Fundies and A Christmas Carol

[thoughtful]

TCM is showing various filmed versions of Dickens' A Christmas Carol tonight.

I've been wondering whether the fundies we discuss embrace this story, or reject it. They claim Christianity, but many sound very Scrooge-like when discussing the needs of poor people. Some rant about the "war on Christmas," some don't celebrate because Christmas is "too pagan."

Does anyone know how various fundies feel about this story?

My guesses:

Maxwells -- it's much too festive and open to caring about people outside the family, with not enough fear of SIN. I bet Steve wishes he could just read/watch the part where the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come shows Scrooge his grave and any film version that shows Scrooge imagining Hell, though. And he surely doesn't want his family thinking about the idea that someone might have turned inward and become miserable due to his past, and that this attitude might be (you should pardon the expression) reversible.

Duggars -- they may like it, without paying much attention to the message. I don't know if ATI approves. Michelle just watches to count the Cratchit children and gloat because she has more.

Doug -- adores the costumes, ignores the message.

PP and ZZ -- ignore it, or point to the Cratchits as a fine example of people who just keep having children despite poverty, and assume they all get spanked 2-4 times daily. They probably think Scrooge is bitter and lonely, and Marley condemned to carry his chain, because they were lovers (hell, they misread the Bible -- why not Dickens?).

Ray Comfort - not enough bananas.

Kirk Cameron -- pissed off because nobody ever cast him in a version.

Lori -- too much charity, not enough wifely submission and child-beating. Oh, and those pesky ghosts are as bad as babies when it comes to disturbing poor Scrooge's sleep.

The Pearls -- too much charity, not nearly enough child-beating, no hunting or fishing, silly 19th-century clothes and British accents.

Botkins - too much charity, not enough world domination -- and that horrible oldest Cratchit daughter works for someone other than her father.

Kelly -- won't let her kids read or watch it, for fear they will get the idea that even a poor family should expect an entire goose, potatoes, plum pudding and punch, not two chicken breasts dissolved into watery rice. Prefers the workhouse chapters of Oliver Twist.

David and Pris -- she loves it openly, he loves it secretly, but is not sure Gothard approves.

Gothard -- "charity begins in my office, dammit."

So, what do you think? Both serious and silly answers are welcome -- I couldn't find any solid information online.

[PennySycamore]

I think that if fundies do watch any of the movie versions of A Christmas Carol or read the original by Dickens they'd either view it very superficially or wouldn't like it at all. I do agree that Pris might like it and not just superficially.

[Janes Heir]

The fundies I know would be most concerned by the "ghosts".

[docmom]

As it depicts what life was really like for most people in the 1800s, I'm guessing they don't like it. Just went to a local performance. Didn't see any fundies in the audience. Agree that Dougie would love the costumes, though.

[thoughtful]

The fundies I know would be most concerned by the "ghosts".

I didn't even think of that aspect.

As it depicts what life was really like for most people in the 1800s, I'm guessing they don't like it.

Yep -- Ignorance and Want cowering under the Ghost of Christmas Present's robe might hit home too much.

Especially since he says:

'They are Man's,' said the Spirit, looking down upon

them. 'And they cling to me, appealing from their fathers.

This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both,

and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy,

for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the

writing be erased. Deny it.' cried the Spirit, stretching out

its hand towards the city. 'Slander those who tell it ye.

Admit it for your factious purposes, and make it worse.

And abide the end.'

I have read claims that Dickens was concerned that what little schooling there was offered to poor children was heavy on religion and light on practical knowledge. Sound familiar?

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

The OP made me laugh out loud :-). Well, we love the book, and our favorite movie version is the one with Patrick Stewart.

[maybeizfundie]

Most that I know are quite fond of it.

I do think that the "ghosts" would be more of a concern to some than anything else.

[ladidah]

Dickens, A Christmas Carol, and all things nineteenth-century were very popular among the Christian conservatives I knew growing up.

[nokidsmom]

Not to mention the Jack Chick tract version of A Christmas Carol. That my fundie cousin sent in a Christmas card.

[Closed Womb]

I watched the Patrick Stewart version last night. From what I know of Fundies, they would not be upset about the social injustice part of the story. They really do believe that people should take care of their fellow man, just not through the government (at least this was true in the fundie circles I knew.) Donations were taken up for anything from broken dryers to major medical bills, if someone couldn't afford a hardship. Scrooge buying the Christmas Goose would be right up their alley.

