TTC

[Blahblah]

And on Sunday I'm cooking a roast leg of lamb with roast potatoes, pumpkin, sweet potato and carrot with broccoli and brussel sprouts.

[jenny_islander]

Oh, awesome. I'm going to try a new dulce chili brownie recipe. You make a batch of cake brownies, but you add a little cinnamon and just a pinch of chili powder to the batter. Then you frost the cooled brownies with dulce de leche.

[tenth muse]

Oh, awesome. I'm going to try a new dulce chili brownie recipe. You make a batch of cake brownies, but you add a little cinnamon and just a pinch of chili powder to the batter. Then you frost the cooled brownies with dulce de leche.

Yum.

[Muriel Heslop]

August and AreteJo: I think it's a misunderstanding, k?

I was thinking the same thing when I read the post about having more children than one could afford. We have a lot of children and right now we can afford them. If hubby lost job or someone became disabled or a child became seriously ill, we could very quickly go to "not able to afford them." An outsider could look at our family in that circumstance and think: well, why did they have all those kids they couldn't afford? Seriously, what is the difference if it's us with more kids than we can afford or a poor/undereducated single mother? I think it's rough to insinuate that a poor person should not have the enjoyment/right of having a child that they "can not afford." My personal opinion is that it's better to provide community education on how to provide for a family, and public resources/facilities, than to throw birth control at them and then browbeat anyone who dares to have a child while poor.

And if I were king, I'd legislate against food deserts and for public transport post haste. I am all too familiar with this poverty-enabling phenomenon in the city where I lived in the USA. Grocery store after grocery store closed in poverty-stricken areas in my city, citing theft costs. There is a HUGE difference between what is available to the public there and what is available here in WA (in terms of transport, markets, small grocers, etc) even though the cost of living is much higher here.

[jenny_islander]

Here's something that I don't know why it isn't a thing: Why aren't there WIC vans?

Say you run $BigHonkingSupermarket at the edge of a food desert. You know that just a few miles thataway are hundreds or thousands of people who could come to your store with warrants for milk, eggs, cheese, beans, peanut butter, formula, tortillas, etc., etc., plus checks good for $6.00 - $10.00 worth of fruits or vegetables. Surely you could get a van, load it with this stuff, and put up flyers announcing that the WIC van will be at the corner of Down and Out at 10:30 on the third Friday of every month? You could move everything in the van, collect (blue-skying a national average here) $40 worth of WIC warrants x 100 people coming to get food, then come to the next block on the following Friday and do it again. And you wouldn't even have to worry about your drivers being robbed, or stealing from you--because all transactions would be done using WIC warrants that were canceled on the spot! You could probably add doorstep deliveries just for people who had to get unusual substitutions for medical reasons and still make money. Your profits go up, you look awesome for helping the adorable babies and tots, everybody wins.

So why is nobody doing this?

[Muriel Heslop]

Here's something that I don't know why it isn't a thing: Why aren't there WIC vans?

Say you run $BigHonkingSupermarket at the edge of a food desert. You know that just a few miles thataway are hundreds or thousands of people who could come to your store with warrants for milk, eggs, cheese, beans, peanut butter, formula, tortillas, etc., etc., plus checks good for $6.00 - $10.00 worth of fruits or vegetables. Surely you could get a van, load it with this stuff, and put up flyers announcing that the WIC van will be at the corner of Down and Out at 10:30 on the third Friday of every month? You could move everything in the van, collect (blue-skying a national average here) $40 worth of WIC warrants x 100 people coming to get food, then come to the next block on the following Friday and do it again. And you wouldn't even have to worry about your drivers being robbed, or stealing from you--because all transactions would be done using WIC warrants that were canceled on the spot! You could probably add doorstep deliveries just for people who had to get unusual substitutions for medical reasons and still make money. Your profits go up, you look awesome for helping the adorable babies and tots, everybody wins.

So why is nobody doing this?

I had the exact same idea except for the WIC part. I wondered why nobody could just take a 40 footer in there every other day with at least some bread and fruit and veg and meat, let the people at least get something with nutrition, you know?

Of course the answer to why nobody is doing this is the same answer as to why anyone does anything: money. It's hard to say whether profits would go up when you factor in fuel, employee costs, exorbitant insurance, etc. I think it would have to be a labor of love, and love is hard to come by.

[OkToBeTakei]

Can you not order your shopping online and have it delivered? All the supermarkets here have this service. There is a cost but it is minimal and with offers and loyalties can be next to nothing. Certainly cheaper than most modes of transport.

[Sumeri]

I shop online and it's fabulous, especially for things I can't find around here. But some of the folks that deal with real poverty, at least here, don't have access to a computer and if they did, they don't have a credit or debit card to pay for it.

I would estimate that at least 40% of the people I deal with at work day to day don't have a computer. We have Bountiful Baskets now, which is fabulous, but requires that you order online - and there is a very, very slim window of opportunity in which to get your order in. If you're at work, well, tough titty.

But, again, I live in a very, very, very remote part of the world.

