Abusive Potty Training!?

[Muriel]

French here: like Marianne said all children in France (unless they have a disability) are potty trained before starting "ecole maternelle" between age 2 and 3. I have never ever heard of a child not being able to attend the maternelle because he or she wasn't potty trained !

That's just cultural imo...

We do it very simply, it only takes some patience and a good washing machine, we stop putting diapers on the children and give him/her regular undies and make him/her sit on the potty many times during the day. There is no threat, violence or any kind of reward system... Most children get it quickly, for some it can take several months, it depends of the kid... If I take my kids example, my 2 oldest (girl and boy) were trained by 2, for my third (daughter) it was a bit longer she was trained by 30 months old.

It's not a big deal really...

[Marianne]

French here: like Marianne said all children in France (unless they have a disability) are potty trained before starting "ecole maternelle" between age 2 and 3. I have never ever heard of a child not being able to attend the maternelle because he or she wasn't potty trained !

That's just cultural imo...

We do it very simply, it only takes some patience and a good washing machine, we stop putting diapers on the children and give him/her regular undies and make him/her sit on the potty many times during the day. There is no threat, violence or any kind of reward system... Most children get it quickly, for some it can take several months, it depends of the kid... If I take my kids example, my 2 oldest (girl and boy) were trained by 2, for my third (daughter) it was a bit longer she was trained by 30 months old.

It's not a big deal really...

Ah ? I heard it every years, that's a kind of big deal here (big maternelle with lot of children). But cool if it's not like this everywhere !

Agree with the "it's not a big deal". We're always dealing with a little 4 years old who is not potty trained for the night and doesn't want to wear diapers. We just teach him of to change the sheets, and we're waiting. He doesn't like to speak about it, and "want to do it by himself", so just wait and see...

[Muriel]

Ah ? I heard it every years, that's a kind of big deal here (big maternelle with lot of children). But cool if it's not like this everywhere !

Agree with the "it's not a big deal". We're always dealing with a little 4 years old who is not potty trained for the night and doesn't want to wear diapers. We just teach him of to change the sheets, and we're waiting. He doesn't like to speak about it, and "want to do it by himself", so just wait and see...

I was not talking about night training, only day... I don't think it's possible to train a child not to wet his bed. My children stopped wetting their beds months after being potty trained during the day...

[Marianne]

I was not talking about night training, only day... I don't think it's possible to train a child not to wet his bed. My children stopped wetting their beds months after being potty trained during the day...

You will be surprised about what people think. People have told us to : make him see a psychologist, put the wet sheet at the window and speaking/laughing about it with the neighbors (We were "... WHAT ?" This is exactly the same method as in "L'enfant"of Jules Valles with the crazy and violent mother), giving him a gift when he doesn't wet his bed, or "psychoanalyze him".

Okay. We will just wait...

[Jilli]

I was potty trained when I was 3, which was really good seeing that I had a brain condition that made me gain skills later than anyone else.

Prior to that I was hit on multiple occasions by my daycare provider because during my naps I couldn't control my bowel, I think I was 2. I remember it still(that's the age I stopped seeing her, due to a money dispute with the parents.) Sorry if that's tmi, over 20 years later I'm clearly still not over it. :embarrassed:

[Mama Mia]

My oldest toilet trained herself at 18 months, but she had an iron bladder and was dry at night from about 12 months( maybe less). She was also cloth diapered, and just a very independent, do it herself type kid. Which I think is a huge part of it.

If you're not going to use some sort of system or concentrated effort I think you can still have a wide range of ages when a child will be ready.

You can get a combination of parent ( cloth diaper) physical (strong bladder) and personality ( very independent) traits that at one extreme lead to toilet training very young, or at the opposite end there are traits that lead to much later learning. For my youngest it was the opposite traits and she was 3 before she was out of diapers, but her traits were she had disposable diapers, had to pee frequently ( she had occasional night time accidents til 5 ish), and was a very spacey child - if she was playing she would completely forget to use the toilet.

I will say that the age it's expected to be out of diapers seems to change over time - and I assume by culture.

In the 80s /early 90s when my kids were young the " normal" average seemed to be 2 1/2 and if your child was still in diapers or pull ups full time after they were 3 people would think it was definitely time to push the issue. Now it seems to have moved up a year, with lots of 3s in diapers/pull-ups.