But, there was a distinct divide in all of the fundie (and fundie-ish) churches I went to, between the "Christmas" people and the "Non-Christmas people" (the people who considered themselves on the side of TRUTH, I prefer to call them "religious" -- an insult in my little circle, akin to pharisee.) So, in my experience, the ghosts are no big deal (those are just written off as Scrooge's dreams) and the social commentary wasn't really addressed, but pass the smelling salts over acknowledging Christmas, the not-birthday of Christ.

(FWIW, the whole Christmas thing is the first thing to really opened my eyes to hypocrisy. So, you want GOD in every-damn-thing, but the one time of year Jesus appears in the secular world, you bitch? For reals?)

[lizziesmom]

The OP made me laugh out loud :-). Well, we love the book, and our favorite movie version is the one with Patrick Stewart.

I think I've seen almost every movie version this year. My two favorites are Christmas Carol with Patrick Stewart which was on last night and Scrooge, the musical version with Albert Finney.

[debrand]

Voddie Bauchman would wonder if Cratchit's daughters were keeping him from cheating.

Mark Driscoll would believe that Scrooge's real problem was that he hadn't punched any effeminate pastors.

[fun2beme]

My favorite version is the Muppets one but I wonder if the fundies would see that as bestiality?

[thoughtful]

Voddie Bauchman would wonder if Cratchit's daughters were keeping him from cheating.

Mark Driscoll would believe that Scrooge's real problem was that he hadn't punched any effeminate pastors.

:lol:

I knew I missed a few.

Driscoll and the Maxwells would probably be upset with the 1938 film (which I refer to as the passel o' Lockharts version) because some of the people were not thin!

My apologies to fans of the 1970 musical, but, that "Thank You Very Much" song gives me an earworm that is my idea of Hell on earth! :lol:

[thoughtful]

Not to mention the Jack Chick tract version of A Christmas Carol. That my fundie cousin sent in a Christmas card.

Oh, my. I guess Dickens' focusing on the generosity and change of attitude wasn't enough for Chick -- way too secular.

I found it online:

chick.com/reading/tracts/0092/0092_01.asp

[Avalondaughter]

Has anyone seen this Mad parody of the story told by Ronald Reagan? This is the perfect Christian conservative version.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024154685

[GeoBQn]

On a side note, one of my friends from theatre has kids who are in a local production of A Christmas Carol. One day, she posted a Facebook message asking, "How do I explain to my kids the meaning of 'G-d bless us, everyone' when I've raised my children with no concept of G-d?" The discussion about it was very interesting.

[kpmom]

Scrooge's attitude change came from ghosts, not God, so I imagine the extreme fundies would not like it. I always liked how the ghosts allowed Scrooge to put himself in other's shoes, and that is ultimately what changed him. Well, that, and seeing how nobody mourned him after he died.

IIRC, God is not actually mentioned in the play, which is interesting. In some ways, the play could appeal to everyone regardless of beliefs (or lack).

[thoughtful]

Has anyone seen this Mad parody of the story told by Ronald Reagan? This is the perfect Christian conservative version.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024154685

:lol:

I like the last paragraph starting with "Well," -- I can just hear Reagan's voice.

At this point, many conservatives are giving up the Reagan-worship; it seems he was too liberal. :shock:

[ADoyle90815]

Scrooge's attitude change came from ghosts, not God, so I imagine the extreme fundies would not like it. I always liked how the ghosts allowed Scrooge to put himself in other's shoes, and that is ultimately what changed him. Well, that, and seeing how nobody mourned him after he died.

IIRC, God is not actually mentioned in the play, which is interesting. In some ways, the play could appeal to everyone regardless of beliefs (or lack).

That's why I don't think fundies would really like A Christmas Carol, as they want God in the form of the Holy Ghost to change his attitude. Also, many ultra conservative politicians actually share some of his original views, with cutting things like food stamps that help the poor. In other words, they think that "if they're going to die, then they should just do it and decrease the surplus population." Those people are backing away from the Regan worship as they now consider him too liberal.

[permanentproblem]

From a Christian movie review site run by a stay at home daughter (I think, anyway):

purityandprecision.com/2010/12/movie-review-christmas-carol-1951.html

purityandprecision.com/2013/12/disneys-christmas-carol.html

She is usually pretty strict regarding the moral content of the movies she reviews, but she seemed to like both these versions.

[PennySycamore]

The Passel of Lockharts version is perfect for the 1938 version! Gene played Bob Cratchit, his wife Kathleen played Mrs Cratchit and daughter June played their daughter Belinda.

That version of A Christmas Carol has three actors who were in another Christmas movie. Gene played the judge in Miracle on 34th Street, June was in Meet Me in St Louis, and Ann Rutherford was in Love Finds Andy Hardy.

