Ron Paul, a Holocaust Denier

[kolga]

Recent research shows that the scope of the Holocaust was far greater than we had realized:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/sunday-review/the-holocaust-just-got-more-shocking.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

(not breaking because it's a news site - if that's a problem, please let me know!)

To get back to the OP - Ron Paul's support of this kind of filth should end, once and for all, any treatment of him as a legitimate political figure in this country. It won't, of course, but it should. :cry:

[OkToBeTakei]

I have a question about the Holocaust.

How well known were the concentration camps at the time (1930's-1940's)? Did the average American hear about them prior to the end of the war and the release of the prisoners? I know the ghettos were well known, but I'm unsure of the gas chambers, experiments, etc.

I'm curious because of the chain of events occurring in Russia right now. How much is possibly going on that we don't know about?

What chain of events?

[Ariel]

The laws against gay people in Russia. Specifically, it seems like Russia is gearing up to legally take children away from their parents if the parents are gay or allies. This sort of thing makes me even more nervous about human rights abuses that may happen in the future, and how aware of them other countries may or may not be.

[Cannelle]

Ariel, I thought about the situation in Russia in regards to gay people as well- how far is this going to go? :(

Holocaust denial is utterly ridiculous, almost like an Onion article. I mean, can you imagine if it were another historical event? American Civil War denial? Denial of the Great Depression? Plague denial? It's Antisemitism and that's it.

[rward]

Only a few hundred thousand Jews lost their lives? Even if that were true, it would be appalling all on its own!

[Khan]

I don't see how any form of genocide is ok.

Cannelle, I ,too, wonder how far Russia will go with their anti gay legislations. I fear this may escalate into something truly terrifying.

[OkToBeTakei]

The laws against gay people in Russia. Specifically, it seems like Russia is gearing up to legally take children away from their parents if the parents are gay or allies. This sort of thing makes me even more nervous about human rights abuses that may happen in the future, and how aware of them other countries may or may not be.

There is no law 'against' gay people in Russia. The legislation passed in June amended Russia's child protection law with a clause covering "the propagandising of non-traditional sexual relations among minors". This prescribes fines for providing information about homosexuality to people under 18. These range from 4,000 roubles (£78; $121) for an individual to 1m roubles for organisations.

It's a nasty little law and whilst it is legal to engage in gay relationships in Russia it is certainly cited as more difficult than other countries.

Sergei Lavrov, Russia's urbane foreign minister, put it like this: "Homosexuality, as you know, used to be a criminal act in the Soviet Union. This article in the criminal code has long been repealed and homosexuals can do their thing absolutely freely and without punishment."

But he added that gay people could not be allowed to "aggressively promote their values, which are different from those of the majority, and to impose them on children".

Sounds a bit like the US conservative right to me and in no way an indication of another impending holocaust. Nasty little law but there again any country that is not pushing for gay marriage appears that way to me.

[Anxious Girl]

There is no law 'against' gay people in Russia. The legislation passed in June amended Russia's child protection law with a clause covering "the propagandising of non-traditional sexual relations among minors". This prescribes fines for providing information about homosexuality to people under 18. These range from 4,000 roubles (£78; $121) for an individual to 1m roubles for organisations.

It's a nasty little law and whilst it is legal to engage in gay relationships in Russia it is certainly cited as more difficult than other countries.

Sounds a bit like the US conservative right to me and in no way an indication of another impending holocaust. Nasty little law but there again any country that is not pushing for gay marriage appears that way to me.

How is that not anti-gay?

[wild little fox]

How can Christians reconsile this with what God says in the bible: "Those Who Bless Israel Will Be Blessed, and Those Who Curse Israel Will Be Cursed."

[OkToBeTakei]

How is that not anti-gay?

I did not say it is not anti-gay. So is not allowing or recognising civil gay partnerships or marriage. How many countries allow their school children lessons on homosexuality as they do heterosexual sexual relations? Is there plenty of positive gay education leaflets lying about the schools where you live? Come to that how many positive heterosexual sexual lifestyle/practice leaflets are there in schools anywhere? Contraception advice, sexual health etc, etc.

Whilst making a law to say that minors should not be taught that homosexuality is a norm as heterosexuality is (as perceived by some) in my view is awful, let us be very honest here and realise that is exactly the way it is anyway in most countries.

