The Truth About Ruth - Part 3

[Jen0925]

I have a question, does anyone know whether NLQ vets the people that post their stories there? Could more of the features authors be faking/exaggerating their stories?

[apple1]

I have a question, does anyone know whether NLQ vets the people that post their stories there? Could more of the features authors be faking/exaggerating their stories?

Disclaimer: No personal knowledge.

I think the saga of Ruth proves that they do not vet the stories posted there. To say nothing of Vyckie's own ramblings.

[Jen0925]

That's pretty much what I thought. I guess I was wondering if one "slipped through the cracks" or if in general anyone can post a story there and if it sounds good there will be no verification. I feel bad for the people who actually are telling the truth though. This Ruth mess does them a huge disservice I think.

[louisa05]

Libby Anne at Love, Joy, Feminism responds to a suggestion that she remove RR from her links:

I'm leaving it. If she officially comes out as a fraud, I'll take it down, but until then I'm just sick of the piranha nitpicking I've seen go on over this issue.

:angry-banghead:

Someone then points out that it is highly unlikely that she is going to announce herself as a fraud. Response:

I have never required any of the bloggers listed on this page to *prove* they are not fakes. It would be a disaster if I did, as many blog under pseudonyms and for good reason.

Personally, I've always wondered about her own veracity. But I'm sure that is just me.

[Jen0925]

Libby Anne at Love, Joy, Feminism responds to a suggestion that she remove RR from her links:

:angry-banghead:

Someone then points out that it is highly unlikely that she is going to announce herself as a fraud. Response:

Personally, I've always wondered about her own veracity. But I'm sure that is just me.

Does any faker ever come out as a faker? I mean sometimes they admit it when faced with a lot of proof but I have never heard of it aside from the warrier Eli hoax page where the scammers seem to admit it. Also, in this case where fraud may have been comitted, taking people's money under false pretenses you would be crazy to admit it it just sounds like more hiding from the truth to me.

[LeatherCouch]

Libby Anne at Love, Joy, Feminism responds to a suggestion that she remove RR from her links:

:angry-banghead:

Someone then points out that it is highly unlikely that she is going to announce herself as a fraud. Response:

Personally, I've always wondered about her own veracity. But I'm sure that is just me.

I'm all jacked up on allergy meds, so this may not make sense, and maybe I shouldn't say anything at all because it's really none of my business, but I like to play Devil's Advocate, so... There are a lot of people in the X-ATI community that have decided to clam up now. Their stories are as crazy as RR's, and they are seeing things in these RR discussions being pointed to as red flags that they have experienced, and seen others go through. Their struggles are real, their crazy stories are real, but nobody is going to believe them now, are they? So why bother putting yourself out there? What I'm getting at is that RR's stories are not raising the red flags with those who have left Gothardism and fundamental-religious-patriarchy like they are with the average person because most, if not all, of the scenarios RR put out there rings true for a lot of them. There is no hard evidence against RR, just a lot of circumstantial evidence and maybe Libby Anne is hesitant to remove RR from her website because of that and because RR's stories really aren't that unbelievable to her?

[Closed Womb]

Libby Anne at Love, Joy, Feminism responds to a suggestion that she remove RR from her links:

:angry-banghead:

Someone then points out that it is highly unlikely that she is going to announce herself as a fraud. Response:

Personally, I've always wondered about her own veracity. But I'm sure that is just me.

Seems to me that there's a world of difference between a pseudonym and someone making up stories whilst soliciting prayers and cash.

[wild little fox]

I have a question, does anyone know whether NLQ vets the people that post their stories there? Could more of the features authors be faking/exaggerating their stories?

I don't know but Vyckie told me in FB PM on July 12th, 2013 that she believed RR. She talked to her on the phone and had communicated with her in email (and chat IIRC.) That's all I know.

[NurseNell]

That little girl was from Chautauqua County, NY.

