Abusive Potty Training!?

[FJismyheadship]

I don't know if this goes here or in Wide World.

einstein-syndrome.com/development/potty_training_description/

One of her daughters has Downs Syndrome and she used this with her. The goal is to have her child trained in a day, although it can take a few more.

First she starts with the potty doll. She shows the child how the doll goes potty. She made the doll have an accident, and then made her kid shame the doll.

A while later squirt some water on the doll’s pants. Have your child discover it. Go ballistic with your disapproval (directed of course at the wet doll). Have your child shout, “NO, No†and scold the doll. Wet pants! Yucky! Pee goes in the toilet, not in our pants!

Do wet pants checks on the doll. More details are below. Have your child touch the doll’s pants, declare that they are wet, and have your child shake her finger at the doll and scold, “no, no, no!†Do ten repetitions of this.

Then she starts talking about practice runs. She calls it behavior modification

This is the part the child will hate, yet it is the part where you will be giving the most input. It is behavior modification, pure and simple.

When your child has an accident on the floor, she must practice. She must practice what she should have done instead of peeing on the floor. You take her to the scene of the crime. You ask where she should go pee. You answer for her, “in the toilet†Make her say it. “In the toilet.†Then you go through this litany:

“When you have to go pee, you run to the toilet.â€

“Run to the toilet! Quickly! Run! Run!†(You use as much physical pressure as necessary to get her to start running.)

“Turn around.â€

“Pull your pants down.â€

(You help her get her thumbs in in-back to get it over her rump)

“Sit down†(for just a half-second)

“Stand upâ€

“Pull up your pants.†(This is the yucky part, because they are wet!)

Throughout this practice you guide her hands and body to obey you. You pull your hands back whenever she is doing it on her own. Pulling up and down wet pants is hard, and she will need more help with this, but you must get her hands doing it. No fair doing it for her. You didn’t pee on the floor, she did!

Do not let her stay on the toilet during the positive practice trials. Just get down and up quickly.

Peer pressure

Make a list of everybody in the world that the child cares about. Include family members, teachers, Bert and Ernie, everybody. You see, they all have dry pants. Use this to fill your lulls while you are waiting for her to have to pee. Keep up a banter about all her friends and their dry pants. “Daddy has dry pants. Mary, touch your pants. Dry! Good Girl. Just like daddy! Sister has dry pants. Mary, touch your pants. Dry! Just like sister! Sister will be so proud of you.â€

When she wets her pants, use the peer pressure again. “Does daddy have wet pants? No! Touch your pants. Wet! Your pants are wet. Does mommy have wet pants? Grandpa has dry pants! Your pants are wet. Teacher has dry pants. Touch your pants. Wet! No, NO! Keep your pants dryâ€

Potty training boys

I have trained four boys. None had Down syndrome. Two were under two years old. I trained two at the big toilet and they were the fastest of all my little trainees. With Charlie, after he had had two cups of liquid I stood him on a stool in front of the toilet and kept feeding him juicy grapes to get him to stay there. He stood there 45 minutes, peed, and understood.

Last week I trained Danny by standing him in front of the big toilet on a stool. He resisted an extremely full bladder for over an hour (16 ounces of juice plus 8 ounces of Dr. Pepper), but finally couldn’t resist any longer and peed into the toilet.

Maybe I'm making a big deal out of nothing, but I can't imagine shaming a child for having an accident or making them stand in front of a toilet for forty five minutes/an hour just to make them go pee.

Am I making too big a deal out of this? This isn't normal, right?

[Marianne]

Erika Schupe use the same book...

largefamiliesonpurpose.com/2012/06/potty-training-children-in-less-than.html

[Jesse911]

I think there's a whole lot of not normal in that but I dont see much wrong with standing the little boy infront of the toilet for an extended period of time since she said she was standing there giving him grapes to distract him and wasn't just making him stand and try for that long

[Curious]

Erika Schupe use the same book...

largefamiliesonpurpose.com/2012/06/potty-training-children-in-less-than.html

well that alone probably tells you it's not normal :shifty-kitty:

[Koala]

I think it's fucking ridiculous and the shaming is emotionally abusive. Wait till your kids are ready. Even if they're not ready until 3. Even if it's inconvenient. Even if you're a fucking lazy human being.

[Marianne]

Our neighbor told us to start potty training when the child can walk (18 months) and have lots of patience. Do not wait too long because it takes time and that children must be train to go to maternelle (first school where you go at 2 years/24 months but if the child is not potty trained, parents must wait his 3 years), to be positive, smile a lot, and love clean ...

Plus, modesty is very important for Erika, but posting picture of your naked children on the toilet on the internet, is very modest, it seems...

