Its Not That Complicated

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I've known a few scoundrels in my time, and while they weren't relationship material, they sure were fun! AS&E should give it a whirl sometime.

I can't believe they used the word scoundrel. Please tell me the word "dastardly" is used somewhere in the book as well.

THIS! :D

[DomWackTroll]

I can't believe they used the word scoundrel. Please tell me the word "dastardly" is used somewhere in the book as well.

And do they twirl their mustaches? Tie damsels to railroad tracks? Beat Justin Turley to a bloody pulp after he exclaims, "I won't have you insulting the Confederacy, sir!" Gosh, I hope so!

[nokidsmom]

TBH, the way Kelly is looking the days (worn out) she might be a bit jealous of their spinsterhood. I'm not convinced marriage is preferable to spinsterhood in this culture.

Oh that is so true. I have said so before, but Kelly Bradrick is a walking example of how fundie girls should be really, really careful for what they wish for. Maybe Anna-Sofia and Elizabeth have taken note, who knows, but most likely the Daddy worship is what's really holding them back.

That these two present themselves as some kind of relationship experts is astounding. By their own fundie standards, they both have failed miserably.

[Anny Nym]

Ahh, yes KELLY BRADRICK!

A walking and suffering example of how ASE´s babbling about

Girls used to have a lot more protection and help through these problems than they do today. Fathers and brothers used to provide screening and kept scoundrels at the right end of a Remington.

IS TOTALly BULLSHIT. It´s probably a good time to remember this specific story to have a good look about what fundies mean by "protection":

Scott Brown on his daughter Kelly and "protecting" her: “In 2003, I took my daughter with me on a mission trip to Romania. On the plane, there was a drunken man flirting with her in a very aggressive way. Unfortunately for him, there were 535 pounds of manhood in our party ready to protect her. Believe me, we were exercising much Christian patience with this man who persisted throughout the entire flight. He did not realize that he was facing deadly force, if he persisted. He actually touched her once and was making bold advances. He even continued the pursuit after the plane landed. I am convinced that, if we had not been with her to protect her, she would have been in serious danger.â€

Where I live, we have a term for such people: a Hätti-wari-täti. It is directed to pompus assholes who do nothing than sit on said ass and open their traps.

[nokidsmom]

Ahh, yes KELLY BRADRICK!

A walking and suffering example of how ASE´s babbling about

IS TOTALly BULLSHIT. It´s probably a good time to remember this specific story to have a good look about what fundies mean by "protection":

Scott Brown on his daughter Kelly and "protecting" her: “In 2003, I took my daughter with me on a mission trip to Romania. On the plane, there was a drunken man flirting with her in a very aggressive way. Unfortunately for him, there were 535 pounds of manhood in our party ready to protect her. Believe me, we were exercising much Christian patience with this man who persisted throughout the entire flight. He did not realize that he was facing deadly force, if he persisted. He actually touched her once and was making bold advances. He even continued the pursuit after the plane landed. I am convinced that, if we had not been with her to protect her, she would have been in serious danger.â€

Where I live, we have a term for such people: a Hätti-wari-täti. It is directed to pompus assholes who do nothing than sit on said ass and open their traps.

Interesting how that little gem about protection was about the manly menz. Though I suspect that in reality the flight crew was handling things or would have if things really got out of hand. Funny they mention using "deadly force" on a plane....um, highly doubt that. Of course, what does one expect from the one who take the so called "manly men" trips?

[chaotic life]

Excuse me? I see NOTHING in that story that implies they actually DID protect her! If there was over 500lb of manly men prepared to protect her, why didn't one of them do the very SIMPLE solution of swapping seats with her and putting her in a location where the drunkard couldn't access her. Problem solved, woman protected AND the poundage of manly men would have done more than simply WATCH while he touched her and pursued her. Given that they merely postulated, exactly how far would the drunk taken it before they finally DID protect her???

