Its Not That Complicated

[miffy]

That drunk on plane story is such BS. If a passenger was really being that bad there would have been police waiting to arrest him when the plane landed.

[Peas n carrots]

My dad is far from a fundie and he knows I can take care of myself, but my dad in a million years would not have let a drunk lout touch me, nonetheless harass me during a flight. Or anywhere ...some "manly" protection!

I wonder what the Botkins are doing all day then these days? Are they planning another beauty seminar? Writing a book about spinsterhood? I'm dying to know, as they have A LOT of time on their hands.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I think Kelly didn't do anything because she was raised that the MEN protect her so she doesn't have to do it herself. She kept expecting them to help her... and then they let her down. I bet she was miserable.

The crazy thing about Kelly is that her family were mainstream Christians until her dad drank the kool-aid. I believe she was a young teen at the time. I'm fascinated by her because I can't imagine any teenager doing more than going along to get along, but Kelly absorbed all the bullshit completely.

[debrand]

I'm not very clever so don't expect much from my chapter reviews.

http://asmashingblog.blogspot.com/2013/ ... -your.html

http://asmashingblog.blogspot.com/2013/ ... ction.html

http://asmashingblog.blogspot.com/2013/ ... field.html

http://asmashingblog.blogspot.com/2013/ ... art-2.html

I had to break the first chapter into two parts because it annoyed me so much. Do I have to break up links to my own blog?

[Dinorah]

How can someone remember nostalgically a kind of protection that involved the threat of murder?

[debrand]

How can someone remember nostalgically a kind of protection that involved the threat of murder?

Honestly, I don't know. It is bizarre to me also

I have always thought the appeal of fundamentalism for some women is the idea that they are no longer responsible for their own choices. Yet, there manner of handling problems actually seems to make life more difficult. Why couldn't the daughter just tell the man to leave her alone? If he was that obnoxious, she could have told the flight attendants. By just sitting and not taking responsibility for her own safety, she made life harder for herself.

However, I doubt the story as Scott Brown reported it. Maybe the guy was very friendly and flirted a little but not enough that a flight attendant would have seen a problem if no one complained.

[nokidsmom]

The crazy thing about Kelly is that her family were mainstream Christians until her dad drank the kool-aid. I believe she was a young teen at the time. I'm fascinated by her because I can't imagine any teenager doing more than going along to get along, but Kelly absorbed all the bullshit completely.

OMTS, I didn't know that the family was mainstream until Kelly was a teen. I don't follow the VF crowd that closely as I am so put off by them. Wow, so she experienced some "normal" life before daddy fell down the VF rabbithole. Wonder if she ever thinks about what would have been if that didn't happen? She strikes me as totally miserable in her life now.

[debrand]

OMTS, I didn't know that the family was mainstream until Kelly was a teen. I don't follow the VF crowd that closely as I am so put off by them. Wow, so she experienced some "normal" life before daddy fell down the VF rabbithole. Wonder if she ever thinks about what would have been if that didn't happen? She strikes me as totally miserable in her life now.

Maybe as her daughter gets older, Kelly will want something more for her. I've wondered before if Kelly could escape now.

This will sound horrible but I'm surprised that more men in that movement aren't poisoned by their wives.

[nokidsmom]

Maybe as her daughter gets older, Kelly will want something more for her. I've wondered before if Kelly could escape now.

This will sound horrible but I'm surprised that more men in that movement aren't poisoned by their wives.

Unfortuately Kelly is pretty well stuck with five children under the age of like 5 or 6? And married to a VF hotshot. Her family is steeped in the koolaid so she can't count on their help. She's well and truly trapped now, I'm afraid.

Guess eventually we may see some VF or ATI wife get fed up and take care of the problem, er, husband.

[chaotic life]

Afaik the Titus2 board still exists. It's just on major lockdown to get access. You must buy a Maxwell book, have the original access code, have a non-anonymous email and be carefully screened by Teri to be given access. The other ones I knew of are on similar lockdown these days.

[GenerationCedarchip]

Unfortunately, any fundie forums I used to visit aren't active anymore, or password protected.

My absolute favorite was the Titus2 Moms Board, but they shut it down years ago. The crazy was just unbelievable.

A few years ago, there was a thread (maybe Christian Forums?) with a discussion about the Botkin girls. Somebody was singing the praises of their book So Much More, and others were asking why those girls aren't married yet.