[feministxtian]

Good grief. I potty trained my kids the easy (read: Lazy) way. I waited until they really showed they were ready. One child, 2 and a half. Her brothers, over 3. The first child took off her diaper and went in the toilet. Then there was the HUGE fight to get SOMETHING on her naked bottom long enough to go to the store to get her big girl panties. The boys...they knew what they were doing yet refused to stop playing long enough to go to the bathroom. So...one fine day, I left their diaper on. One day of a soggy, nasty diaper and they were ready to go potty.

This crap is ridiculous. But, we know fundies are ridiculous and know nothing about kids...

[polecat]

I have three boys, and they didn't potty train until three. Right on the dot of three for the two oldest. The youngest had bladder control at three, but he took a bit longer for bowel control. No biggie, to me. I waited until I was pretty sure they were ready, had a conversation about what was going to go down, had a party complete with undie cake and brand new undies and explained how we didn't want to mess up the undies. Put them in undies -- voila. Potty trained. Lots of praise and encouragement. I don't even remember more than a handful of accidents (all three combined) in those first few days. Could be because we waited so long that they were really, really ready. I just didn't see the point of beating my head against a wall to potty train early just so that I could say my kid was pt'd by two (and half the kids I knew who were "pt'd" by two were still having frequent and regular accidents, and I just don't get how that's "pt'd.") I definitely don't see the point in shaming a kid for an accident.

[FJismyheadship]

I think there's a whole lot of not normal in that but I dont see much wrong with standing the little boy infront of the toilet for an extended period of time since she said she was standing there giving him grapes to distract him and wasn't just making him stand and try for that long

I feel like 45 minutes is more than extended. If he didn't pee, then he didn't need to go. Secondly, if I gave my daughter 16 ounces of juice and then 8 ounces of dr. pepper, theres no way she would stand still, even if I was feeding her. AND she would be crying, and cranky from the sugar crash (which I imagine would happen before an hour was up) The woman stated these two kids were under two. My daughter will sit on the potty for an extended period of time (15-20 minutes), but I'm not forcing her to stay there. She is reading a book or something. With her, she just goes and sits on her potty chair with a book... and I didn't need to shame her, or make her obey me. She just got used to reading on the potty. So now, the potty chair is a potty and a place to sit and read. I let her run around naked, and she goes to sit on the potty. Again, I don't force her. She started showing signs of readiness and so we started putting her on the potty. I don't make a big deal out of it, we go once an hour, and I expect accidents.

I have seen other methods that are supposed to work in three days or a week, but they don't even involve this amount of effort, shaming, or training. They just set a timer and then take the child to the potty! Thats the method I'm using, but I almost don't need a timer because the child loves books and will just go grab a book and sit on the potty. And with the exception of this one, every other potty training method I have ever seen says do not shame your child for accidents, they will happen. Ignore them, tell the child "Next time, try to get to the potty on time", but don't shame the child.

And forcing the child to clean up their own accident seems sad too... you've shamed them, you've made them run to the potty and obey you ten times in a row, you've forced them to pull their pants up and down ten times, and now they have to clean the mess up themselves and put on their own clean clothes. I wonder if she makes them change their sheets too if they soil them?

She mentions at the end that all of her kids have accidents when they have colds. Does she shame them then as well?

[Jesse911]

I feel like 45 minutes is more than extended. If he didn't pee, then he didn't need to go. Secondly, if I gave my daughter 16 ounces of juice and then 8 ounces of dr. pepper, theres no way she would stand still, even if I was feeding her. AND she would be crying, and cranky from the sugar crash (which I imagine would happen before an hour was up) The woman stated these two kids were under two. My daughter will sit on the potty for an extended period of time (15-20 minutes), but I'm not forcing her to stay there. She is reading a book or something. With her, she just goes and sits on her potty chair with a book... and I didn't need to shame her, or make her obey me. She just got used to reading on the potty. So now, the potty chair is a potty and a place to sit and read. I let her run around naked, and she goes to sit on the potty. Again, I don't force her. She started showing signs of readiness and so we started putting her on the potty. I don't make a big deal out of it, we go once an hour, and I expect accidents.

I have seen other methods that are supposed to work in three days or a week, but they don't even involve this amount of effort, shaming, or training. They just set a timer and then take the child to the potty! Thats the method I'm using, but I almost don't need a timer because the child loves books and will just go grab a book and sit on the potty. And with the exception of this one, every other potty training method I have ever seen says do not shame your child for accidents, they will happen. Ignore them, tell the child "Next time, try to get to the potty on time", but don't shame the child.

