Overcoming SOTDRT educational neglect?

[RachelB]

Not snark per se--

One of my favorite advice blogs, Captain Awkward, is taking a question from an advice-seeker whose younger brother was "educated" by (reading between the lines, I'd guess fundamentalist) parents who'd gotten tired of actual homeschooling and who now, as an adult, doesn't know some of the basics and is really unmotivated to learn.

The conversation can be found here: captainawkward.com/2014/08/01/605-how-do-i-help-my-home-schooled-brother-get-the-education-he-should-have-had-as-a-kid/

Reading it raised some questions for me. Specifically:

FJ grads of the school of the dining room table, what helped you overcome educational neglect?

Teachers who've successfully helped motivate students who'd been previously educationally neglected, what worked for you?

[keen23]

I am neither, but I think that A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn is a great book to read.

[chaotic life]

My second oldest is still struggling with this very issue. However, we got custody of him just before he turned 15, so we not only had the ability to advocate for him, but we've been able to utilize the public school system to do so.

His first year in school, he actually was on P/F for grades and spent the year learning how to socialize, how to feel normal, and how to acclimate to being taught an education. They started working on the reading and math remedial work at that point.

His second year, he started academics which were at times hard for him. He did summer school this summer, not because he bombed in his second year but we moved halfway across the country and he lacked enough credits to be promoted to the next grade because of how the first school structured his academics.

This year, he will be mostly caught up, though he is a slow reader and still has major educational gaps. I just met with the HS Principal and Vice Principal last week to start developing a plan of attack for this upcoming school year. We will be meeting with his teachers, and the Principal will be stressing to all of them the need to catch and address educational gaps quickly.

Everyone from the Superintendent down is aware of kiddo's situation in some capacity, and everyone is in his corner to help him succeed. Superintendent has sworn they WILL get him through, and she intends to come to his HS graduation.

Because of how hard this is, and how much work he puts into fixing this, his career goal is to earn a Criminal Justice Associates degree and find a job that will earn him a living. While I believe he is capable of earning a Bachelor's degree, he states he will consider that after he has a chance to take a break from academics, because he still has to work SOOO hard to overcome what was done to him.

While I have homeschooled other children, for me one of the big things was NOT homeschooling this one. He didn't have time for me to fumble and learn and needed the expert support of educators. That choice has paid off well in how he is thriving now.

[RachelB]

...

His first year in school, he actually was on P/F for grades and spent the year learning how to socialize, how to feel normal, and how to acclimate to being taught an education. They started working on the reading and math remedial work at that point.

That is such a great idea. Acclimating to a setting so different from what he was used to must have been a major accomplishment in its own right.

[chaotic life]

It really, really was a HUGE acclimation for him. He had been isolated from even homeschooling peers in the first adoptive home, so he had no understanding of US culture or US teens. He didn't get the concept of getting to class on time even. In fact, to teach him how to quit dwaddling and constantly meandering in late to class, his teachers began to issue the same consequences as they did for other students (written warnings, third written warning resulted in detention). Meanwhile at home, we told him if he could go a month without any tardy warnings for any class, he could earn a TV for his bedroom. By the end of earning his TV, he had learned to be on time for classes without feeling stupid or being told and not fully listening repeatedly. But, he seriously had to be taught this skill, and that was just ONE skill he had to be taught.

[ViolaSebastian]

I was educated by the ebil public schools, but I've had clients that have overcome educational deficits (acquired either through a lack of homeschooling, poor public schools, lack of effort/dropping out of school). I would really recommend that this man seek out a good community college in his area. Many community colleges are uniquely equipped to handle the challenges of students from a wide variety of backgrounds, with remedial classes to help out in subjects such as math and reading. I know the one in my town has a class in remedial math that starts at about the 8th or 9th grade level, pre-algebra sort of stuff. This will allow him to feel more independent but still be responsible for learning the coursework, etc. Most I've found offer free (with the price of a class, naturally) tutoring if a student is having particular issues with a class. It's also nice that a community college class will be less expensive than a regular college course, and therefore less of a financial hit.

