Superficial gender notions?

[Rosa]

Even if you keep a totally gender-neutral home, the culture is so overwhemlingly gendered, your kids will totally get that.

My little boy loves pink. He'll lie and say he only likes "boy colors" (he's six. If he can't think of a specific color, he just says "the boy one") but he will always choose pink and glittery if no one is looking.

Totally aside from the gender policing of other kids - which started when he was about 3 - all the adults in the world are busy making it their business. My mom took him to the store to buy underpants when he was potty training. He wanted pink ribbons. He chose girls underpants. My mom called me (at work!) and I talked her into it. Then she got up to the cash register and the salesgirl talked her out of them. When I worked retail, I saw adults refuse to buy primary-colored socks because the sales receipt said "girls socks".

We have been in toy stores where someone ELSE's grandpa said to him "oh you don't want that car, that's a Barbie car, here is a race car you should look at."

We have been in the park and some other kid's mom said "Did you take those fairy wings from that little girl?" No, lady, they're HIS.

So one year of school, and he's given up on it. Except that when he does craft projects at home he absolutely covers them in pink glitter.

That's why some parents try to purge their homes of the gender crap; because it's the one place you actually CAN get rid of most of it.

[Feberin]

If you go to any store selling baby gear and toys you will see the girl things and the normal things. You will be hard pressed to find a car seat with trucks and cars on the cover, for example - but there is no shortage of pink floral patterned ones.

I've noticed that too. I also wanted to say that while I will dress according to gender I do put my son in some dressy clothes that are in my husband's opinion girly like a velvet embroidered outfit he wore last Christmas with a lacy sweater (my MIL's friend knit it there is no way I wasn't going to have him wear it). If we have a girl someday she will wear dresses but she'll also have lots of my son's hand me downs including NFL things since my husband is obcessed with football and those things are expensive so we're not going out to buy the girl versions (we also both think the pink football jerseys are stupid since the whole point of the jerseys is to dress like the players and they don't wear pink).

Most of all I hate all the character stuff. We have way too much stuff we've gotten as gifts that are Disney type things like a Buzz from toy story. Which is funny since my son has never seen toy story. Even his snack containers have Transformers (I bought those because they were on clearance and I wasn't going to pay more just to get a plain one). We have a bunch of Toy Story clothes that I think I'm going to consign. It just seems silly to put them on my son when he doesn't know what they are and he already has a lot of clothes. When he's older and has a favorite character that's one thing but for a 1 year old who does't watch tv or movies it just seems silly.

[Mommy22alyns]

It's even more prevalent now than it was just 8 years ago. When my oldest was a baby, she was not covered in pink. We had a gender-neutral nursery, the basic primary color blocks and shape sorter, and a bunch of handed down baby clothes in various colors. Oh and her carseat was BLUE! Egads!

Guess what happened when she was about three? Princess. overload. :shock: She's a girly girly girl. But luckily she still loves to climb and flip and play soccer, has a great spirit and fashion sense, and loves science. So I can handle it. ;)

My younger daughter got a little more pink but still had a gender-neutral carseat & stroller. It just wasn't all pink like it is now. She was a fan of Rocket from Little Einsteins, so she ended up wearing some boy things due to that.

Oh and both girls are being properly trained in the love of baseball. :mrgreen:

Gosh, I almost forgot about the horrible way video games and board games are geared toward girls! Fix my nails and go shopping at the mall? Vomit! And I love shopping, but that is NOT what I want to cultivate in my girls, KWIM? We get basic, fun, and educational games - Great States, Monopoly, checkers, etc.

[Rosa]

OTOH, I do agree with whoever said that at least part of the pink hatred is misogynistic.

And Pretty Pretty Princess is one of the best adult drinking games EVAR.

[Maggie Mae]

Lurky. :D

Ahh thanks! That was driving me crazy!

[darkplumaged]

Maybe it was just my perspective because we have all boys, but this all didn't seem so pronounced 20 years ago as it seems now... I remember my husband lying down with him on his toddler bed at night softly singing to him, "Dorn, go away, you're no good for me" :lol: (FJers of a certain age will get that).

I'm not of a certain age, and I got that! :lol: Almost choked on a potato chip.

No, "gendering" of toys and clothes wasn't as pronounced 20 years ago, when my sister was little, and even less so 30 years ago, when I was little. I loved Legos and Tinker Toys, but I also collected Cabbage Patch Kids. I wasn't into Barbies when I was very young, nor traditional baby dolls.

I never wore pink when I was a baby, at least not according to our photo album. I had brown, green, and red overalls and wore a non-ruffly yellow dress on my first birthday. My mom bought boys' jeans for me when I was in preschool because they had reinforced knees.