And forcing the child to clean up their own accident seems sad too... you've shamed them, you've made them run to the potty and obey you ten times in a row, you've forced them to pull their pants up and down ten times, and now they have to clean the mess up themselves and put on their own clean clothes. I wonder if she makes them change their sheets too if they soil them?

She mentions at the end that all of her kids have accidents when they have colds. Does she shame them then as well?

Well I pointed out at the start that the majority of that wasn't normal and I am totally against pretty much everything else in this. But I can't disagree with spending an extended time so long as your not forcing the child to strain and try the whole time and are being a decent parent and distracting your child and making a game of it. There's a right way and a wrong way to do anything an I can't say it's wrong so long as your not making a fight of it and are keeping the child happy while your trying to accomplish a bigger goal.

[ILoveJellybeans]

You aren't supposed to shame a kid for accidents. Its going to make them too afraid to mess up. And I think 45 minutes is too long to make a kid sit on the toilet/stand next to it, they obviously don't need to go yet.

Its better than the Pearl method though, which I thought this would be about, which involves taking the child outside and using a hose to clean them when they pee or poop in their diaper/pants instead of using wipes, but its not a good idea.

I don't know how to potty train a kid (and I now have a two and a half year old who doesn't seem to be ready), but at least I know what not to do and that's a start.

[FJismyheadship]

]You aren't supposed to shame a kid for accidents. Its going to make them too afraid to mess up. And I think 45 minutes is too long to make a kid sit on the toilet/stand next to it, they obviously don't need to go yet.

Its better than the Pearl method though, which I thought this would be about, which involves taking the child outside and using a hose to clean them when they pee or poop in their diaper/pants instead of using wipes, but its not a good idea.

I don't know how to potty train a kid (and I now have a two and a half year old who doesn't seem to be ready), but at least I know what not to do and that's a start.

Bolded: Especially a child under the age of 2, which is what she said about the two boys that stood at the potty for almost an hour.

I thought this would be a Pearl method... I guess they just have to be the worst and nastiest at everything.

[cindyluvs24]

I was told to wait until kiddo could wake up dry after a nap, (that showed he had enuf bladder control) then get him onto the pot asap because he'll be ready to go. My son was 3, but he has Asperger's. He loved to watch the water swirl down the bowl so i took the cover off the tank and let him watch the float and the flapper - but it would only "work" if there was something to flush. He got the hang of it. I am more than a little concerned that the child in the post has Down's and may not pick up on the training as quickly. Couple that with parents who are into biblical training or have a a large brood and not a lot of patience.......

[HoneyBunny]

I hate that potty training has to include shame or force. Many kids (especially boys) aren't ready until they are nearly four years old, and no amount of shame will change that (but it will leave emotional scars). My favorite trick was to sing Happy Birthday together. Took their minds off trying to get that muscle to release on command, and, voila, it would release and they could go. And it was fun, too!

[polecat]

And forcing the child to clean up their own accident seems sad too... you've shamed them, you've made them run to the potty and obey you ten times in a row, you've forced them to pull their pants up and down ten times, and now they have to clean the mess up themselves and put on their own clean clothes. I wonder if she makes them change their sheets too if they soil them?

She mentions at the end that all of her kids have accidents when they have colds. Does she shame them then as well?

I actually don't think the helping clean up thing is a big deal -- if done properly (and def. not with poop, which is germy and messier). If the kid pees on the floor, "Hey, kiddo, go grab a towel and a disinfectant wipe, and let's get this cleaned up!" It doesn't have to be a punishment. Just something that needs to get done, kwim? Heck, my youngest kid wet the bed maybe once a month -- he's a deep sleeper -- until he was 6 or so, and I'd have him get the blankets pulled off while I got the sheets. It wasn't a big deal to him or me, just something that needed to be done. It's when things get punitive that I start having issues with it. If you're making your kid yank wet clothes on and off and yelling at them about how gross they are for wet pants, THAT is not ok.

[louisa05]

I hate that potty training has to include shame or force. Many kids (especially boys) aren't ready until they are nearly four years old, and no amount of shame will change that (but it will leave emotional scars). My favorite trick was to sing Happy Birthday together. Took their minds off trying to get that muscle to release on command, and, voila, it would release and they could go. And it was fun, too!

Nephew was nearly four. His mom was panicking, but I was not. When he was ready, it was a breeze. Forcing the issue earlier was just miserable for everyone and his mom finally realized that, too.

(I had him for 6-8 wks every summer and many weekends and holidays while he visited single dad who works for the rail road and is gone 2-3 days at a time and sometimes more).

[Marianne]

Nephew was nearly four. His mom was panicking, but I was not. When he was ready, it was a breeze. Forcing the issue earlier was just miserable for everyone and his mom finally realized that, too.