The problem is that the man in question at this point doesn't have the motivation to learn--and sadly, there's not much the brother can do about it. Maybe when the brother of the letter writers finally realizes that the army won't accept him at the education level at which he is currently operating, he'll get the desire to buckle down and put forth the effort, but the issue here is more than one of education--there's other issues going on here as well.

[Full enough quiver]

I did sotdrt through 8th grade, then moved in with my grandma, who said it was "not her job to teach me". I didn't like being ignorant, and I didn't want my daughter to be ashamed of how dumb I was, so I went to the library every two weeks, and checked out my limit of 10 books. And I read them. I used to read those illustrated children's classics, which are exactly what they sound like, classic literature, edited and dumbed down a bit for children. This way I read Moby Dick, Great Expectations, White Fang, all sorts of things. Eventually, I read the real versions. I bought some used math, history, and science textbooks and studied them. (Nothing too exciting, elementary level stuff, but enough to get the gist) sometimes I would find used Cliffs notes at the library sale. I would buy them, and check out the book at the same time. I watched educational tv, like the news, and pbs. I rented videos from the library, documentaries and nature videos mostly. At 16, I took my ged, and passed with flying colors.

When the boys came to live with us, they hadn't been taught anything. The younger one (7) didn't even know his letters, and the older one (9) could read a little, but not much. Neither one could add or subtract. The younger one couldn't count. So we started at the beginning. Neither boy was used to sitting still to learn, so I knew drills and worksheets wouldn't work. I also knew that they couldn't learn until they felt loved and secure, and until they felt self confident. So I bought computer games, like reader rabbit, that sort of thing. The boys were playing, and they were learning. I praised every new skill, every level passed. We had story time every night, where I would read, following with my finger, with a boy snuggled on either side, while the girls got cozy with their own books. We added and subtracted using money. We multiplied and divided with pennies. We went to the museum, the beach, the mountains. We watched discovery channel and animal planet. Once they became confident readers, I bought some children's encyclopedias. They love animals, so I got a subscription for zoobooks. It must be working, because their last test scores show that, not only are they at grade level, the older one is in the 90th percentile, and the younger one in the 75th. My sister claimed that they were learning disabled. I call absolute bullshit.

[apple1]

Fullenoughquiver,

Many kudos to you.

You brought up one of my personal biggies - regardless of the past or current educational situation. READING. And reading. And reading...

Of course, other education is required, but reading is just so, so very important. (Even for kids in "ideal" situations).

[Antimony]

Illustrated classics are the best. I have a few different versions of different things -- like a simplified comic of The Odyssey that is fantastic. I also have King Lear, as the complete text, but in comic book format. It's a fantastic way to read Shakespeare if you can't watch it at the time -- the context given by the imagery just seals the deal (and makes the jokes actually laugh-out-loud like they would be on stage).

One thing I really like right now is Khan Academy. I would suggest it to everybody, everywhere, forever. You can learn pretty much anything from 3rd grade math to college differential equations. It's mostly Youtube videos but they are in 10 minute lengths -- it helps you not get tired because it's nicely formatted in little snippets of lessons as opposed to a long lecture. There are also games and it rewards you with points/badges (space themed!) when you watch a certain number of videos or get enough math problems right. It is really amazing. They have math, chemistry, biology, art history, history, finance, economics, and programming (and more that I can't remember off the top of my head). I've had a standard, if not above average pre-college education, but I'm using it right now to review GRE level math (I'm a math minor so it's been a long time I've seen this stuff, it's basic, but man trigonometry always messed with me and having to do it without sin/cos/tan just irks me so bad.)

Pretty much every college student here I know uses it and children use it and it's just friendly for everybody. And totally free. You can also coach another person on it and track their activity/progress. I used it to teach myself an entire course of integral calculus before my freshman year of college.