[okayobee]

I'm all jacked up on allergy meds, so this may not make sense, and maybe I shouldn't say anything at all because it's really none of my business, but I like to play Devil's Advocate, so... There are a lot of people in the X-ATI community that have decided to clam up now. Their stories are as crazy as RR's, and they are seeing things in these RR discussions being pointed to as red flags that they have experienced, and seen others go through. Their struggles are real, their crazy stories are real, but nobody is going to believe them now, are they? So why bother putting yourself out there? What I'm getting at is that RR's stories are not raising the red flags with those who have left Gothardism and fundamental-religious-patriarchy like they are with the average person because most, if not all, of the scenarios RR put out there rings true for a lot of them. There is no hard evidence against RR, just a lot of circumstantial evidence and maybe Libby Anne is hesitant to remove RR from her website because of that and because RR's stories really aren't that unbelievable to her?

But do they have tip jar on their blog? One of the things that RR did well was tell stories that were believable. Then after forming a community (trust, credibility) the tip jar appeared. I know someone IRL who has the same bad luck that RR portrayed on her blog. If I didn't know her well I'd say bullshit. But indeed she is the type to have a cold turn to pneumonia, a minor car issue become a major one, deaths in family one after the other, etc. It's really amazing. And then I know people on the other end of the spectrum that never get sick, never have any emergencies, never seem to struggle. I think most people fall in the middle but we tend to know people at either end of the spectrum. There's a lot of ways RR went wrong. I won't detail them because I'm sure her puppets are keeping tabs on what worked and what didn't.

[louisa05]

Here's my problem with that, LeatherCouch, the questions people initially raised about RR weren't from her stories directly related to ATI. It is quite clear that suspicions came to a head here based on the claims about the library job and the move to Chicago. That is completely unrelated to ATI. In hindsight, some people are noting a few inconsistencies in her ATI story, but that came after the rather preposterous job claims led to questions. The other thing that led to doubts was the TWOP claim of having had a baby --again, info not related to her ATI story.

I also have to wonder about all the huge secrecy. Does ATI really have a death squad ready to take out dissenters? I understand not wanting to identify oneself widely on the internet, but a lot of these people act like any identifying info will subject them to bodily harm. At the same time, there are people who are blogging quite openly about the same thing (Hillary McFarland for example) and are neither dead or injured nor seem to fear such a result.

As for Libby Anne, she has a relationship with NLQ. Her posts are frequently reposted there.

[wild little fox]

RR/PM will never really pay but other people who have legitamacy and truly needing support will be afraid to come forward and share their stories and to get help. That is the real crime here. :(

ETA: I am not blaming anyone who has outed her. Fraud should not continue. We are doing the right thing.

[Jen0925]

I don't know but Vyckie told me in FB PM on July 12th, 2013 that she believed RR. She talked to her on the phone and had communicated with her in email (and chat IIRC.) That's all I know.

Thank you!

[alwayscaffeinated]

I'm replying only to say that I've been following this (I've followed her story for a couple of years) and my mind is just blown. I'm not that shocked that she was a fake, because even though her story was compelling, there were a few red flags that left me scratching my head. My mind is just blown over the entire thing...the multiple identities, the amount of money scammed, everything.

[louisa05]

RR/PM will never really pay but other people who have legitamacy and truly needing support will be afraid to come forward and share their stories and to get help. That is the real crime here. :(

Exactly. And when sites or bloggers like Libby Anne and NLQ decide to just take their chances and leave the probable fakers next to the legitimate stories and announce that they don't care if a story is true or not...well, they just gave the world an easy reason to not believe the true dangers of these fundy extremists.

I sat in a catechists training at my Catholic parish last week with a group of people who discussed that the fundamentalists in our community are okay because they are seeking Jesus after all. I am familiar with one particular group because I had extended family that was involved in the denomination. They subscribes to all the gender role and SAHD and courtship nonsense. It is not harmless. And they want to convert our children--the Catholic kids in my parish and the kids of families who are not religious or belong to non-Christian faiths.

It makes me angry when someone lies about it all and discredits the message that these people are not just slightly misguided Christians.

[uber frau]

Here's my problem with that, LeatherCouch, the questions people initially raised about RR weren't from her stories directly related to ATI. It is quite clear that suspicions came to a head here based on the claims about the library job and the move to Chicago. That is completely unrelated to ATI. In hindsight, some people are noting a few inconsistencies in her ATI story, but that came after the rather preposterous job claims led to questions. The other thing that led to doubts was the TWOP claim of having had a baby --again, info not related to her ATI story.