Reflecting on this, it's kind of funny: my mom is very fashion-conscious, feminine in dress and interests, and she was so happy to have a girl for her first child. It's surprising, then, that she didn't go all pink... and I bet it's because it wasn't as easy to do back then.

[ChickeyMonkey]

I can't remember what show I was watching at the time, but I would try to recreate it in the bathtub with my barbies. I would take their arms and legs off, but almost always couldn't put them back on without help - it was just too hard. Maybe I was watching the Bionic Woman, or something, I don't know.

My dad and step mom redid the room that I stayed in when I visited every other weekend. The before picture was as if the 70's hit the place: shag carpeting of a color I don't remember, and gold and black wallpaper that had some kind of design that looked like it was supposed to be one of those optical illusions: hourglass or half circles? you be the judge. Then, they decided to modernize the place (this was in the early 90's). The 70's had moved out and Pink had taken over almost everything. I hated pink. With a passion. Probably because I was such a tomboy and I was tired of people (read: dad and step mom) trying to girlify me. I've come to like certain hues of pink, but I still prefer blues, greens, and purples.

If I'm buying a clothing gift for someone who's having a girl and I know the parents are into the whole girl=pink mindset, I try to find something that's in a shade of purple but even THAT'S hard to find!

Also, for those of us who have boys, have you noticed that a lot of the boy clothes aren't as cute as the girl clothes? Who do these people think dress the boys? One year I was in Baby Gap looking at the clearance section (I'd rarely buy from there, even from the clearance section because it's still too expensive) and all the fall clothing options were what I called Farmer John: plaid. I hate plaid. It was just ugly and so unsophisticated somehow. I get most my kids' clothes from Target because I love Target. :)

My oldest had a pink Dora plastic dufflebag, and one of those 2000-in-one game sets: checkers! bingo!, memory! etc! that came in a wooden box that had an opening in one side so that everything could be stored inside, as well as using the surface for checkers, etc. I'm so glad the Dora stage is over because she is an annoying pain in the ass who never uses her inside voice. EVER.

When I was little I wanted the Voltron toy that had the different tiger things combine to make one big robot. I wanted that soooooooo bad! I never got it though, but I think I had something smaller where the individual animals (or whatever they were) folded/transformed into something else, but I don't think they were *thee* Transformers. Maybe they *were* Voltron toys, after looking at some websites.

I also got something like this for my birthday when I was little, but I think it was one that came broken straight out of the box, but I didn't get a replacement for some reason. That was a real bummer.

[Austin]

I'm not of a certain age, and I got that! :lol: Almost choked on a potato chip.

I lived it and it still makes me giggle out loud :lol:

[Feberin]

Also, for those of us who have boys, have you noticed that a lot of the boy clothes aren't as cute as the girl clothes? Who do these people think dress the boys? One year I was in Baby Gap looking at the clearance section (I'd rarely buy from there, even from the clearance section because it's still too expensive) and all the fall clothing options were what I called Farmer John: plaid. I hate plaid. It was just ugly and so unsophisticated somehow. I get most my kids' clothes from Target because I love Target

I agree. Also why is always "I love my mommy" for boys and "I love my daddy for girls"?

[clibbyjo]

Boys clothes suck! I bought cutesy striped one piece outfits for my boys from Hanna Anderson and baby gap because I could not stand the usual sports or trucks which are all boys are supposed to like.I bought them as far up as the sizes went(maybe 24months)and they wore them to death.I then bought a lot of crazy retro stuff for my youngest who was wearing plaid bell bottoms and Ramones t-shirts at age 4 because nothing was his style and he liked crazy stuff. Now my boys are 9 and 15 and they both wear skinny jeans and "cool" t-shirts so its easier. I still don't like the lack of choice for boys. My youngest will wear girls skinny white jeans and sometimes girls t-shirts because the cut is small enough for him and he likes the ones with fake ties and vests printed on them.

[Rosa]

Clibbyjo, my little guy likes "fancy" and the only form of "fancy" in the boys section seems to be flames on things, like a hot rod.

So last summer i was complaining about this at a bbq, and one of the other guests was a designer for Target. She designed a little boys t-shirt with a sparkly bicycle on it after she heard my rant, and got all sorts of good recognition because it sold out almost instantly.

Boys like pretty clothes!

[Mommy22alyns]

I agree. Also why is always "I love my mommy" for boys and "I love my daddy for girls"?

Aggghh, exactly! This drives me so nuts!

[ChickeyMonkey]

Clibbyjo, my little guy likes "fancy" and the only form of "fancy" in the boys section seems to be flames on things, like a hot rod.