As a European I am far more concerned about the possibility that the US right will come into power than I am about Russia a European country in the EU without borders being able to commit holocaust proportion atrocities secretly. I just sense a little bit of animosity/ignorance lack of knowledge born of the old Commie enemy in these comments.

It could happen in any country at any time, I would never be so naive to think it could not. It could, given the right circumstances just as likely be my country or yours.

Russia’s courts and diplomats — and President Putin — cannot be trusted to explain the status of gay rights in the country, but the European Court of Human Rights can. In April 2011, the Strasbourg court fined Russia for violating articles 11, 13, and 14 of the European Convention by banning 164 pride events and marches between 2006 and 2008. The unanimous decision in Alekseyev v. Russia came into force after the Russian government lost its appeal in Strasbourg, yet although the Kremlin paid the fine, they continued to ban pride rallies. In May 2012, a district court in Moscow issued a ruling banning such events in the city until May 2112. That’s Russia’s approach: pay the fine, admit nothing, and make things worse.

Horrific. Not though a secret.

Anyway not to dilute the fact I think it is a totally shitty law, just that in the spirit of this thread why are we talking about Russia when whilst they seem to be taking a backward step there are in fact 76 countries in the world where it is still a criminal offence to be gay.

[Ariel]

Anyway not to dilute the fact I think it is a totally shitty law, just that in the spirit of this thread why are we talking about Russia when whilst they seem to be taking a backward step there are in fact 76 countries in the world where it is still a criminal offence to be gay.

You definitely make some great points OTBT. I'm not trying to say that wide spread genocide in Russia is imminent. I'm more concerned with the idea of human right's abuses that are happening under the radar at smaller proportions.

The parallel I'm seeing between 2013 Russia and Germany during the Holocaust is the perceived notion, from other countries like the US, that a modern country would never perform something so heinous. The US will happily step into the fray with countries deemed 'inferior' to prevent human rights abuses ( or at least trumpet about like they're doing something). However, it's a stickier and much more sensitive subject with a country that is considered an equal.

Part of the reason why I think the Holocaust is denied is because it's a horrific and ugly thing that was perpetrated by a modern European nation. No one wants to believe that a country so similar to our own could do such awful things.

Just like people are very shocked (in a way that does not support a "animosity/ignorance lack of knowledge born of the old Commie enemy") that a modern country, that prior to this incident has been doing okay human right's wise for many years, has begun legally harassing a minority group.

Edited to Add: Here's the proposed bill I mentioned in my first post: nytimes.com/2013/09/06/world/europe/russia-bill-would-allow-children-to-be-taken-away-from-gay-parents.html?_r=0

It hasn't been passed yet, but it has been proposed by the majority party so it's certainly not a long-shot.

I'm just being a little inflammatory here, but the Nazi's stole Eastern European children from their parents in order to Aryan-ize them.

"It is our duty to take [the children] with us to remove them from their environment... either we win over any good blood that we can use for ourselves and give it a place in our people or we destroy this blood" as stated by Himmler.

I imagine that's a pretty similar rationale to that used by Russian lawmakers trying to take children from their 'bad influence' parents.

[OkToBeTakei]

Here's the proposed bill I mentioned in my first post: nytimes.com/2013/09/06/world/europe/russia-bill-would-allow-children-to-be-taken-away-from-gay-parents.html?_r=0

It hasn't been passed yet, but it has been proposed by the majority party so it's certainly not a long-shot.

You definitely make some great points OTBT. I'm not trying to say that wide spread genocide in Russia is imminent. I'm more concerned with the idea of human right's abuses that are happening under the radar at smaller proportions.

The parallel I'm seeing between 2013 Russia and Germany during the Holocaust is the perceived notion, from other countries like the US, that a modern country would never perform something so heinous. The US will happily step into the fray with countries deemed 'inferior' to prevent human rights abuses ( or at least trumpet about like they're doing something). However, it's a stickier and much more sensitive subject with a country that is considered an equal.

Part of the reason why I think the Holocaust is denied is because it's a horrific and ugly thing that was perpetrated by a modern European nation. No one wants to believe that a country so similar to our own could do such awful things.