[longskirtlotsakids]

Madison just did this...they purchased a freshmobile that only took WIC, SNAP and ebt cards, and carried only fresh foods. No snack or refined foods.

The city paid $100+K to sponsor this bus. It was a failure. The residents happily walked past it to the gas station for chips and candy.

[Muriel Heslop]

Can you not order your shopping online and have it delivered? All the supermarkets here have this service. There is a cost but it is minimal and with offers and loyalties can be next to nothing. Certainly cheaper than most modes of transport.

They do here in WA as well but not in the city I lived in in the USA. I could have groc. delivered here for $8 -- which I don't because $8 is a fairly good chunk of my $200 budget. I can't make it stretch far enough unless I go out to the markets, look for discounted meat, etc. In the USA where I lived we didn't even have the option.

[Muriel Heslop]

Madison just did this...they purchased a freshmobile that only took WIC, SNAP and ebt cards, and carried only fresh foods. No snack or refined foods.

The city paid $100+K to sponsor this bus. It was a failure. The residents happily walked past it to the gas station for chips and candy.

I think a point of failure in this scenario is having a bus that only takes WIC, SNAP and ebt. Looks like the poor people bus, really, doesn't it? They need to take cash as well. I'm not saying there isn't a problem with eating habits and addictions, but I am saying that this seems to me to be an obvious point of weakness with this program.

[August]

August and AreteJo: I think it's a misunderstanding, k?

I was thinking the same thing when I read the post about having more children than one could afford. We have a lot of children and right now we can afford them. If hubby lost job or someone became disabled or a child became seriously ill, we could very quickly go to "not able to afford them." An outsider could look at our family in that circumstance and think: well, why did they have all those kids they couldn't afford? Seriously, what is the difference if it's us with more kids than we can afford or a poor/undereducated single mother? I think it's rough to insinuate that a poor person should not have the enjoyment/right of having a child that they "can not afford." My personal opinion is that it's better to provide community education on how to provide for a family, and public resources/facilities, than to throw birth control at them and then browbeat anyone who dares to have a child while poor.

And if I were king, I'd legislate against food deserts and for public transport post haste. I am all too familiar with this poverty-enabling phenomenon in the city where I lived in the USA. Grocery store aftr grocery store closed in poverty-stricken areas in my city, citing theft costs. There is a HUGE difference between what is available to the public there and what is available here in WA (in terms of transport, markets, small grocers, etc) even though the cost of living is much higher here.

Cost of living doesn't measure it. It's the minimum wage and base services which cause this huge poverty in the US. Real universal health care. Real universal welfare. Rent subsidies. Subsidised childcare. Treating adults like adults so they can decide they need to spend some welfare on a car payment instead of on food. And the sad thing is it'll never ever change. They can't even decide to subsidize childcare even though they so badly want people to "get a job".

[alchemy]

They have a little pop up market in a food desert in Seattle. It does well enojgh that they are opening a second one. A fundie friend once posted about littld WIC markets in CA that seem very nice, only the guy wasn't applauding them, he thought it sucked the taxpayer was funding such a thing. Which isnt the case because the stores are a private enterprise.

[Vex]

I have been SCARRED FOR LIFE by this thread.

Jello salad... mayonnaise on pear halves... casseroles involving potato chips...

I don't think I can look at food for at least 24 hours now.

[church_of_dog]

Oh, awesome. I'm going to try a new dulce chili brownie recipe. You make a batch of cake brownies, but you add a little cinnamon and just a pinch of chili powder to the batter. Then you frost the cooled brownies with dulce de leche.

That sounds delicious. I often put a pinch of cayenne pepper in unexpected things. The best was in a pumpkin pie -- gives just a hint of a bite to it. yumm!

[docmom]

Well I just made an orange and apple tea cake from scratch involving butter, eggs, flour, sugar, grated apple and orange juice, and now I'm eating it hot straight from the oven with a lovely cup of tea.

And because it's Friday we shall have takeaway for dinner and appease the offspring with something-and-chips.

Can I come over? (if I wasn't several thousand miles away?)

[docmom]

Also, on the WIC van thing, our city has a large downtown public market which is easily accessible by public transport and attracts people from all walks of life. They recently starting taking WIC and food stamps and have seen a huge increase in their sales of fresh fruit and vegetables to people using these programs. There isn't one correct solution to this problem, though, and no matter what you do some folk will just prefer chips and soda, but that's their choice and we should at least make the effort.

[ShadowyOne]

If you like corn bread, try making the Northern-style recipe (that's what I learned to call it--the recipe that uses some wheat flour with eggs and milk) in a muffin or gem pan, with sour cream or plain yogurt replacing some or all of the milk. The muffins or gems will be moist and tender, with a texture somewhat like pound cake, and they will stay fresh for days. This is a good way to use up the last odd bit of sour cream or yogurt--just spoon it into a measuring cup and fill up the cup with milk.

I made this recipe for tonight's farewell party at church. The sucky part about living here is that so many nice folks are only here for a few years--Coast Guard, Navy, federal contractors. We lost a young couple and their adorable happy little baby.

