Fundie law school denied accreditation for being anti-gay

[2xx1xy1JD]

Trinity Western University's proposed new law school was denied accreditation in Ontario by the Law Society of Upper Canada, because the school requires students to sign a "covenant" that they will not have sex outside of a traditional marriage between a man and woman.

Law Society's official statement: http://lsuc.on.ca/newsarchives.aspx?id= ... 2147498273

Newspaper article on the issue:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... e18185317/

[Mela99]

Interesting. I'm sure that's not the only reason though.

[uber frau]

Weren't they taken to court about their no premarital policy about 15 yes ago?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Interesting. I'm sure that's not the only reason though.

I wondered about this, but I got an email from the Law Society yesterday about it and took a look at the submissions that were made. There wasn't any discussion about academic quality at all - it was ALL focused on the school policy banning sex outside of heterosexual marriage, and the question of how to balance religious freedom against non-discrimination. [Discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is illegal in Ontario.]

Trinity Western's policy got less attention before this, because most students wouldn't choose a Christian university if they didn't agree with the policies. Law school spots, though, are more competitive, and any accredited law school in Canada will get applicants who simply want a law degree and don't care about the philosophy of the university

[Lawsome]

I wondered about this, but I got an email from the Law Society yesterday about it and took a look at the submissions that were made. There wasn't any discussion about academic quality at all - it was ALL focused on the school policy banning sex outside of heterosexual marriage, and the question of how to balance religious freedom against non-discrimination. [Discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is illegal in Ontario.]

Trinity Western's policy got less attention before this, because most students wouldn't choose a Christian university if they didn't agree with the policies. Law school spots, though, are more competitive, and any accredited law school in Canada will get applicants who simply want a law degree and don't care about the philosophy of the university

An interesting comment was made in the Globe and Mail (I think) yesterday about how if Trinity Western is going to have a faculty of law, they might have the policy ripped to shreds by their own students. I can see that happening. As a current law student there's always someone going after the University's policy and in many cases, winning.

The TWUs policy was challenged a few years ago when the BC College of Teachers denied it accreditation, however the Supreme Court determined that accreditation had to be granted. However, given how society has changed in the past 10 years or so, I wonder if the same decision would be reached today. One of the major points I remember the court coming up with, it that just because teachers were taught anti-gay values, did not mean they would treat gay students unequally once teaching. I would suggest this is solid bullshit.

On another note, the BC Bar is re-evaluating its decision to grant accreditation (it seems that most Provincial Bar Associations are going to give it the go ahead, but LSUC is the biggest), and a gay future law student has already launched a legal challenge against the school. This could get even more interesting in the near future. :popcorn2:

It's actually kind of funny, I was talking to my colleague at law school recently who did her undergrad at TWU. Her response was that no one actually follows the schools convenient and it's not really enforced either. Despite being quite religious, her solution would be to just trash the thing and the whole problem goes away. It would be interesting to see what the student body as a whole would have to say about it. If the student body itself does not subscribe to the values, the school is doing nothing but putting on a show for a small minority of very conservative individuals. Seems like a waste of a legal battle to me.

[Lawsome]

Weren't they taken to court about their no premarital policy about 15 yes ago?

Yep, that had to do with the BC College of Teachers denying accreditation for their Teaching College in 2001. The decision is here: http://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-cs ... 7/index.do . Long story short: they won, though I (and many professors and students I attend law school with) think the decision was wrong and reasoning was faulty.

[acheronbeach]

I got the LSUC email yesterday as well. I'm very happy with it.

Our province's lawyers are expected to uphold the Charter in its entirety. TWU's position is that its religious rights trump equality rights, end of story. That not how our Charter is interpreted, and as such, I don't think the LSUC should be recognizing graduates from a school that openly takes a position that is contrary to constitutional rights jurisprudence in Canada.

(but that's just IMHO)

[Palimpsest]

My knee-jerk reaction to this thread is:

If Trinity Western is applying for accreditation then it is not Fundie. It is merely Fundie-Lite. For real Fundies accreditation is EBIL and OB the DEBIL!