Just like people are very shocked (in a way that does not support a "animosity/ignorance lack of knowledge born of the old Commie enemy") that a modern country, that prior to this incident has been doing okay human right's wise for many years, has begun legally harassing a minority group.

I do not disagree with you but the very fact we are discussing it, siting our individual sources proves to me in some way that it reaching the levels of holocaust less (I hope) likely. This a huge difference from the 1930's and 40's.

As for the parallel of modern countries viewing each other, let me use a different analogy. There is a thread on this forum where a preacher is calling for people to attend gay marriages and hold up death sentence placards. In my country he would be arrested. I am quite happy about this. If I wish to have an abortion and on entering a clinic I am upset because protesters are telling me I am killing my 'baby' they too will be arrested. Should I decide to go on public transport and stand up and say loudly I think every Muslim is an evil bastard and should die. I will be arrested. The US calls that 'free speech' and goes on at length why this should be protected amongst other rather strange rights, which make no sense to me.

We are all products of our own upbringings which in turn is moulded by our education, history and laws. We all see the rest of the world through those lenses and it can look very different depending on where you live.

I think Russia's reaction to their recent law changes are very much under a microscope and I hope remains so with ever more scrutiny. I find the law they have introduced as horrific.

They have however indefinitely suspended the death sentence and nobody has been executed since 1996. Handgun ownership is illegal. Is there a perfect country? No. Mine? Definitely not. In a way the highlight this law has brought Russia highlights the fact that whilst most countries do not have such laws there are large facets of those societies who would like to have them, would support them and welcome them. Whilst I do not wish the discrimination to continue in Russia I also suspect many countries are watching keenly and NOT for the reasons you and I are concerned.

Interestingly neither Obama or the UK PM made any comment on the law whilst many, many others spoke out against it :think:

ETA. I do not think the reason holocaust deniers do so is because of the reason you give. It was not a consideration in my demographic, history is fact. It is denied in the main, because of pure and basic anti-semitism.

[nolongerIFBx]

How can Christians reconsile this with what God says in the bible: "Those Who Bless Israel Will Be Blessed, and Those Who Curse Israel Will Be Cursed."

You got me. I was always raised, "We support Israel!" with the men wearing pins on their suit coats of the Israel and American flags together. I will be looking into this further, 'cause I can understand not supporting Israel for merely religious reasons (this is a reason why some Christians pulled their RP vote in 2012) but not denying that the Holocaust happened.

[PennySycamore]

Ariel, I thought about the situation in Russia in regards to gay people as well- how far is this going to go? :(

Holocaust denial is utterly ridiculous, almost like an Onion article. I mean, can you imagine if it were another historical event? American Civil War denial? Denial of the Great Depression? Plague denial? It's Antisemitism and that's it.

There are a few (well, maybe more than a few) on the right that say that the Great Depression wasn't so bad. They are nuts, of course.

[Sobeknofret]

No one really knew the extent of it until toward the end of the war. There were rumors about what was going on, but the true extent wasn't known until the liberations in 1944 and 1945. Civilians didn't really know about it at all until the evidence was shown. People living near the concentration camps didn't even realize what was going on until Allied troops made them tour the camps and showed them the evidence.

This is only partially true. People knew about the camps pretty early on, and that Jews and other "undesirables" were being taken to the camps, but the Final Solution wasn't widely known until later. Escapees from camps, although few in number, were spreading news about the horrors pretty early in '42 (a report from a Chelmno escapee was in London by June of '42), but, to be frank, anti-Semitic immigration policies were in place in both England and the US and no one cared enough about it to change them. American and British pilots reconnoitered Auschwitz, and although the opportunity to bomb the rail lines that led into the complex was there, it was not done until quite late in the war.

The NY Times even ran a report in 2001, stating that editors of that paper had deliberately minimized reports of the Holocaust during the war, suppressing the reports and never publishing them.

[crassy]

I've wondered if the Duggars are Holocaust deniers, or at least downplayers. It seems like something they would latch onto.

In 2005, I had the privilege of hearing a Holocaust survivor named Mania Salinger speak at the Holocaust Memorial Center in Michigan. During the Q&A segment, somebody asked about her tattoo. She said she had it removed decades before, after a conversation with her daughter. Her daughter, who was then two years old, asked what the numbers were. Mrs. Salinger said it was their telephone number. Her daughter asked, "What happens when we move?" I will never forget meeting Mrs. Salinger and hearing her story.