Also now there are Youtube lecturers like SciShow and CrashCourse and It's Okay to be Smart. I think those are great even for students struggling because you can *pause* the lecture, which you cannot do in a classroom format. (Same with Khan Academy -- he can write out a problem, I pause the video, try to solve it, and then hit play and watch his method of solving.)

Other than this though, I don't know much about different forms of schooling but Khan Academy is a good motivator (for me at least, because of the point rewards that adds a game aspect) and illustrated anything can really change a classic. I also wonder if we shouldn't start having more classes at lower levels that examine what's going on in pop culture. Things like fanfiction and examinations of popular shows for symbolism and theme are HUGE right now with 13 year olds and up (any age, really) and it's considered very non-academic but writing that kind of stuff probably really does have value. I mean, I guess it's hard to say I'm really getting an education out of watching my shows but House MD had me on Wikipedia all the time and learning about chelation treatments, Sherlock had me reading and rereading Doyle's original works looking for allusions and discrepancies, Game of Thrones had me looking up examples of embroidery from years gone by (the costume work is amazing and I had to know more). I think there is motivation there if you approach it from the right angle and it can help motivate you to dig through the harder things that aren't as exciting. I feel like I'm babbling now, but I stand by my Khan Academy advice.

[MissSeptember]

I am a special education teacher. I second the Khan Academy suggestion and cannot recommend this highly enough. For someone trying to supplement or enhance their education, or review information learned years ago to help a child with their homework, this method of learning is ideal.

The ability to pause and rewatch the videos is key. Users can comment and post questions. Like the previous poster said, a wide, wide variety of subjects are available. And it is all free!

Unfortunately, my school blocks this and many other sites (such as youtube), but I remind my students and parents regularly to watch the videos at home. Sometimes I email a link to a parent (if I know they use email). It is such a great resource.

[RachelB]

One thing I really like right now is Khan Academy. I would suggest it to everybody, everywhere, forever. You can learn pretty much anything from 3rd grade math to college differential equations. It's mostly Youtube videos but they are in 10 minute lengths -- it helps you not get tired because it's nicely formatted in little snippets of lessons as opposed to a long lecture. There are also games and it rewards you with points/badges (space themed!) when you watch a certain number of videos or get enough math problems right. It is really amazing. They have math, chemistry, biology, art history, history, finance, economics, and programming (and more that I can't remember off the top of my head). I've had a standard, if not above average pre-college education, but I'm using it right now to review GRE level math (I'm a math minor so it's been a long time I've seen this stuff, it's basic, but man trigonometry always messed with me and having to do it without sin/cos/tan just irks me so bad.)

Cool!

Advising at the school where I'm a grad student is spotty, so I occasionally have former students contact me to ask how to handle stuff like preparing for GREs. I'll be passing on this suggestion.

[Walking Cat Bed]

I used Khan Academy to review my math skills for the GRE. I found the overall sections better than the concept sections (I'd get four out of five long-division questions right, then get one wrong and have to start over again) until I needed to focus on something specific. It's good stuff.

[skrmom]

I knew a family that had "educational custody" of their nieces. Apparently, the two girls were supposed to be home schooled, but both tested far below grade level. I don't know if their parents were intellectually, financially, or other reason not teaching the girls. Anyway, their aunt-a public school teacher would pick them up Monday morning and the girls went to school thru Friday and they spent the weekends with their parents.

[Jana814]

I knew a family that had "educational custody" of their nieces. Apparently, the two girls were supposed to be home schooled, but both tested far below grade level. I don't know if their parents were intellectually, financially, or other reason not teaching the girls. Anyway, their aunt-a public school teacher would pick them up Monday morning and the girls went to school thru Friday and they spent the weekends with their parents.

Interesting I didn't know that was possible (educational custody).