I also have to wonder about all the huge secrecy. Does ATI really have a death squad ready to take out dissenters? I understand not wanting to identify oneself widely on the internet, but a lot of these people act like any identifying info will subject them to bodily harm. At the same time, there are people who are blogging quite openly about the same thing (Hillary McFarland for example) and are neither dead or injured nor seem to fear such a result.

As for Libby Anne, she has a relationship with NLQ. Her posts are frequently reposted there.

People don't leave the fundamentalism they were brought up in and lose all the baggage overnight. There are some ppl who can just walk away but for most ppl it's a long and drawn out process of having to undo the fundy mindset and do all that soul searching stuff that ppl in mainstream society do in their teenage years and young adulthood. The adjustment is hard, especially when there are other complicating factors like family and kids, and it makes sense that ppl in that situation form tribes. When a member of the tribe is attacked, the rest of the tribe tends to respond defensively. It doesn't matter whether the response is logical or not. (It's a different tribe but look at Calladus's response to the PM/PennMama thing-and he's supposed to be someone who prizes critical thinking and Occum's Razor and all that).

Secondly, privacy is something you are denied in fundyism. There is always someone watching you to make sure you perform up to standard and parents go to pretty extreme lengths to ensure their children aren't 'sinning', and it's not just the deeds their interested in, it's also the words and the thoughts (that's why ATI children are supposed to keep prayer journals-basically an outpouring of their souls that their parents can read and discuss). It's a way of keep people vulnerable and there's no wonder that people are extremely reticent. Many ppl feel they must speak out, but not at the cost of their own privacy.

[lizzielouwho]

I also have to wonder about all the huge secrecy. Does ATI really have a death squad ready to take out dissenters? I understand not wanting to identify oneself widely on the internet, but a lot of these people act like any identifying info will subject them to bodily harm. At the same time, there are people who are blogging quite openly about the same thing (Hillary McFarland for example) and are neither dead or injured nor seem to fear such a result.

I don't think its quite like that. Didn't the Keller girl (Anna D's) sister go to Big Sandy to see her family in jeans with a baby she had out of wedlock?

She would qualify as a dissenter and she was allowed to hang out at an event.

[Jen0925]

Exactly. And when sites or bloggers like Libby Anne and NLQ decide to just take their chances and leave the probable fakers next to the legitimate stories and announce that they don't care if a story is true or not...well, they just gave the world an easy reason to not believe the true dangers of these fundy extremists.

I sat in a catechists training at my Catholic parish last week with a group of people who discussed that the fundamentalists in our community are okay because they are seeking Jesus after all. I am familiar with one particular group because I had extended family that was involved in the denomination. They subscribes to all the gender role and SAHD and courtship nonsense. It is not harmless. And they want to convert our children--the Catholic kids in my parish and the kids of families who are not religious or belong to non-Christian faiths.

It makes me angry when someone lies about it all and discredits the message that these people are not just slightly misguided Christians.

You have said what I have been trying to say in your first paragraph. What the other bloggers are doing is wrong IMO. Especially NLQ.

[polecat]

People don't leave the fundamentalism they were brought up in and lose all the baggage overnight. There are some ppl who can just walk away but for most ppl it's a long and drawn out process of having to undo the fundy mindset and do all that soul searching stuff that ppl in mainstream society do in their teenage years and young adulthood. The adjustment is hard, especially when there are other complicating factors like family and kids, and it makes sense that ppl in that situation form tribes. When a member of the tribe is attacked, the rest of the tribe tends to respond defensively. It doesn't matter whether the response is logical or not. (It's a different tribe but look at Calladus's response to the PM/PennMama thing-and he's supposed to be someone who prizes critical thinking and Occum's Razor and all that).

Secondly, privacy is something you are denied in fundyism. There is always someone watching you to make sure you perform up to standard and parents go to pretty extreme lengths to ensure their children aren't 'sinning', and it's not just the deeds their interested in, it's also the words and the thoughts (that's why ATI children are supposed to keep prayer journals-basically an outpouring of their souls that their parents can read and discuss). It's a way of keep people vulnerable and there's no wonder that people are extremely reticent. Many ppl feel they must speak out, but not at the cost of their own privacy.

