Calvinism And Fundies

[Patsy]

Really liking this discussion. I don't know much about it at all, so asking for clarity:

...God therefore acts on that man who is helpless to help himself and "wakes him up" from his state of spiritual death so that he can see and recognize God as his savior... Man essentially appears to have a choice, but it is only an illusion from where he's standing.

This is a good answer for me about what Calvinists believe re: the actual moment of salvation. Could anyone chip in and share if they think most people whose views could be described as 'Calvinist' would basically agree with this? That a person makes a choice to accept salvation, but that God has opened them up to it, and that's how you get saved?

The usual 'formula' I've heard is you believe, are convicted, choose to get saved, repent, accept salvation, and then it's done forever. When I hear people who I assume believe basically this saying something like "God opened me up" or that they are praying for someone to be open to God's word, is that a sign that they are probably actually Calvinist? If you make the definition too open, I don't really see how any born-again Christian could NOT be Calvinist.

On the very extreme end of arminianism is open theism. There is a god, but he is pretty impotent. The earth and life is just something like a clock that he created and then wound (or into which he installed a battery). God basically sits back, watches what happens and crosses his fingers, waiting to see if things turn out well.

I've heard 'deism' used to summarise this basic idea just as well.

[Patsy]

I struggle with the concept of total depravity...

Actually, I struggle now with the whole concept of god.

OT very briefly, but this is part of 'nice' fundieism I don't get. My one-year-old niece has not sinned. She has not done anything wrong, and she has certainly not done anything wrong that warrants offense on the part of a creator. Fact. And by the time a kid is five, by the time you can say 'Yes, they've genuinely chosen to do the wrong thing on occasion,' how can this warrant eternal punishment? To get into that worldview - especially if it extends to the point that all are BORN in sin (and it almost always does) - something has to be very wrong. I know we have fundamentalist and born-again posters here, so I realise this may come across as insulting, but here it is: I think there's something evil about looking at any baby and saying 'You are worthless. You deserve punishment.' And no amount of talking about how God is soooo perfect and sooooo good in comparison will change me on that. It's just wrong and twisted to be able to believe that. No matter how nice you are to minorities after that, you've still basically dedicated yourself to something that to me, is so twisted it defies belief.

And that's just original sin, that's not even getting into total depravity.

All done. Back to the interesting discussion.

[Brainsample]

Really liking this discussion. I don't know much about it at all, so asking for clarity:

This is a good answer for me about what Calvinists believe re: the actual moment of salvation. Could anyone chip in and share if they think most people whose views could be described as 'Calvinist' would basically agree with this?

If it is helpful at all, I've drawn on my study of the topic and my "waking up" comment derives nearly directly from RC Sproul's writings and audio. His book "Chosen by God" talks about it, and it is usually stated as the premise that "regeneration [initiated by God] precedes faith [which is then extended by the believer, after God has regenerated them/awakened them]."

ligonier.org/learn/articles/new-birth/