My teen daughter has a problem losing boyfriends. It seems all it takes is one of her MANY brothers asking what his intentions are with her and most of them go running for the hills. I've asked the boys to stop it, but it does appear they are being polite when they do this, just that they are watching out for a sister they know IS immature and flighty is enough for the boys to be scared. I can guarantee you that if some drunk man were giving her unwanted attention and making her uncomfortable, first she would stand up for herself. Second, if that failed to work, her brothers would close ranks and remove her, making it very clear that they stood in between her and the drunk. They would not glare and look menacing, things that a drunk would never catch onto, and then write later about how they would have protected her....without having actually protected her.

I think these girls are missing a vital journey from point A to point B. No one will move past the romance novel concept of men unless they experience REAL MEN for themselves. If all you ever know about men is father, brothers and books, then you cannot grasp that even with morning breath, even with the reality that a morning hard-on means he's not fully awake and needs to pee and not ravage you, even when growly and stubbly and just normal HUMAN, men can still be pretty awesome being MEN and not heroes out of a romance novel. You have to actually talk to and be involved with the opposite sex to grasp that they are not characters but people, just like women are.

[browngrl]

I know there are FJ people who have mad computer and sleuthing skills - so I ask them: what are the Botkinettes up to now?

They haven't updated their blog in ages. I don't see them mentioned in other fundie blogs I read. I get a very squicky feeling about their relationship with their father and I wonder if they are depressed. Either way - I hope their internet silence is out of choice and not out of some more ugly reason.

[treemom]

I always get confused when people ask me for relationship advice... I've never had one, why are you asking me?

I might be a virgin, but at least I can drive.

I get confused because while I have been married for almost 16 years, I only know how to live with my husband...not someone else.

[FlorenceHamilton]

Excuse me? I see NOTHING in that story that implies they actually DID protect her! If there was over 500lb of manly men prepared to protect her, why didn't one of them do the very SIMPLE solution of swapping seats with her and putting her in a location where the drunkard couldn't access her. Problem solved, woman protected AND the poundage of manly men would have done more than simply WATCH while he touched her and pursued her. Given that they merely postulated, exactly how far would the drunk taken it before they finally DID protect her???

My teen daughter has a problem losing boyfriends. It seems all it takes is one of her MANY brothers asking what his intentions are with her and most of them go running for the hills. I've asked the boys to stop it, but it does appear they are being polite when they do this, just that they are watching out for a sister they know IS immature and flighty is enough for the boys to be scared. I can guarantee you that if some drunk man were giving her unwanted attention and making her uncomfortable, first she would stand up for herself. Second, if that failed to work, her brothers would close ranks and remove her, making it very clear that they stood in between her and the drunk. They would not glare and look menacing, things that a drunk would never catch onto, and then write later about how they would have protected her....without having actually protected her.

I think these girls are missing a vital journey from point A to point B. No one will move past the romance novel concept of men unless they experience REAL MEN for themselves. If all you ever know about men is father, brothers and books, then you cannot grasp that even with morning breath, even with the reality that a morning hard-on means he's not fully awake and needs to pee and not ravage you, even when growly and stubbly and just normal HUMAN, men can still be pretty awesome being MEN and not heroes out of a romance novel. You have to actually talk to and be involved with the opposite sex to grasp that they are not characters but people, just like women are.

PREACH it!

[Marian the Librarian]

I know there are FJ people who have mad computer and sleuthing skills - so I ask them: what are the Botkinettes up to now?

They haven't updated their blog in ages. I don't see them mentioned in other fundie blogs I read. I get a very squicky feeling about their relationship with their father and I wonder if they are depressed. Either way - I hope their internet silence is out of choice and not out of some more ugly reason.

Not sure I qualify as having mad skillz, but here are a couple of blog posts that include pics from the recent Family Economics Conference:

blog.bryantfamilyfarm.com/2013/05/family-economics-conference.html

mazzoumemories.blogspot.com/2013/05/family-economics-conference-what.html

Scroll down, there are a few shots of the Botkinettes in action. The recently-elusive Servens are also in evidence.

The Botkinettes have gone way underground - my theory is, per Dad's command, as he can't stand the heat of the public (read: FJ!) questioning their lifelong spinsterhood. They may be participating in Dougie P's mega-revisionist-history conference this weekend, so perhaps a couple of good cosplay pics will come out of that. But I wonder if Geoff puts a "no photos" rule into effect whenever they're allowed off the compound.