[Muriel]

You will be surprised about what people think. People have told us to : make him see a psychologist, put the wet sheet at the window and speaking/laughing about it with the neighbors (We were "... WHAT ?" This is exactly the same method as in "L'enfant"of Jules Valles with the crazy and violent mother), giving him a gift when he doesn't wet his bed, or "psychoanalyze him".

Okay. We will just wait...

Oh my god that's crazy ! A lot of children still wet their bed at 4 that's not unusual at all... Those people are mean :cry:

[Marianne]

Oh my god that's crazy ! A lot of children still wet their bed at 4 that's not unusual at all... Those people are mean :cry:

They think it's a battle of power... Whent it's not...

[EmmieJ]

I used cloth diapers and my oldest was almost 3. :lol: She just didn't get it. But when she did she was potty trained in less than 24 hours. I tried to not make it a huge struggle or a big deal. And one day it was like it all clicked and she knew what to do. She really wasn't ready before then.

This. So much this. The general consensus seems to be that boys usually take longer than girls to learn how to use the toilet. I think it has something to do with physical development, and that it may take longer for boys to develop the awareness and physical sensation that tells them "I need to go!" But every child is different and shaming them, punishing them, or otherwise making their life miserable because you (the parent) have decided it is time for them to be "trained," is bull shit.

I'm boiling mad this system was applied to a child with Down's Syndrome and wish that mother could have been turned in to CPS for her crappy parenting. Probably not severe enough for CPS, but that's downright cruel. What a fucking bitch!

I know some people are joking about being lazy parents because they waited until their child was ready for potty training, but I think that's the smart way to go. My son entered preschool just after he turned 3, still in diapers. Had introduced the concept of using the toilet two or three times once he turned two, but he wasn't interested. About a month after starting preschool, he told me he didn't want to wear diapers anymore. So we broke out the big boy underwear and he did great all day. That night I tried to get him to wear a pair of pull ups, but he didn't want to. So I let him go to bed wearing underwear and figured I might have an extra load of laundry. He stayed dry all night and never once wet the bed. Easiest "potty training" ever, and no shaming, no making my child feel like dirt, no being a fucking bitch to him. It was totally awesome.

But then again, some parents take joy in finding ways to make their kids miserable, which is why they would never even consider this particular method.

[EmmieJ]

I was more shocked that they apparently have 30 two year olds in a room with only 2 adults! :shock: I was a pre-school teacher, and rand a large family daycare home back in a previous life, and we had to have a much higher adult to child ratio. Don't recall what it was, but I know at my 2 year old grand baby's daycare it is 1 adult to every 4 toddlers. Even the 4 year olds had a lower ratio than 1 to 15.

That many babies ( cause 2 year olds really are still babies IMO) to one caregiver sounds like the children wouldn't get nearly enough attention.

I was surprised at that too. Even in our cash-strapped school district, kindergarten through 2nd grade were limited to 20 students class size. When my son was in preschool, I believe they limited the number of students per class to 12 (that's with one teacher and one assistant per classroom). I cannot imagine what it would be like to try to handle 30 two-year olds in one class?

[Marianne]

I was surprised at that too. Even in our cash-strapped school district, kindergarten through 2nd grade were limited to 20 students class size. When my son was in preschool, I believe they limited the number of students per class to 12 (that's with one teacher and one assistant per classroom). I cannot imagine what it would be like to try to handle 30 two-year olds in one class?

It's not everywhere like this, but our school district have class with a lot of kids. They handle very well ! they make 4 little groups. They are small groups. A group is active with the teacher, a group with the caregiver, another group with other caregiver, and the other group in autonomy. There are activities of 30 minutes. There is part of the day with the whole class. Part of the day is occupied by a nap. They have people outside the school for "sport" and music. They make a great job ! I've seen a lot of progress and joy in our children since they are in school, even in bad condition :D

[Muriel]

I was surprised at that too. Even in our cash-strapped school district, kindergarten through 2nd grade were limited to 20 students class size. When my son was in preschool, I believe they limited the number of students per class to 12 (that's with one teacher and one assistant per classroom). I cannot imagine what it would be like to try to handle 30 two-year olds in one class?

In a typical class of "petite section" (first year of preschool in France), the school year begin in early September and most of the pupil reach age 3 by the end of December, so less than a third of the children are not 3 yet in September. It's not uncommon in big schools to have up to 30 children in a classroom with a teacher and 2 helpers. In my children's school (little town and private school) it was more 22/24 children for one teacher + one helper. In France children go to school from 8:30 to 11:30 and from 1:30 pm to 4:30 pm but during the first year of preschool some children attend only in the morning.