So last summer i was complaining about this at a bbq, and one of the other guests was a designer for Target. She designed a little boys t-shirt with a sparkly bicycle on it after she heard my rant, and got all sorts of good recognition because it sold out almost instantly.

Boys like pretty clothes!

That's so cool! The boys' clothes are usually pretty cool at Target. Now I just wish the T-shirts in the juniors'/women's section had regular crew necks instead of the huuuuge v-necks and scoop necks. There are also some cute graphic tees in the girls' section that I wish they'd offer in adult sizes.

(Did I use the apostrophes correctly? Usually I know what I'm doing, but sometimes I'm not sure).

[fundyfunland]

Now that the manifesto is out of the way. I am assuming the these 'feminists' you are talking about are of the "sure my boy can do girly things, but I refuse to let my girl do girly things" variety. I put 'feminist' in quotations because I personally, don't consider them feminists any more than the "but men have to change first, I can't doing anything about it because I'm a woman" feminists. In short, they act like they are proponents of equality, but every time one of them opens their mouth to espouse their view point, the chauvinists cheer. The reason being that they are teaching the exact same things the patriarchy (hate that word BTW, just can't think of an alternative) they so dearly hate has been teaching for centuries... That being feminine just isn't good enough because it's not masculine. These radical feminists make me want to hurt someone. Just because I can see how they are inhibiting the progression of women's rights. Even worse, when they want to do to men, the same thing they fight against being done to women.

I agree w/ most of what you say. I used to think feminine=bad, as some feminists believe, but have grown to appreciate, being a women & doing "feminine things" (as well as "masculine things).

BTW, as a former Women's Studies major - I think the feminists you're referring to that you hate so much, tend to be classified as "liberal feminists." Many radical feminists actually have the same views as you.

[ladypuglover]

Aggghh, exactly! This drives me so nuts!

And back in the day when my 2 oldest were tiny babies, all I could find for either sex was " I love my Daddy."

[lilah]

I am dealing with this a little bit with my two year old niece, she already is a big fan of cute clothes and wearing pink. She knows how to say "pretty dress" and "you look cute." In fact last month she told me "Your shirt is pink! I like it" to my old ratty pink shirt. and wanting respect her taste and opinions but also challenge her to see life beyond the pink girly girl stuff. And it's a bit compounded by the fact that is is multiracial. WHen she comes over to visit she likes to play with this old cabbage patch doll. The doll is white. I was torn between getting her a set of blocks or getting her a doll that looks like her. But I decided to get her a doll that looked like her, and a book about a little girl who looked like her.

[Rosa]

Lilah, have you ever seen this book, More, More, More said the baby? My son LOVED it when he was 2, and it has a multiracial family (white grandma of a dark-skinned grandbaby) in it.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/068814 ... GPMM2RQ1V4

[lilah]

too cute! I might have to get her that one! I got her this book, I love my hair http://www.amazon.com/Love-Hair-Natasha ... 0316522759 and her family reads it to her when they are doing her hair.

[ChickeyMonkey]

too cute! I might have to get her that one! I got her this book, I love my hair http://www.amazon.com/Love-Hair-Natasha ... 0316522759 and her family reads it to her when they are doing her hair.

Sometimes I wish I had an afro. I think of the air being able to reach my scalp (or maybe not. Hey, it's my fantasy) and not having it touch my neck, which makes me hot. There are drawbacks to any type of hair, I know, but I like to think of all the things I could have done to my hair if I had hair like that. Mine is straight and fine, yet thick - as in, I have a lot of it. It doesn't hold a curl and just lays there.

Sorry to derail, although I do have an incident that relates to my hair and the whole gender thing.

One Christmas when I was around 10 or 11, my dad and step mom gave me this ugly plaid Christmas outfit. It had a ruffly cotton shirt (the ruffles were down the button area, whatever that's called) and horrible red plaid pants with a wide black elastic waistband. Looking back, I wasn't fat, but I wasn't skinny either. I've just never liked things tight on my waist (except when I was like 3 or 4 and would cinch my belt as tightly around my waist as I could. Little kids are weird, that's all I can say) and these pants were uncomfortable. Also, except for a short period in elementary school, I've never really liked wearing pants either. I have OCD issues with fabrics and how they feel on my skin, plus I get hot really easily, so I've always worn short.

Anyway, they got me this ugly Christmas outfit that I had to wear to go see Fiddler on the Roof, but it wasn't at a nice theater, it was at like a high school or elementary auditorium. Hey, I like FotR, I just didn't see the point of dressing up - especially if it's a waaaay off-Broadway production, you know? Folding chairs and cafeteria benches? Not even in Broadway's galaxy.