[browngrl]

Thanks Marian the Librarian.

I'll bet you are right - the web silence is probably due to a command from Daddy Dearest. Father Botkin + the girl Botkins have got a weird little triad going IMO.

[Sobeknofret]

Apparently it *is* that complicated, because I don't see either Botkin woman living out their most precious dream-- marriage and a quiverfull. If they're happy being unmarried and living a different life than they would as married mothers, than good on them, but in that case they need to stop promoting this extra-Biblical BS, and perhaps think how they might better serve the Body of Christ.

[desertvixen]

Ahh, yes KELLY BRADRICK!

A walking and suffering example of how ASE´s babbling about

IS TOTALly BULLSHIT. It´s probably a good time to remember this specific story to have a good look about what fundies mean by "protection":

Scott Brown on his daughter Kelly and "protecting" her: “In 2003, I took my daughter with me on a mission trip to Romania. On the plane, there was a drunken man flirting with her in a very aggressive way. Unfortunately for him, there were 535 pounds of manhood in our party ready to protect her. Believe me, we were exercising much Christian patience with this man who persisted throughout the entire flight. He did not realize that he was facing deadly force, if he persisted. He actually touched her once and was making bold advances. He even continued the pursuit after the plane landed. I am convinced that, if we had not been with her to protect her, she would have been in serious danger.â€

Where I live, we have a term for such people: a Hätti-wari-täti. It is directed to pompus assholes who do nothing than sit on said ass and open their traps.

So, instead of exercising Christian patience, why didn't they do something useful like:

- switch seats with Kelly?

- ask the guy to leave her alone?

- alert the flight crew?

[wtylcf]

Excuse me? I see NOTHING in that story that implies they actually DID protect her! If there was over 500lb of manly men prepared to protect her, why didn't one of them do the very SIMPLE solution of swapping seats with her and putting her in a location where the drunkard couldn't access her. Problem solved, woman protected AND the poundage of manly men would have done more than simply WATCH while he touched her and pursued her. Given that they merely postulated, exactly how far would the drunk taken it before they finally DID protect her???

Preach it! I agree, this story totally enrages me. If they are going to brag about the 535 lbs of masculinity protecting Kelly, why on earth did they do nothing about the situation except say, "durr, if something REALLY BAD had happened, we would have stepped in!" Considering the guy was already drunk, verbally aggressive and actually touched her, any of those would have been reason to seek intervention. Of course, the proper course of intervention would be to take it up with the crew, who is responsible for the safety of everyone on board and should not be tolerating such behaviour. I've seen a drunk guy removed from the plane before take-off by the crew, because he was hitting on all the ladies and making inappropriate comments, but he certainly wasn't touching anyone...yet. It's not very smart to challenge the actions of a drunk guy on a plane, instead of going through an impartial third-party, but I guess no one ever claimed the VF dudes were overburdened with critical thinking skills.

And most of all, Kelly HERSELF should have been able to ask an attendant to deal with the drunk guy so she wasn't being borderline assulted. Instead she probably waited for the men to stand up for her while they did shit-all to help her.

[Sobeknofret]

And most of all, Kelly HERSELF should have been able to ask an attendant to deal with the drunk guy so she wasn't being borderline assulted. Instead she probably waited for the men to stand up for her while they did shit-all to help her.

This is what puzzled me most about the story: why didn't *Kelly* do something herself? If I can handle three drunk and definitely disorderly Irish rugby players on a trans-continental flight, "sturdy" Kelly should be able to handle any problems herself!

[hoipolloi]

The Botkin sisters' failure to marry speaks much louder than any words they write.

Thank you, Marian, for those links. Looks like at least one of the Zes daughters is still unmarried as well and, IIRC, she/they are about the same age as the Botkinettes. Their father, Jim Zes, is a longtime VF leghumper; here's a discussion from told old FJ Yuku board: http://freejinger.yuku.com/topic/4020

[GenerationCedarchip]

THIS.