ETA: Mrs. Salinger wrote a book called Looking Back that is available on Amazon, if anybody's interested.

I don't think they are. They are big Israel supporters (complete with flags all over the house). I am pretty sure you can't be an Israel supporter and be a holocaust denier. Or if you were, that would be really effing weird.

[Jana814]

I don't think they are. They are big Israel supporters (complete with flags all over the house). I am pretty sure you can't be an Israel supporter and be a holocaust denier. Or if you were, that would be really effing weird.

Really I did not know that about the Maxwells that they were supports of Israel. Interesting, wonder why.

[Kailash]

Only a few hundred thousand Jews lost their lives? Even if that were true, it would be appalling all on its own!

Exactly! How about we take only a few hundred thousand dollars from the idiot who said such a thing and see if that doesn't give him some perspective?!

[Alice_Fraggle]

Add me to the list of "how the eff can you deny the Holocaust?" I mean, where did the people go if they weren't brutally murdered, tortured or gassed? Did the aliens take them? Did they disappear? I don't understand it - not one bit.

[Jana814]

I don't get either how people can denie the Holocaust. As someone who is Jewish it's hard to believe. Granted as a Jewish person I have had feel bad for me because they think I lost someone who was in it. Which is not true.

[OkToBeTakei]

Just a note of interest.

Germany, Austria, Belgium, Poland, Spain and France, Holocaust denial is a specific criminal offence. In Canada, Holocaust denial can be prosecuted as a hate crime.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/a ... ust-denial

A British Roman Catholic bishop, who had been excommunicated and rehabilitated, was fined €10,000 (£8,765) by a German court yesterday for denying the Holocaust during a Swedish television interview.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/holocaust- ... ison-term/

Bavarian officials say the one-time member of the now-defunct German People’s Union party was a known Holocaust denier who used the Internet to spread far-right propaganda between 2002 and 2004.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2007 ... rmany.html

A German court on Thursday convicted Ernst Zundel of 14 counts of incitement of racial hatred and sentenced him to five years in prison, the maximum allowed under German law for denying the Holocaust.

http://rense.com/general69/disg.htm

Some people may be offended by those who play down Jewish death and suffering during World War II. But free and open societies protect even offensive speech.

Well to be honest I have no problem at all at all with hate speech laws, none at all. The majority of civilised society does not really want the right to freely be racist or bigoted and perpetuate their hate publicaly.

But as Mr Kerry says

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/0 ... ays-in-blu

We live and breathe the idea of religious freedom and religious tolerance, whatever the religion, and political freedom and political tolerance, whatever the point of view. I mean, you know, some people have sometimes wondered about why our Supreme Court allows one group or another to march in a parade, even though it’s the most provocative thing in the world, and they carry signs that are an insult to one group or another. And the reason is, that’s freedom, freedom of speech. In America you have a right to be stupid, if you want to be, and you have a right to be disconnected to somebody else if you want to be. And we tolerate it. We somehow make it through that. Now, I think that’s a virtue. I think that’s something worth fighting for.

OR it could be dangerous?

http://www.worldpolicy.org/content/dang ... s-violence

Inflammatory public speech rises steadily before outbreaks of mass violence, suggesting that it is a precursor or even a prerequisite for violence, which makes sense: groups of killers do not form spontaneously. In most cases, a few influential speakers gradually incite a group to violence. Violence may be prevented, then, by interfering with this process in any of several ways: inhibiting the speech, limiting its dissemination, undermining the credibility of the speaker, or ‘inoculating’ the audience against the speech so that it is less influential, or dangerous. Such efforts must not infringe upon freedom of speech, however, since that is a fundamental right and since free speech itself may help to prevent violence. Before acting to limit ‘dangerous speech’ – speech that catalyzes violence – we must have a means to distinguish it from other speech, even that which is controversial or repugnant.

It's an interesting read.

The project has focused on inflammatory speech in several countries in particular, including Cote d’Ivoire, the former Yugoslavia, Egypt, and Kenya.

http://www.worldpolicy.org/sites/defaul ... 202012.pdf

A study which separates the 'stupid' from the potentially harmful. Free speech should not be used as an excuse to commit hate crimes in my humble view.