However, this is Canada not the USA, so I will be following the story with interest.

[acheronbeach]

My knee-jerk reaction to this thread is:

If Trinity Western is applying for accreditation then it is not Fundie. It is merely Fundie-Lite. For real Fundies accreditation is EBIL and OB the DEBIL!

However, this is Canada not the USA, so I will be following the story with interest.

LOL. One of the highest-up bureaucrats in the Ministry of the Attorney General in Ontario is a fundie who until recently chaired a "non-accredited" Bible school. Now he just goes around giving sermons about Creationism, anti-Catholic views, and how great chick-fil-a (sp?) is.

I'm very glad that LSUC is completely separate from government.

[tropaka]

LOL. One of the highest-up bureaucrats in the Ministry of the Attorney General in Ontario is a fundie who until recently chaired a "non-accredited" Bible school. Now he just goes around giving sermons about Creationism, anti-Catholic views, and how great chick-fil-a (sp?) is.

I'm very glad that LSUC is completely separate from government.[/quote

can I ask who's at the Attorney General's office who's fundie and why they would mention Chick-fil-a (we don't have them here)?

The law society in NS is considering accreditation as well. If it is approved by some provinces but not others (and Ontario was pretty close) it will screw up mobility agreements (i.e. lawyers being able to move from province to province w/out having reapply for licenses.

[acheronbeach]

I'll send you a PM. I have reasons to avoid posting his name on here publicly.

[acheronbeach]

The law society in NS is considering accreditation as well. If it is approved by some provinces but not others (and Ontario was pretty close) it will screw up mobility agreements (i.e. lawyers being able to move from province to province w/out having reapply for licenses.

Sorry to double-post, but I also wonder how this will work, considering the SCC's interpretation of mobility rights in Black.

[CrazyCatLady]

An interesting comment was made in the Globe and Mail (I think) yesterday about how if Trinity Western is going to have a faculty of law, they might have the policy ripped to shreds by their own students. I can see that happening. As a current law student there's always someone going after the University's policy and in many cases, winning.

The TWUs policy was challenged a few years ago when the BC College of Teachers denied it accreditation, however the Supreme Court determined that accreditation had to be granted. However, given how society has changed in the past 10 years or so, I wonder if the same decision would be reached today. One of the major points I remember the court coming up with, it that just because teachers were taught anti-gay values, did not mean they would treat gay students unequally once teaching. I would suggest this is solid bullshit.

On another note, the BC Bar is re-evaluating its decision to grant accreditation (it seems that most Provincial Bar Associations are going to give it the go ahead, but LSUC is the biggest), and a gay future law student has already launched a legal challenge against the school. This could get even more interesting in the near future. :popcorn2:

It's actually kind of funny, I was talking to my colleague at law school recently who did her undergrad at TWU. Her response was that no one actually follows the schools convenient and it's not really enforced either. Despite being quite religious, her solution would be to just trash the thing and the whole problem goes away. It would be interesting to see what the student body as a whole would have to say about it. If the student body itself does not subscribe to the values, the school is doing nothing but putting on a show for a small minority of very conservative individuals. Seems like a waste of a legal battle to me.

I've known many people who got their undergrad degrees at TWU and I never considered the school Fundy. Most Christian colleges and universities have the no drugs, sex, and gayness code. My thought is if you don't like the rules go to a different school. Public ones are cheaper anyway!

[bionicmlle]

Just trying to absorb all of this - very interesting. Why was the Seventh-day Adventist Church named in the suit?

[uber frau]

I've known many people who got their undergrad degrees at TWU and I never considered the school Fundy. Most Christian colleges and universities have the no drugs, sex, and gayness code. My thought is if you don't like the rules go to a different school. Public ones are cheaper anyway!

There's a difference between having a honour code that is additional to federal/provincial law and one contravenes federal or provincial law.

I'm not sure if barring graduates from becoming registered is the way to go enforcing it, but what's the point of an anti discrimination law if organisations like this can flout it?