Even on some fundie forums I've visited through the last few years, there have been comments wondering why AS and E aren't married yet.

Thanks for reading the book and reporting back for us!!

Fundie forums? Oh, do tell! Where would we find these? Most of the ones I remember from my own fundie days have gone dark.

[debrand]

I've known a few scoundrels in my time, and while they weren't relationship material, they sure were fun! AS&E should give it a whirl sometime.

I can't believe they used the word scoundrel. Please tell me the word "dastardly" is used somewhere in the book as well.

They use the word, smashing to describe the cover of their new book. I have only heard smashing in context with wealthy people from the 1920's

[Sobeknofret]

See, I think the Botkin sisters are perfectly happy the way they are. I think they *don't* want to suffer the fate of Melissa Niednagel and Kelly Bradrick. Why should they? They get to travel, write books (of questionable merit, true), engage with the most interesting minds of their particular circle, and do interesting things. Being married would mean an end to all that, and having children would definitely end those activities. They'd become (fundie) Royal brood mares, and the world as they know it would contract to an infinitely smaller place; definitely a smaller place in their world than the one they occupy now. Notice how Kelly Bradrick has pretty much fallen off the fundie/VF royal radar since her marriage and children. At least the Botkin ladies are still being talked about, even if it is only to wonder why they're not married.

[debrand]

Ahh, yes KELLY BRADRICK!

A walking and suffering example of how ASE´s babbling about

IS TOTALly BULLSHIT. It´s probably a good time to remember this specific story to have a good look about what fundies mean by "protection":

Scott Brown on his daughter Kelly and "protecting" her: “In 2003, I took my daughter with me on a mission trip to Romania. On the plane, there was a drunken man flirting with her in a very aggressive way. Unfortunately for him, there were 535 pounds of manhood in our party ready to protect her. Believe me, we were exercising much Christian patience with this man who persisted throughout the entire flight. He did not realize that he was facing deadly force, if he persisted. He actually touched her once and was making bold advances. He even continued the pursuit after the plane landed. I am convinced that, if we had not been with her to protect her, she would have been in serious danger.â€

Where I live, we have a term for such people: a Hätti-wari-täti. It is directed to pompus assholes who do nothing than sit on said ass and open their traps.

Thank you so much for reminding me of that little tidbit! Probably in the next couple days, I will put up a review of the first chapter and I'll remember to include about Kelly Bradrick rolling under a fence.

[bananacat]

This thing about protection is a red herring. Women most frequently need "protection" from the men they already know and are close to. The unspoken horror that fundies don't like to discuss is that a woman being hit, molested, or raped is only bad when it comes from strange men, but perfectly acceptable when it comes from the man who owns her.

[VooDooChild]

This thing about protection is a red herring. Women most frequently need "protection" from the men they already know and are close to. The unspoken horror that fundies don't like to discuss is that a woman being hit, molested, or raped is only bad when it comes from strange men, but perfectly acceptable when it comes from the man who owns her.

That attitude seriously frosts me. Women are just an other; a thing; a possession. :angry-banghead:

[FJismyheadship]

I think Kelly didn't do anything because she was raised that the MEN protect her so she doesn't have to do it herself. She kept expecting them to help her... and then they let her down. I bet she was miserable.

[loulou]

Unfortunately, any fundie forums I used to visit aren't active anymore, or password protected.

My absolute favorite was the Titus2 Moms Board, but they shut it down years ago. The crazy was just unbelievable.

A few years ago, there was a thread (maybe Christian Forums?) with a discussion about the Botkin girls. Somebody was singing the praises of their book So Much More, and others were asking why those girls aren't married yet.

[Miggy]

I've read that story about Kelly before and wondered about the truth of it. That they were on a flight I believe, beyond that ...

Really drunk guys are either not allowed to board or removed pretty quickly. I am picturing a guy who has had a drink but not actually particularly drunk noticing Kelly, who was very pretty, and flirting a bit. Maybe later he walks down the aisle and brushes her as he goes past. Kelly has a meltdown due to her upbringing and Daddy exaggerates the whole thing to make a good story.