When daughters are resistant to homemaking skills

[Tdoc72]

I have a co-worker that is having similar problems w/her daughter. They are not fundie, but both her and her husband were born in India (not sure what religion.) They have been in America for awhile and I'd say they have assimilated nicely. My co-worker's MIL lives w/them and speaks no English. My co-worker and her husband speak English, though accented, & she is easy to understand. The kids (The girls are 20 & 15 and are taught their domestic duties, while their son is 6 and treated like a God) speak both, but mostly English w/barely an accent & my friend tells them no English at home (apparently this is a minor recurring problem). At home, it is pretty traditional gender roles but she works full-time, wears jeans and t-shirts at work & the kids go to public school. I know from photos she wears traditional Indian dresses for special occasions and I'm not sure what she wears at home.

Lately the 15 yr old has begun saying she doesn't want to get married (when she's older...not right now). My co-worker and her husband are very upset and keep telling her that she must get married. MUST. There is no other option. Since she's a co-worker and not a close friend (and I knew she wouldn't take my advice anyway), I just told her that kids say things and maybe she would change her mind. But I wish I could tell the daughter to sit tight for a couple of years, go off to college (they allow this), become self-supporting then live her own life. I'm glad that at least she had the freedom to say that to her parents. I was afraid to ask my co-worker if it would have to be an arranged marriage or not. Hers was but she never talks much about her husband. I know it's cultural but it still weirds me out.

[lawlifelgbt]

@Tdoc:

I know it's not the way we do things, but arranged marriages aren't necessarily all oppressive and bad. My best friend since I was 14 told me in high school, that if she ever was going to get an arranged marriage, that I should shoot her the night before the wedding (she's from Pakistan, moved when she was 4, parents adapted, no one veils, mom is a really successful doctor).

But then, about a year ago, she met this guy through her family, and they really like each other. Her parents wanted her to marry, but she could turn down a guy if he seemed "wrong" for her. She dated in college, but no luck. Her parents would basically set her up with friends' sons with the intent of finding a husband; she did, and they're really in love. Her fiancee is liberal w/r/t her working, and they both sent my wife and I a card and present after we got (same-sex) married.

Her parents also had an arranged marriage, but (I spent a TON of time at my friend's place as a teen, because my mom was both a tyrant and gone frequently, and my friend's house had air-conditioning and kept the heat above 55 in the winter while my family's old house didn't), they seemed to get along. Her mother was definitely not the "submit" type, nor oppressed. She made as much as her husband, and ran the house as a single parent when he would be away for weeks on business.

I just wanted to point out that, provided the prospective couple get along, there's actually an argument for having one's family involved in one's marriage choice; the people they might have you look at come from similar backgrounds, views, education levels, etc.

[Trynn]

I had a sabbath school teacher who was not too happy wih her daughters fiancé. She said one sabbath during class that she wished that all our parents would arrange our marriages for us.

My cousin just came back with, "great, I'll have mom swing by the bar this evening and pick me up a cute one!"

My cousin's mother is widely known for being a rebel, at least as far as Adventism goes, so cousin was only halfway joking.

The sabbath school teacher just looked at her in horror. It was great.

[julie paradox]

FYI. There is a good and funny book on antiquated and not recently tested laws. I read it a while ago and remember that in the UK you can still legally be hung, drawn and quartered for taking a piss off Chelsea bridge. Not that such an offense would necessarily be prosecuted today or punished that way, but it is still on the books! I wish I could remember the name of the book...

May have been true at the time, but in 1998 we abolished the death penalty completely, including for high treason; and according to Wikipedia "In 2004 the 13th Protocol to the European Convention on Human Rights became binding on the United Kingdom, prohibiting the restoration of the death penalty for as long as the UK is a party to the Convention."

[julie paradox]

Oh, and reason number 6,234 to avoid moving to the US: wow, they add your incomes together? That's weird.

(reason 6,233 is the apparent total absence of the PAYE system)

[salex]

Oh, and reason number 6,234 to avoid moving to the US: wow, they add your incomes together? That's weird.

(reason 6,233 is the apparent total absence of the PAYE system)

No, you can choose to file married filing jointly or married filing separately. Generally, for my husband and me, it is cheaper to pay jointly, even when there are vast differences in our salaries.

And if I understand PAYE, we do have more or less mandatory paycheck withholding for income tax, with estimated taxes withheld from each paycheck, along with our SSI and Medicare withholding, among other things. My check comes to me with state and federal tax withheld (and in places where there is city income tax, they do that too) my Pretax FSA (medical spending account) my Medicare and social security withholding, my health and dental insurance (employee share) my 401K investment and I think I have a bit of optional (my choice) life insurance coverage on top of what my company provides.