Adding to baking derail... a couple of things that I do with my cornbread (always very popular, if I do say so myself):

• separate the eggs, whip the whites into soft peaks, and fold them in as the absolute last step when mixing together (the yolks go in at whatever step your recipe calls for)

• experiment with corn meal grinds (a rougher grind will be heartier, a finer grind will be lighter and fluffier). Sometimes I even replace up to half the cornmeal with corn flour.

• always use a very hot cast iron pan or baking mold (I got a round cast iron scone/cornbread pan that's internally divided into wedges for Christmas-love it!)

I always use buttermilk, not milk or sour cream, but I may try the sour cream trick.

[Arete]

I can get my groceries delivered through Stop&Shop for a 5 dollar charge. Which is what I did when my mother was recovering from surgery. She was thrilled with the service because she actually got very high quality produce and veggies. She had expressed a lot of misgivings about not being able to look before it was bought. It looks like ShopRite might launch the same type of service in this state. I have no idea if the service is available in other states that Stop&Shop does business in, and don't know anything about other regions grocery chains.

[OkToBeTakei]

I can get my groceries delivered through Stop&Shop for a 5 dollar charge. Which is what I did when my mother was recovering from surgery. She was thrilled with the service because she actually got very high quality produce and veggies. She had expressed a lot of misgivings about not being able to look before it was bought. It looks like ShopRite might launch the same type of service in this state. I have no idea if the service is available in other states that Stop&Shop does business in, and don't know anything about other regions grocery chains.

That was always my concern, the picking my own produce. In all honesty apart from one mistake with the wrong sort of broccoli, no problems. All the supermarkets here offer the service except a couple. Asda Tesco Sainsbury, the ones I've used. Refrigerated delivery vans either bagged or basket and straight to your kitchen.

Between public transport or this type of service you really need to live in the Outer Hebrides to be in a food desert here. Although they get a good service I believe.

It just sounds to me that in some way the system is set up in the US to feed/cause this problem. Seems complex with the welfare system, lack of public transport structure and the fast food chains cashing in. Such a huge country.

Do you have Dial-a-bus for the over 60's? Or is that similar or linked to lack of bus routes.

[Arete]

In my county, yes we do have a dial-a-bus service that will pick up seniors at their door and get them to shopping centers. Some hospitals also have private bus/van services to get people to their appointments. For instance, my mom used this service to get to her daily radiation appointments. I don't think it's all counties and definitely not all hospitals. Those routes are usually the first things to go if a county is in a budget crisis.

There are quite a few things feeding the public transport problem in the States, but few people want to acknowledge that it is sometimes the taxpayers themselves. A lot of suburban communities purposely keep out bus routes and public transport routes. The reason is quite simple, they want to keep poorer people out or limit their access. No one in a bedroom community in Northern New Jersey is going to admit they don't want a bus route because they are afraid that poor people from Newark are going to come and rob them, but that is a big fear. The other is the car culture. In suburbs, it is usually a given that they are designed for people with cars. The only suburbs designed with mass transit routes are the ones where the majority of residents can be expected to be working in large cities, like New York or Philadelphia. So I grew up in a suburb of New York City, and buses and trains were second nature because so many people's parents worked in NYC, including mine. I was shocked when I went to college and met people who had NEVER been on a bus or train. It wouldn't occur to them that they should have bus or train access.

If you live within Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Washington, (just cities I am familiar with), you use public transit. The further into the suburbs you are, the fewer people who actually work in the city, the more hostile the community to public transport. It doesn't occur to a 40 year old that they will not always be able to drive, or that not everyone can drive, because the community itself is designed to KEEP OUT non drivers.

[Shoes Grace]

In my county, there's paratransit, for seniors and those with disabilities. It's a demand service (meaning they'll come get you and take you wherever), but I think there are a bunch of strings attached. I think it doesn't run late evenings or weekends, I know none of our non-driving senior theatre attendees use the service. You also have to qualify for it, one person making less than $845 a month.

All kinds of shops used to deliver in the US, my dad remembers his aunt had everything delivered, my grandmother had fewer things, so there was a small service charge, but he doesn't know what it was (speculates it was probably between 3-5 cents in the 50s when he was very young). There are grocery delivery services popping up again now, and I don't know for sure, but I think if you kept up on coupons and considered what you ordered, it'd be almost as cheap to simply get Jimmy John's and the various pizza places to provide your every meal.

[August]

It doesn't help that rent and property vales are directly tied to availability of public transport.

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

Who knew a tater tot thread would get so heated?

I hadn't read the thread but when I saw it was 11 pages I knew something was going ok. Aka peanut butter wars.

I'm Australian, grew up in 80s/90s my parents were health freaks, never had cream of anything or convenience meals. So this thread is actually quite enlightening. Thanks :)

[Blahblah]

Can I come over? (if I wasn't several thousand miles away?)

You would have been welcome! The cake is gone now (good excuse to make a new one) and the fish & chips were salty and yummy.