[CrazyCatLady]

There's a difference between having a honour code that is additional to federal/provincial law and one contravenes federal or provincial law.

I'm not sure if barring graduates from becoming registered is the way to go enforcing it, but what's the point of an anti discrimination law if organisations like this can flout it?

My understanding is that religious organizations that do not receive government funding have more wiggle room when it comes to codes of conduct. An example would be a church barring it's pastor from sex outside of marriage. While this act would not violate the law, he could still be fired for breaking the code if conduct.

[uber frau]

I know. I just wonder about whether they _should_. The school isn't a church, it's a separate entity whose task is to educate, not to provide spiritual guidance. I wonder if it would be okay if a neo-nazi crowd decided to set up a school and ban non white ppl, or ppl who had disabled children.

[Trynn]

Just trying to absorb all of this - very interesting. Why was the Seventh-day Adventist Church named in the suit?

Wait, they were? Really?

I meant to quote your post not thank it, but I'm on my phone and can't undo it.

[acheronbeach]

Lawyers are not like any other graduates. They are, by their very nature, expected to uphold and conform to the Charter in all aspects of their professional life. The Charter is the foundation of Canada's laws.

So how can you avoid the logical contradiction of a law school with a lifestyle policy that discriminates, a school that openly says that they will be conveying these discriminatory values to its students, but at the same time is trying to produce lawyers? What is the point of a law degree where, at the end of it, the students will have to blot out the lessons they learned at TWU?

TWU can graduate engineers, dentists, whatever. But logically, I cannot see how you can approve lawyers whose training is from those who do not conform to the Charter. I can't see why we as Ontario lawyers would want to.

[tralala]

You know the society is old when it goes by the name "Upper Canada". I'm forever thankful to live in a country that doesn't mess around with it's marriage equality laws. It's nice when things can be done on a federal level in that instance.

[bionicmlle]

Wait, they were? Really?

I meant to quote your post not thank it, but I'm on my phone and can't undo it.

Yes - it is listed on the top of the decision. I did not read through the whole thing, because I have no attention span so I was hoping for a Cliffs' Notes version which included this detail. :)

[VeronicaMars144]

I went to TWU for my first year in 2009. It's not really fundie. Yeah we had to sign that covenant but I don't think many of us thought much of it. I'm totally for equality for all. I mean it's Canada. Gay marriage is legal here. I think having that rule in their covenant was lame. Of course this whole law thing was brought out after I left. And I wasn't too involved in the school politics, or whatever you want to call it, in the first place, so I really had no idea.

I had/have friends there that we're/are quite liberal, and some who were/are more conservative.

But thinking back, the year I came was the year they abolished a rule that we we're not supposed to drink as a student/staff of TWU. We were now allowed to drink, just not on campus. But no one followed that former rule, at all. I had friends that had been there for a couple years and had alcohol in their rooms and they went out for drinks etc., when the rule was still in place. I remember one of my first classes, my prof was introducing herself and showed us a pic of her and her husband sitting in a nice restaurant drinking wine. She joked that "Now she could show this pic because it wasn't against the RULES."

TWU isn't really that fundie, but it could be considered fundie-lite I guess. It's more of the administration, their rules and a couple of rather conservative students that make it fundie.

I'd say the majority of the students we're pretty chill, while I was there. And most of my friends who go there at the moment, think TWU should be accepting of everyone.

Just my thoughts, hope I helped a little. I don't comment much, but I read here often enough. So when I saw this post, I thought since I went there I should probably comment. Sorry if it's super long, or if my grammar sucks :)

[obiterdicta]

I thought I would share the latest on the TWU Law School front.

BC lawyers voted (twice) and by a substantial majority said that TWU Law graduates should not be admitted to the BC Bar. A day after the binding vote, BC lawyers' governing body, the Benchers, implemented that decision.

Meanwhile, there is a lawsuit against the BC government's decision to accredit the school and everyone's waiting for a lawsuit to be filed by a prospective TWU Law student against the Benchers' decision.

Likely this will get litigated in one province or another all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/bri ... e21435054/