Yes, this. And growing up in the system leaves you with few resources. Not only have you grown up with limited contact with the outside world, but you have also been taught that "the world" is evil and filled with people who are out to hurt you. When you leave, you lose all social support, you lose any chance of financial assistance from your family, and you may even lose your family (be disowned). You are literally on your own at 17, 18 or whatever when you leave, and you may have had a substandard fundy or home education (not always, but often) or been sent to a nonaccredited Bible college. Your job prospects may be very limited, which leaves you with even more resources. You don't trust the government, and you know you can't turn to them for social assistance becuz ebil and Satan and whatnot.

ATI may not have a death squad, but what they, and other IFB or fundy monoliths have is equally effective. It's not easy to leave even when you don't believe in any of it.

ETA: Never mind. I misunderstood the conversation. I have no idea why they are rallying around someone who has been outed as a fraud, but the tribal theory is probably the correct one.

[OkToBeTakei]

It would not surprise me in the least if RR used the apparent lack of interest or lack of credence shown by Vyckie and the others mentioned above to her alleged outing as a fraud, to her advantage.

She has always employed that 'you do not have to believe me, I understand' claptrap many, many times to gain sympathy and make her doubters take pause at her reasonableness and doubt their doubts.

I think it safe to surmise that for Vyckie this is more to do with her ire at FJ rather than anything at all to do with the actual issue. She absolutely cares more for her own feelings than any distress RR may have caused by her alleged fraud.

RR is a master of using reasonable doubt and by taking the ridiculous stance she has at NLQ Vyckie has provided RR with the perfect out. Oh look poor me. I thought FJ was my safe place but yet again poor naive fundie me has been hurt and betrayed :( :(

I am slightly heartened though that some are questioning these evil, evil nasty people who are out to discredit me with such zeal. Poor me. Poor me. Poor me.

Sadly their silence and FJ's threads and threads of speculation and findings just may look to the fool who still wishes to believe her, a persecution of a poor maligned, abused victim. (Yeah right.)

Vyckie though just does not give a shit. It really would not surprise me if RR tries that. Not like she has a problem manipulating eh?

[Jen0925]

The ralying around her is odd and i think it creates an air of truth to her story for some people. That is dangerous as well. Logically, if the will not speak against her it makes it seem as if they know her story to be true.

[nerdymama1]

Which is precisely why it's so important to examine the evidence and out her as much as possible. She may not be done if she can milk the situation to her advantage.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Maybe some of these people who dont want to identify themselves, fear their parents finding them, not Gothard/ATI/other fundies. Child abuse is rampant in ATI, and a lot of these people who have left and told their stories have parents who are really controlling and threatening, or used to beat them or something.

I guess a lot of ex fundies, especially ones who have just left, still feel powerless and need to realise that their parents and others they knew are not all powerful and cant do anything to them. Cults are hard to leave cause of all the brainwashing, especially when youve been in it from birth. Fundies have not given their kids the ability to make it in the world-they have a poor education, have been taught first time unquestioning obedience, a fear of outsiders, black and white thinking...

I think the black and white thinking is an issue here, its hard to get rid of that, and a lot of people who were raised fundie but left naturally still group things into completely good and completely evil. Other survivors are good, so anything that goes against them must be bad.

[August]

Libby Anne at Love, Joy, Feminism responds to a suggestion that she remove RR from her links:

:angry-banghead:

Someone then points out that it is highly unlikely that she is going to announce herself as a fraud. Response:

Personally, I've always wondered about her own veracity. But I'm sure that is just me.

She hits none of the troll points. All she does is post essays. The closest to personal drama she's had is having her second child, and that was mentioned in passing. Her growing up/out story is pretty mundane.

[laura oz]

I'm wondering if Ruth will try to post anything else on NLQ. I'm pretty sure she's smart enough to stay away from here, but I wonder if she'll try to press her luck with Vickie, since she's leaving up Ruth's posts. She's probably already moved onto another scam, but I can't help but wonder if she'd do it. Maybe for shiggles, or just a "Why won't people quit harassing me" whine. I'm thinking Vickie is just leaving them up out of pride, and that if the tip hadn't come from FJ that mess would have been taken down asap. So would she allow a new post just to give FJ the bird? That's one complicated, devious, manipulative individual. And that goes for both Ruth and Vickie.