[nausicaa]

Anyone remember the story of Matthew and Crystal Koso? Matthew was 22 when he impregated Crystal, who was 13 at the time. With her mother's permission she was able to marry Matthew in Kansas where it was legal for a girl as young as 12 to be married (at that time...this case and the international coverage prompted a change in that law to 15).

This young woman ended up having 4 kids before the age of 20!

http://journalstar.com/news/local/epilogue-koso-couple-still-in-love/article_9d7bfa6a-14c8-11df-981e-001cc4c002e0.html

Wow, she had one child at age fourteen, another around fifteen with a different father, and now neither she nor her husband have a job and have four children total, one of whom has cystic fibrosis. The father of the second oldest child is now in prison on child sexual abuse and child pornography charges. As of 2012 all of the children had been removed from the Kosos care after the parents were deemed unfit parents by the state.

[flojo]

Watching someone else be pregnant and happy about it isn't the same as having personal experience to know some of the things that could make someone scared. How many times do you think she's watched someone go through an unplanned pregnancy? Before I ever got pregnant, I thought I had a good idea about everything because I'd watched others go through it. When I got pregnant, I learned I didn't know half the shit I thought I did because there are some things you can't learn by just watching someone a few hours during the day.

This. My mother is a midwife and back in the day I completed the first year of my midwifery degree, and I have watched a tonne of friends go through pregnancy and come out the other end.

I'm currently pregnant, with my first. We are married and he has a full time job, but this is unplanned, and I never dreamed of the emotional impact it would have. We have no money and things are really, really tough.

No way I want some naive fundie girl counselling em through it (OTOH in a moment of weakness I was tempted to go to a "crisis pregnancy centre" because I hear they give out free stuff....)

[salex]

Wow, she had one child at age fourteen, another around fifteen with a different father, and now neither she nor her husband have a job and have four children total, one of whom has cystic fibrosis. The father of the second oldest child is now in prison on child sexual abuse and child pornography charges. As of 2012 all of the children had been removed from the Kosos care after the parents were deemed unfit parents by the state.

I know that the fact this was done did cause Kansas to update their laws.

A college friend of mine worked in a public school in OK in the 80s. One of her middle school or freshmen (is that 14-15ish? Very young) students was a cute, perky little cheerleader then, over the summer, her mother's boyfriend molested her and she got pregnant. Her mother insisted she marry him--because that would keep him from being charged with statutory rape? (Is that even possible?) That was at least my second hand version of the story, and it was done quietly and didn't make the news. Toss in all the church weddings with no state license and who knows how often very young girls are married off by their parents.

creeps me out. My parents thought 20 was way too young for me....

[smittykins]

I remember reading of a 13-year-old boy who got his 14-year old girlfriend pregnant(it was in the National Enquirer, but also in "reputable" media). They got married--the NE called him "America's youngest married father"--she had a baby girl, and some time later, his in-laws kicked him out. After the divorce, when I think he was 15, he got his current 14-year-old girlfriend pregnant, they married, had another daughter, and that marriage ended soon after. So by the time he was 16 or 17, he'd been married and divorced twice, and had two kids. :pink-shock:

[MamaJunebug]

Back to where one FJian's dad said, "There is WORK, not men's work and women's work."

I love it.

I see where Stacy McDonald is over the moon at the loverly irony of her husband bringing her a cup of coffee while she reads an article he's written about patriarchy (he's for it).

One of her friends kvells further about how beautimous it is that Stacy appreciates the gesture and that she thanks her husband for it and that she brags about him/it.

Good night of living. When did treating the love of your life to a hot beverage become the neatest, most out-of-the-box wonderful thing to do -- just because you are male and the love is female?

...I guess I can answer that: when you and your dear-heart subscribed to an artificial way of life in which both sexes are put into tiny little boxes of "should's" and "must never's." :doh:

[salex]

Back to where one FJian's dad said, "There is WORK, not men's work and women's work."

I love it.

I see where Stacy McDonald is over the moon at the loverly irony of her husband bringing her a cup of coffee while she reads an article he's written about patriarchy (he's for it).

One of her friends kvells further about how beautimous it is that Stacy appreciates the gesture and that she thanks her husband for it and that she brags about him/it.

Good night of living. When did treating the love of your life to a hot beverage become the neatest, most out-of-the-box wonderful thing to do -- just because you are male and the love is female?

...I guess I can answer that: when you and your dear-heart subscribed to an artificial way of life in which both sexes are put into tiny little boxes of "should's" and "must never's." :doh:

Imagine how jealous they would be if they knew that my husband makes breakfast nearly every morning and brings me coffee, wine and the occasional gin and tonic.... :dance:

[samurai_sarah]

Back to where one FJian's dad said, "There is WORK, not men's work and women's work."

I love it.

I see where Stacy McDonald is over the moon at the loverly irony of her husband bringing her a cup of coffee while she reads an article he's written about patriarchy (he's for it).