[EmmieJ]

In a typical class of "petite section" (first year of preschool in France), the school year begin in early September and most of the pupil reach age 3 by the end of December, so less than a third of the children are not 3 yet in September. It's not uncommon in big schools to have up to 30 children in a classroom with a teacher and 2 helpers. In my children's school (little town and private school) it was more 22/24 children for one teacher + one helper. In France children go to school from 8:30 to 11:30 and from 1:30 pm to 4:30 pm but during the first year of preschool some children attend only in the morning.

Okay - what you describes sounds like my school district's kindergarten classes here. Maximum of 20 children, one teacher, and between 2 to 3 parent helpers. I can't remember what time class began, but probably around 8:15 or 8:30, and they got out around 1:00 p.m. (Our school's budgets have been cut every year for years, and there used to be funding for classroom aides. It's been perhaps close to 20 years since they cut that funding, which is why they ask parents if they can volunteer one day a week in the classroom instead.)

[polecat]

I used cloth diapers and my first daughter trained herself in one day at like 22 months (she wanted panties and we had a video called "it's potty time," the songs which still pop into my head to this day). My second did something similar right before she turned 2, but my third had no interest until she was over three. Every kid is different.

Our cloth diapers wicked. We used diapers with crushed panne, fleece or micro-suede against their skin. It kept them dry and comfy.

I wrote 5-7 in error. The ages for compulsory education in my state used to be 7-17, but that is no longer the case. This coming school year, it's 6 to 17 here. Sorry.

[dawbs]

If I drank tons of apple juice and Dr. Pepper I would struggle to sand still for an hour. This is just bad parenting.

I used cloth diapers and my oldest was almost 3. :lol: She just didn't get it. But when she did she was potty trained in less than 24 hours. I tried to not make it a huge struggle or a big deal. And one day it was like it all clicked and she knew what to do. She really wasn't ready before then.

I used cloth and the little one is almost 4 and no end is in sight.

*sigh*

We're currently doing pull ups and I'm hoping the peer pressure of starting a preschool next week helps. I've had a few nods that we're starting a new 'window of opportunity" because I missed the last one.

(she has a bladder of steel too. She can hold her pee for 10 hours without going...and then is in pain and unable to go and explodes. It's a very special challenge that we don't have an answer for yet. Working on it, we'll get there. eventually. Or I'll cave my head in beating it against a wall :angry-banghead: :lol: )

[Mama Mia]

It's not everywhere like this, but our school district have class with a lot of kids. They handle very well ! they make 4 little groups. They are small groups. A group is active with the teacher, a group with the caregiver, another group with other caregiver, and the other group in autonomy. There are activities of 30 minutes. There is part of the day with the whole class. Part of the day is occupied by a nap. They have people outside the school for "sport" and music. They make a great job ! I've seen a lot of progress and joy in our children since they are in school, even in bad condition :D

While that still seems like much too high a ratio, it is much better than what you said the first time. In the first post it sounded like you had 30 children who had just turned 2 , with only two adults. But it sounds like it is actually 3 adults and the children are closer to 3 years old. For children that age that is a huge difference! It also makes much more sense as far as being out of diapers.

[LittleOleMe]

I wrote 5-7 in error. The ages for compulsory education in my state used to be 7-17, but that is no longer the case. This coming school year, it's 6 to 17 here. Sorry.

Tangent time!

Just because the compulsory school age was 7, doesn't mean kiddos start kindergarten at 7. It just means they had to be registered by 7. My state's compulsory school age is 8. All it means is that by the time my kids hit that age (and they need to be 8 within two weeks of the school year starting, so if your child turns 8 fifteen days after school starts, you get to wait a whole extra year) they either need to be enrolled in a school (in whatever grade) or be registered as a homeschooler (again, in whatever grade). On a side note of this side note, I'm really surprised to see other states lowered their compulsory school age. We've been talking about it (apparently) but nothing has ever really become of it.

In any case, if a child isn't potty learned by age 5, there's a problem. Unless the child has some sort of handicap or medical problem, there is no reason for a 5 year old to still be in diapers.

[Marianne]

While that still seems like much too high a ratio, it is much better than what you said the first time. In the first post it sounded like you had 30 children who had just turned 2 , with only two adults. But it sounds like it is actually 3 adults and the children are closer to 3 years old. For children that age that is a huge difference! It also makes much more sense as far as being out of diapers.