[crazyforkate]

My sister was the world's laziest homeschooler, and her kids all entered high school with the barest of skills. The oldest three never really managed to make it up, and had to have adaptive classes, though they all did graduate high school. However, all of them could have done a lot more had they had the right skills - not just academic stuff, but how to study, how to manage their time, etc- taught to them properly from an early age. It really limited what they could do and they have all expressed frustration at their mother for being so half-assed.

The youngest, however, managed to beg her mother to let her go to school earlier than the others, and entered Grade 4 more or less illiterate. You know what helped her? Harry freakin' Potter. She became a total Potterhead and it really motivated her to learn to read as quickly as possible. She was caught up to her grade level in a year or so. Go figure.

[Full enough quiver]

Honestly, the bottom line is that no one can motivate a person, especially an adult to learn. I know my two older sisters are practically illiterate, as are the two younger than me. The youngest 3 are a little better, but I'm the only one who wentcto college. (I have my AS, big deal)

I really think reading is the key. If nothing else, a kid who loves to read is automatically better off. I was lucky, because I loved reading, and was fairly naturally bright and inquisitive. My daughter is like I was, she has tested as "highly gifted", works at high school level or higher. Everyone is amazed by how brilliant she is, and we nurture that. Sometimes I get really mad the way my parents handicapped me.

I'm not opposed to homeschooling, being a homeschooling mom myself, but these fundie moms having a baby every year cannot possibly be properly educating their eleventy children. I remember as a kid that each time mom had a baby, all pretense of schooling was abandoned for the first trimester due to morning sickness, then the last trimester because mom was tired. Then the first 6 months mom had to care for an infant. That's a year per baby. We missed two years when my brothers were born. We missed a year and a half when my sister was born prematurely.

I was doing fine with the two girls. Then the older one started high school, and the boys joined our family. It was extremely challenging with 3 all at different levels. Honestly, I thought about enrolling the boys in public school, but they were so behind academically, behaviorally, and emotionally, their self worth was already so low that I felt school would do more harm than good. Now we have settled into a good routine, and it works well.

[sockinshoe]

I have to say that reading (even reading allowed) cannot be overestimated. By hearing or reading well written works you get a feel for how to organize thoughts, how to use pacing, and how to create beautiful sentences with rich language. I grew up moving around a lot, and often lived in places where neither of my mother tongues were represented. Books helped keep me up to speed with my relatives and "back home" friends. Otherwise, I have to recommend TedTalks as a way to get people excited about learning. Whether the talk is about psychology, biology, or magic, there's always something inspiring. For math, I also recommend Wolfram Alpha as a resource (it's basically a computational machine/dictionary of math). Another (slightly cheat-y) resource is Simple English Wikipedia. It's Wikipedia articles, simplified for laymen. It's fabulous as a form of Cliff Notes.

[freejingerbeth]

I am neither, but I think that A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn is a great book to read.

Love that book! Read it as part of a sociology class, in 1987.

[merrily]

IMy sister claimed that they were learning disabled. I call absolute bullshit.

You could also replace that with Michelle Duggar. I'm sure that the Howlers aren't dyslexic, they just aren't taught. :cry:

[utter solitude]

The problem is that the man in question at this point doesn't have the motivation to learn--and sadly, there's not much the brother can do about it. Maybe when the brother of the letter writers finally realizes that the army won't accept him at the education level at which he is currently operating, he'll get the desire to buckle down and put forth the effort, but the issue here is more than one of education--there's other issues going on here as well.

[color=#660066

]^^^^THIS. I used to be a math tutor at my community college. They offer math courses starting with the basics (algrebra I and up) as well as pre-math courses staring with the basics (whole numbers, decimals, etc) the good thing is these developmental courses also include study skills and time management.

I learned that different people are motivated differently. I tutored people who came from other countries and simply had not learned the way we do in the US, or at all, and were adjusting to how their college experience would work. I tutored a few homeschooled cases who were the same way. On the flip side, I tutored a number of people who were solely motivated by their end goal - they were getting a certificate or degree simply to get a specific job. Either it was something they had their heart set on, or it was required by their employer. These individuals had the toughest time. They weren't learning to learn, they saw going to school as an obstacle.