[debrand]

:lol:

I like the last paragraph starting with "Well," -- I can just hear Reagan's voice.

At this point, many conservatives are giving up the Reagan-worship; it seems he was too liberal. :shock:

I am no fan of Reagan but he was too liberal for the Tea Party.

[Jinger_Cat]

I think most fundies would find fault with the fact that the eldest Cratchett daughter works outside the home. She should be earning her Master's in Homemaking and homeschooling her younger siblings.

Of course, Lori and Zsu would say that Tiny Tim's health problems are a result of the family's non-organic diet.

[thoughtful]

From a Christian movie review site run by a stay at home daughter (I think, anyway):

purityandprecision.com/2010/12/movie-review-christmas-carol-1951.html

purityandprecision.com/2013/12/disneys-christmas-carol.html

She is usually pretty strict regarding the moral content of the movies she reviews, but she seemed to like both these versions.

Thanks for finding these. She certainly has some issues with them, though, which are pretty fundie-licious:

Worldview:

Even my favorite version has ghosts in it, unfortunately, which makes the worldview less than completely satisfactory. The Ghosts of Christmas are easy enough to deal with, of course: they’re either dreams or they’re symbolic (even if they can “do anythingâ€). The ghost of Jacob Marley is a more questionable element, despite his portrayal in this movie leaving ample room for the possibility that it was only a dream (or a slight disorder of the stomach). As in the original story, Marley’s ghost briefly tells Scrooge that the spirits of dead men are required to walk abroad, and that they seek to interfere in human matters, but have lost the power. That last part is correct, of course, but it’s not just referring to the idea of sending a Lazarus back to witness to the rich man’s brothers*, but to helping those who are suffering from poverty here on earth. And ghostly wanderings aren’t mentioned in Scripture.

Even Bob Cratchit has a questionable line about life in eternity. After Tiny Tim’s death, Bob tells his wife that, at the cemetery, he felt Tim’s hand slip into his own. “He was telling me, you see, in his own little way, that he’s happy—truly happy now, and we must cease to grieve for him and try to be happy, too.†It’s not presented in a confident, doctrinal sort of way, but it warrants putting in the review.

There are even some generally good things that may need clarified for younger viewers, because they are so unusual, not just in A Christmas Carol, but anywhere else—things like images of conviction without repentance, and repentance without faith.

(snip)

Cultural Stumbling-Blocks:

“…when in my cups.†And in Christmas Present, the Cratchit family boasts of two toasts’ worth of gin punch, while another reference to punch leaves its contents unidentified.

Sexual Content:

If you’re paying close attention, you’ll see a doll in a shop window that is wearing a low-cut dress. If you’re paying even a moderate amount of attention, you’ll notice that Nephew Fred’s wife is revealing all of her shoulders and most of her chest. Black and white helps a bit on that account. It’s doesn’t help with the kiss, though, and you’ll probably notice that whether you’re paying much attention or not. Ebenezer and his lady love in Christmas Past sit side by side, arms around each other, while she initially declines his proposal of marriage (you might also want to note the incongruity, there). There is some dancing, but it’s the polka, not the waltz, and it really doesn’t have any romantic overtones.

Brief Immodesty and Sensuality

A phantom girl is briefly shown transforming into a woman in the dress of a nineteenth-century harlot and moving sensually and disturbingly around an alarmed and repulsed Scrooge. The segments lasts only a couple of seconds.

A few women are seen in low-necked dresses. A male character’s robe hangs open, revealing his chest.

Couples are seen waltzing.

Brief Language

G-d

h-ll

Blast!

Good heavens!

Merciful heavens!

The word “ass†is used twice to mean simultaneously an animal and an idiot.

Mild Ethical Confusion

Phantom children, named and representing Ignorance and Want, are briefly shown transforming into wicked adults, potentially communicating the idea that poverty and lack of education are the causes of sin. However, that is not a necessary conclusion from the scene.

At one point, Scrooge accuses the Ghost of Christmas Present of depriving the poor once a week by closing the bakery, where they had been allowed to cook their own food after hours, every seventh day. The Ghost rebukes him and states that those “so-called men of the cloth†who require the closing of the establishments, do their selfish, evil deeds in the name of Christmas but are complete strangers to it. This mildly implies a connection between the doctrine of the sabbath and corrupt religious people.

Note:

Characters mention Christmas punch, and a song references wassail. Darkly-portrayed phantoms drink from bottles and barrels.

A man takes snuff.