Sorry, I don't explain it well :/

This is a class (Toute Petite Section) which is not available in all kindergartens (most start at 2 and a half years / 3 years with the Petite Section). It has a LOT of requests. Children whose both parents do not speak French and are not in a daycare have priority to help them to learn French (there is a lot of immigrants in this part of the city) . There is two class of 30 children, but more of 100 requets. So, to choose wich children will be accepted or not, the teacher ask the children to be out of diapers the day (it's okay for the nap). School begins at 8h30 and finish at 4h30, but the children can go from 7h00 to 6h30 (for the parents who works). School the afternoon is optionnal. The school also proposed a free meeting with a psychologist, a speech therapist, and a teacher specialist in disability. There's one social assistance who work full time in the school. The goal is to help children who would have been disadvantaged later in school by poverty, parental illiteracy, disability, etc. ...

[Coco]

I had one child that absolutely refused to fully potty train until they were four. I tried all the systems going and they weren't having any of it. I have a character on my hands :lol:

It wasn't the end of the world; I reckoned child wouldn't want to be still in nappies when they started school and guess what, they weren't.

mine too! :doh: oh well it cut down on times we had to go pee-pee while out. Public potties are so gross.

[polecat]

Tangent time!

Just because the compulsory school age was 7, doesn't mean kiddos start kindergarten at 7.

Ok.

I acknowledged my error. *shrug*

[Curious]

Our movie is Potty Power. Thank God it goes back to the library tomorrow. I may have to buy it though, because the small child loves it. Or I'll wait a few days and check it out again. I had "I'm proud to wear my underwear, as proud as proud can be! I march about and then I SHOUT I'm proud to wear my underwear" stuck in my head for days. It was all I could do to NOT randomly sing it out loud in public.

Get used to it. My youngest is going to be 21 this year and I still suddenly start singing Timmy the Tooth songs once in a while ;)

[Antimony]

Sorry, I don't explain it well :/

This is a class (Toute Petite Section) which is not available in all kindergartens (most start at 2 and a half years / 3 years with the Petite Section). It has a LOT of requests. Children whose both parents do not speak French and are not in a daycare have priority to help them to learn French (there is a lot of immigrants in this part of the city) . There is two class of 30 children, but more of 100 requets. So, to choose wich children will be accepted or not, the teacher ask the children to be out of diapers the day (it's okay for the nap). School begins at 8h30 and finish at 4h30, but the children can go from 7h00 to 6h30 (for the parents who works). School the afternoon is optionnal. The school also proposed a free meeting with a psychologist, a speech therapist, and a teacher specialist in disability. There's one social assistance who work full time in the school. The goal is to help children who would have been disadvantaged later in school by poverty, parental illiteracy, disability, etc. ...

That sounds a little bit like Head Start in the US. I don't really know all that much about it but it is income-based (parents must be below poverty level for children to qualify) and I think it has services from birth to age 5. It seems to be effective (but still a debate on whether or it is or not).

[itsnikki05]

What's wrong with letting them run around naked? I let my kid ruin around naked... if she peed or pooped in the floor, I made her help clean it, within a day she was in drawers because she couldn't stand being naked. I think the first sounds mean and the second one? Not too bad, but a little long?

[DGayle]

My thought on potty-training is there's no single method that will work for all kids. Look how many methods were used here! There are people who would call a lot of them abusive, but potty-training isn't nice, clean business. My worry is when someone is so sure a method will work that you can tell they're going to be so rigid that they'll be pissed if it doesn't work and blame the kid. Some kids just plain have no interest, but are capable of learning. If this is your kid, do you let them Homer Simpson it, or do you decide that, since you know Kid can do it, that you're going to do it? There is no way to know ahead of time. Potty training is so personal that you can have a couple dozen kids and none of then learned it through the same methods.

[DGayle]

That sounds a little bit like Head Start in the US. I don't really know all that much about it but it is income-based (parents must be below poverty level for children to qualify) and I think it has services from birth to age 5. It seems to be effective (but still a debate on whether or it is or not).

Since the point of Head Start is to have kids ready for kindergarten, there are also spots reserved for special needs kids, regardless of income, since those kids are also at risk of not being ready. So it's not all very poor kids. A lot of people don't know this program also helps developmentally delayed and disabled kids.