[julie paradox]

trigonometry always messed with me and having to do it without sin/cos/tan just irks me so bad

I'm totally confused.

I have a maths degree (over twenty years ago, mind) and I would have said that trigonometry is ABOUT sin/cos/tan - the ratios relating lengths and angles.

What precisely are you talking about?

[pennsatuckey]

My sister was the world's laziest homeschooler, and her kids all entered high school with the barest of skills. The oldest three never really managed to make it up, and had to have adaptive classes, though they all did graduate high school. However, all of them could have done a lot more had they had the right skills - not just academic stuff, but how to study, how to manage their time, etc- taught to them properly from an early age. It really limited what they could do and they have all expressed frustration at their mother for being so half-assed.

The youngest, however, managed to beg her mother to let her go to school earlier than the others, and entered Grade 4 more or less illiterate. You know what helped her? Harry freakin' Potter. She became a total Potterhead and it really motivated her to learn to read as quickly as possible. She was caught up to her grade level in a year or so. Go figure.

YES.

I also highly recommend A Series of Unfortunate Events. I followed the series from the time I was 5 or 6 until I was about 9 and loved all 13 of the books.

It's good for kids who have a quirky sense of humor or might be interested in something a little darker than your average children's book. I remember learning vocabulary through the narrator's breaks in the fourth wall ('A word which here means...', accompanied by a funny and simple definition). The books are even more fun to revisit as an adult since you pick up on the weird cultural references throughout the series.

[klavierspieler]

For me it was the library, almighty Google, and getting into a secular, accredited college. My mom was a lot better than most about homeschooling, but she still couldn't keep up with us and by the time I was 12 she was handing us the teacher key and having us grade our own work, so I just quit. For things that interested me, I'd check out books at the library or (once I was an older teen and finally had mostly free range of the internet) fall down the internet rabbit hole. That served me well for things like lit and history (and what the fuck to do in most social situations after I exited the house), but not so well for things like science and math. I'm sure some people can teach those to themselves with no problem, but I am definitely not one of those people. ;) Those had to wait for college, where I started as low as I could and worked extra problems on my own and went and cried to the tutors and just generally struggled through as best as I could. The science wasn't as hard to catch up on as the math, but it was still easier with a teacher to walk me through it. I always, even in history classes (my best subject), felt like I had to do twice as much work as my classmates because we'd start on a subject I'd realize I had no grounding for and I'd be off doing research on my own to bring myself up to speed on top of keeping up with homework, but somehow I never had a professor guess that I was homeschooled. Although one of them did make a comment after I'd told him that that explained why I NEVER got any of the pop culture references he dropped in class. He'd thought he was just starting to get too old for his students to understand his references any more. :lol:

[Coco]

I'm totally confused.

I have a maths degree (over twenty years ago, mind) and I would have said that trigonometry is ABOUT sin/cos/tan - the ratios relating lengths and angles.

What precisely are you talking about?

i was wondering about that too! :D i love math, even though i'm just SOTDRT GED educated. It runs in the family so i can't claim any credit. My dad went to college on a computer science/mathematics major (in the '70's yay punch card programming horror stories lol) and my aunt got her masters in math. They used to sit around doing math problems out loud for fun at family reunions. /tangent hehe

Maybe Antimony meant this is part of the new common core methods? i have no clue. btw those memes about common core math on FB are just so awful. What's wrong with learning to do some of the steps mentally? :doh:

[realist51]

those memes about common core math on FB are just so awful. What's wrong with learning to do some of the steps mentally? :doh:

I'm always embarrassed for the posters when I see those complaints about common core. They usually give as an example of how unreasonable common core is something like being asked to add using a number line or showing basic understanding of base 10.