(I had him for 6-8 wks every summer and many weekends and holidays while he visited single dad who works for the rail road and is gone 2-3 days at a time and sometimes more).

How does they do for school ? They accept children who are not potty trained ?

[polecat]

How does they do for school ? They accept children who are not potty trained ?

Younger kids are in daycare or preschool, and as far as I know, both accept kids who are not yet potty trained. Once they go to kindergarten, which is between 5 and 7, I believe that they DO need to be potty trained.

[Marianne]

Younger kids are in daycare or preschool, and as far as I know, both accept kids who are not yet potty trained. Once they go to kindergarten, which is between 5 and 7, I believe that they DO need to be potty trained.

ah, okay, it's because school began when the children are older (here, preschool began at 2 and being potty trained is obligatory because with 30 children by class, the two teacher have not the time to be with the 30 not potty trained :lol: ) Thanks !

[Aggie2145]

I think there's a whole lot of not normal in that but I dont see much wrong with standing the little boy infront of the toilet for an extended period of time since she said she was standing there giving him grapes to distract him and wasn't just making him stand and try for that long

I have seen variations of this in parenting books and it can work, especially if you make a game of it. Perhaps what is more realistic is every other hour you sit them on the toilet for 15 minutes. Then you reward them whether they go or not - rewarding the habit, not punishing noncompliance.

I have also read literature that suggests you ask the child to help clean up the pee mess. Not as a punishment, but just like you would ask them to help clean up their toys...especially if you wait until they are 3 or 4.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

ah, okay, it's because school began when the children are older (here, preschool began at 2 and being potty trained is obligatory because with 30 children by class, the two teacher have not the time to be with the 30 not potty trained :lol: ) Thanks !

So, would you say it's common for kids in France to be potty trained by two and I'm curious as to the method commonly used?

[HoneyBunny]

I teach in an early learning center (aka preschool). We have no rules regarding potty training (and have children from ages 1 to 5); it's simply accepted that kids are where they are in terms of training. Most 2 year olds are in diapers; a few might be in Pull Ups. Many 3 year olds are in Pull Ups, especially early in the year; some might even be in diapers. I don't recall any 4 year olds in diapers (though many, especially boys, are in Pull Ups early in the year) unless there was an underlying issue.

We change the necessary diapers, and Pull Ups when required, encourage parents to have a change of clothes (and shoes) in the kids' backpacks, and even have a supply at the school office when required. No force, no shaming, but the singing thing works like a charm. What's funny is weeks and months later, when the kids sing (by themselves) when using the toilet room in each classroom. With all hard surfaces, it echoes (loudly). I sub, so I move around a lot between classrooms, and the other teacher in the room (there are always two of us with 14-18 kids) will hear that singing and look at me, asking jokingly "One of yours?". Oh yeah...that's MY legacy. :lol:

[Kitty Luna]

Last week I trained Danny by standing him in front of the big toilet on a stool. He resisted an extremely full bladder for over an hour (16 ounces of juice plus 8 ounces of Dr. Pepper), but finally couldn’t resist any longer and peed into the toilet.

I am not a parent, so I am not up to date on proper child care and nutrition, but who the fuck gives a toddler/pre-schooler 8 ounces of Dr. Pepper?

[polecat]

I am not a parent, so I am not up to date on proper child care and nutrition, but who the fuck gives a toddler/pre-schooler 8 ounces of Dr. Pepper?

My 11 yo doesn't get eight oz. of Dr. Pepper, lol.

[Rebelwife]

My mother potty trained my nephew in 2 days last month just by taking his diaper off and rewarding him with an M&M every time he peed in the potty. It was actually pretty funny because he really wanted the M&Ms so he was trying to pee every 10 minutes and demanded his reward even if he just managed to produce a couple of drops. :lol:

One of mine was almost 3, we just took off the diapers and let her run around naked and stuck close to home for a few days. It didn't take very long. Our biggest issue was that soon after she learned she was majorly traumatized by an automatic flush toilet at the mall that flushed loudly while she was sitting on it. :doh: For about 2 months I had to carry a little portable potty in the car if we went anywhere because she refused to go near a public toilet.

My other was only 18 months, but that was because she found some old "Bear in the Big Blue House" underwear of her sister's and wanted to wear it desperately. She has a very strong sense of how things are supposed to be, so she wasn't buying my suggestion of putting it on over her diaper. :naughty: I told her if she wanted to wear them without a diaper she had to use the potty and we never looked back. It did help she was in cloth diapers, though. (Of course, this was also the kid that wasn't dry at night until she was almost 7. What I saved in using cloth diapers I more than spent in pull ups for night time over the years.)