One of her friends kvells further about how beautimous it is that Stacy appreciates the gesture and that she thanks her husband for it and that she brags about him/it.

Good night of living. When did treating the love of your life to a hot beverage become the neatest, most out-of-the-box wonderful thing to do -- just because you are male and the love is female?

...I guess I can answer that: when you and your dear-heart subscribed to an artificial way of life in which both sexes are put into tiny little boxes of "should's" and "must never's." :doh:

Sadly, that attitude isn't restricted to the fundie world. My (male) partner makes me breakfast every morning, usually sandwiches that he likes to "decorate", and coffee. I don't know how we got onto the topic in my circle of friends, but everyone was gushing about how nice that is, and what a great catch he is. Uhm...I make dinner every night? He's a morning person, and enjoys making breakfast. I'm a night-owl, and enjoy making dinner.

So, not quite as extreme as in the fundie world, I'd say, but that sort of thinking is still prevalent. *sigh*

eta cross-posted with Salex

[julie paradox]

I think breakfast is slightly different, though.

I grew up in a household where everyone had breakfast at different times and got it themselves, so I think that getting breakfast for someone else is a Special Act of Love and Devotion (even though I do it for my sons every day, that's different).

[samurai_sarah]

I think breakfast is slightly different, though.

I grew up in a household where everyone had breakfast at different times and got it themselves, so I think that getting breakfast for someone else is a Special Act of Love and Devotion (even though I do it for my sons every day, that's different).

I'd say that it also depends on the sort of breakfast that you're used to, and/or what constitutes "breakfast" in your cultural background. Where I come from, breakfast is a sandwich (bread, butter and cold cuts or cheese - because that'd just be crazy :lol: ). Lunch is the main meal of the day, and then sandwiches again for dinner. So, I don't find it a particular special act that he makes me a sandwich while he makes his own, and leaves it out for me, as I usually get up later.

Edited to add: I can see your point for the environment I live in now. Breakfast foods in the UK are quite varied and sometimes rather elaborate, so maybe I just gave my friends the wrong impression, when I said "breakfast", and meant my definition of breakfast.

[Marserin]

Lompoc, California. http://www.sbcvote.com/ClerkRecorder/ma ... enses.aspx

$100 for the license

$23 Non-refundable wedding ceremony reservation fee

$104 Wedding ceremony performance in Santa Barbara Hall of Records, Santa Maria & Lompoc offices

$51 if you don't have your own witness

Last time I looked into it since I didn't think even a license would be that much, the ceremony stuff was lumped as justice of the peace. So barebones is $227 as of today, $276 if you need a witness.

The federal personal exemption doesn't double if you get married. It goes from the 1 for each of you, to about 1.5 for both of you after you get married. Since they both work, the 1 exemption they each get now is more than if they got married and they lost half a point. They're both on his insurance, and claimed married, and were never asked for a coy of a license. I don't know of any married people who had to use it for insurance.

California is pretty loose with who can perform a wedding ceremony so $20 bucks for a Universal Life Church DIY ordination and you are covered. You might also want to buy the friend who performs it a beer and a beer or two for the witness.

$100 for the license

$20 bucks for the ULC ordination (if you have multiple couples this can be split)

$15 for a quality six pack for the couple, officiant, witnesses (you could also buy a bottle of Charles Shaw for 2.50)

Some cities are even less than $100, so if you have a friend who will loan a living room or a back yard in one of those cities, you could even keep costs under $100 dollars.

[snarktastic]

How odd. My kids have no religion, spend all their time on school, sports and gallivanting around with friends, but somehow can still cook themselves their tea when they get hungry and swipe a duster over the furniture. I don't think I ever gave them special dusting lessons either.

Fundy housework must be an awful lot more complicated than godless housework.

[Hane]

The first time my ex and I filed our federal income taxes jointly, we got hammered because we both were gainfully employed but didn't own a house (which would have given us a tax credit on the mortgage). The next year, when we had a house, we made out OK.

This whole "resistant to homemaking!!!OMG!!!11!!!" thing reminds me of a commercial I saw as a kid circa 1960: In it, a little girl is on her way out the door to play baseball with the neighborhood boys, but her mother pulls her back in because "It's time you learned how to make a chocolate cake!" The girl 's cries of "But--the team!" go unheeded, and, by dang, she bakes up a Duncan Hines cake and all the boys LOVE it--and her implied new girliness.

The commercial pissed me off. Yes, to this day I'd far rather bake cakes than play baseball ( blecch), but I felt for the kid who was forced to renege on a promise because being the RIGHT kind of girl RIGHT NOW was such a big emergency--as if she'd sprout a penis and whiskers if she didn't submit to society's bidding.

[FloraKitty35]

They should ask Steve Maxwell.... :whistle:

Resistance is futile in Maxhell.