The box the clothing abomination came in had a wreath-shaped candy cane on it, and the candy cane had a ribbon wrapped around it in that same ugly plaid that the clothes were in. My dad put that damn ribbon in my hair like I was Josie Duggar. My hair was short and in a boyish cut because I was a tomboy and didn't like long hair. My hair is also very straight and fine, so hair accessories rarely stay put for very long. Apparently the bow fell out of my hair while I was waiting around to leave and my dad &/or step mom asked me if I'd taken it out on purpose. I hadn't, but was pissed that they thought I did.

I know it doesn't sound like that big of a deal, but I was a compliant child who didn't like getting in trouble or getting yelled at or being put on the spot for unwanted attention. My dad and step mom don't really know my personality because I've never felt "safe" in being the silly, goofy, not-always-appropriate person that I am (I was watching SNL reruns when I was little, not really knowing what the show was, but liked it. I also watched Comedy Central constantly, and at an age when most kids weren't). Nothing like being ridiculed because you like raunchy comedy and playing sports with boys when that's not what girls are supposed to like and do.

Of course, my dad and step mom had to take a picture in that ugly outfit. They said they got me pants instead of the skirt because they remembered I didn't like skirts. I guess they get points for that, but all points are forfeited for choosing such an ugly outfit to begin with. I would've rather had the skirt, actually, because they had the heat on high and I was roasting, but whatever. It's over and I'm sure I have the picture somewhere around here or at my mom's house.

[Terrie]

Ironically, 100 years ago, pink was considered a good, strong color for boys, and blue was the gentle, girly color.

[Guest Anonymous]

Ironically, 100 years ago, pink was considered a good, strong color for boys, and blue was the gentle, girly color.

And at civil war reenactments, my son wears a DRESS. I love it.

I HATE HATE HAATE "sports" themed crap for little boys. I won't allow it in my house. (Nor will I allow most disney things, which I feel awful about because he gets a lot as gifts but meh, oh well)

If I ever have a girl, anything "Disney Princess" will be immediately either thrown in the trash or donated. Not even opened, GONE. I hate that shit. I get crap from my family all the time for thinking that Disney is a bunch of crap, but marketing to 3 year olds? that's just fucking evil . And she will wear my son's camo-dinosaur hand me downs. Oh yes.

[pomology]

And at civil war reenactments, my son wears a DRESS. I love it.

I HATE HATE HAATE "sports" themed crap for little boys. I won't allow it in my house. (Nor will I allow most disney things, which I feel awful about because he gets a lot as gifts but meh, oh well)

If I ever have a girl, anything "Disney Princess" will be immediately either thrown in the trash or donated. Not even opened, GONE. I hate that shit. I get crap from my family all the time for thinking that Disney is a bunch of crap, but marketing to 3 year olds? that's just fucking evil . And she will wear my son's camo-dinosaur hand me downs. Oh yes.

Obvs. Every little kid should be dressed in dinosaur-related clothing.

[ADoyle90815]

One thing about my niece is that she loves the Disney Cars movies, so her bedroom is decorated with Cars things, yet she doesn't like having her hands dirty, and she picks out her own shoes before going anywhere. Her favorite shoes are either Dora ones, or more often, pink sequined shoes that she's had for a while, so it will be interesting to see if she gets another pair once she outgrows those. She hates anything in her hair, and has pouted when my SIL managed to put a bobby pin in to hold her bangs out of her eyes.

[Terrie]

BTW, as a former Women's Studies major - I think the feminists you're referring to that you hate so much, tend to be classified as "liberal feminists." Many radical feminists actually have the same views as you.

Really? I tend to associate radical feminism, in the academic sense, with Dworkin and MacKinnon, who can be very anti-male in certain contexts. Those who identify with radical feminism and who are not academics are even worse, and as dogmatic as any fundie.

(Not saying you're wrong, just more trying to understand the issue).

[mnb357]

Honestly, with our first, (boy) my husband was all over the sweater vests and khakis...then he took over diaper changing. By the time we had our third in four years, my husband streamlined the process, and dressed all in plain white t-shirts and diapers, and we were all happier for it, ESPECIALLY the kids who had freedom of movement. In terms of toys, well, cardboard boxes were (and still are) a straight shot to Nirvana for them, and as far as I know, are gender neutral. So are Legos and Play Doh, which they all play with constantly.

I agree with the person who said "no way" to sports themed rooms for boys. I hate to say it, but I think it's idolatry. And, Disney Princesses? Why do I want my daughter to go to sleep amid marketing? My boys each chose plain white walls and low tables for legos, crayons and the like. My girl chose a green and purple room, white canopy bed, and dolls with doll beds. Her favorite spot is her desk, where she draws with markers and crayons ALL THE TIME. Again, with the exception of dolls and canopy bed, they lean towards gender neutral, open play sort of toys.