Darn. I used to read at 7x Sunday and I knew of the LAF board and Stacy McDonald's email group via my cousins who are still in fundie(they tried to invite me to join LAF but that was before it got shut down), but that's it. I would actually be curious to read some of these because I probably still know a few people there. Even though I'm not fundie anymore, I do sometimes wonder what happened to folks I knew. Also, wonder sometimes what in the world is going on in those circles because the crazy seems to be concentrating.

[debrand]

facebook.com/notcomplicatedbook

ON the book's webpage there is a review by Michelle Duggar

“My four eldest daughters loved It’s (not that) Complicated! It is one of their favorite resources to recommend to other young ladies. What a breath of fresh air to find a book about boy/girl friendships and how to deal with them in a Christ honoring way! A must read for every Christian young woman!â€

Michelle Duggar

and

This book delves into the ever-perplexing topic of guy/girl relationships. Full of practical biblical principles and personal stories, It’s (Not That) Complicated will challenge and equip you to rise above the social norm. We highly recommend this as must-read for every young lady!â€

The Duggar Girls

According to the Botkin sisters, their parents began discussing modesty and marriage while they were toddlers.(chapter 2)

Mom would talk to us about being sensible about boys. Dad told us there were good boys and bad boys and that he would help us know the difference. Mom talked to us about being wives and mommies someday. Dad would look at picture books with us-our favorite was a collection of Norman Rockwell Post covers-and he would tell us the story in each picture

The interesting thing about reviewing this book is that it actually tells me more about the Botkin family than how girls should interact with boys. It isn't that there is much about their parents in the first two chapters but now and then they drop something that gives unintended insights into their family's world.

I also find it surprisingly heavy reading. It isn't intellectually challenging at all but realizing how their personalities have been destroyed by their dad is depressing.

[nokidsmom]

I also find it surprisingly heavy reading. It isn't intellectually challenging at all but realizing how their personalities have been destroyed by their dad is depressing.

Sounds like these two have just been very, very controlled and stunted from the beginning. Hearing about how Daddy will know the good boys from the bad probably set the stage for the extreme Daddy worship. It's so weird and creepy.

[LucySnowe]

Do I have to break up links to my own blog?

Only if you're at risk of flouncing? :)

[debrand]

Only if you're at risk of flouncing? :)

I've always wanted to flounce!

You're all a bunch of mean sluts and my feelings are deeply hurt and you are all going to hell. I will pray for you. :disgust: Was that a good flounce?

[Marian the Librarian]

I've always wanted to flounce!

You're all a bunch of mean sluts and my feelings are deeply hurt and you are all going to hell. I will pray for you. :disgust: Was that a good flounce?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[emiliawasframed]

Apologies if someone already covered this (I scanned the thread and did not see it), but Katie Botkin has some smart coverage of the book on her blog: http://kbotkin.com/2012/01/05/it-might- ... mplicated/

She's what my late grandmother would call "a firecracker," that Katie Botkin. I like it.

[debrand]

Apologies if someone already covered this (I scanned the thread and did not see it), but Katie Botkin has some smart coverage of the book on her blog: http://kbotkin.com/2012/01/05/it-might- ... mplicated/

She's what my late grandmother would call "a firecracker," that Katie Botkin. I like it.

I like her post very much

[emiliawasframed]

I love that she seems able to balance respect for her cousins as people with logical, evidence-backed argumentation proving why she disagrees with them. That's good writing--the kind I try to teach my students to emulate. If you are to write with integrity, you must treat other writers (even and especially those with whom you disagree) as fellow humans.

[Marian the Librarian]

Apologies if someone already covered this (I scanned the thread and did not see it), but Katie Botkin has some smart coverage of the book on her blog: http://kbotkin.com/2012/01/05/it-might- ... mplicated/

She's what my late grandmother would call "a firecracker," that Katie Botkin. I like it.

I started another thread about this, but it's worth repeating here - Katie Botkin's latest blog post is her perspective on courtship. Well worth a read.

kbotkin.com/2013/07/01/emotionlogic-sexpurity/

[debrand]

I didn't know if I should revive a dying thread or start a new one. The Botkin book has gotten worse. Really, these two sisters must view human beings as walking genitalia because they categorize human abilities and personalities based on whether you have a penis or vagina. It took me two posts to cover chapter two because I had to walk away from the book

They say that all the biblical heroines, including Jael, were followers of men. By that criteria, all the men in the bible were followers of men too.

Every woman's life is built around men and their leadership in some way. Girls who run away from fathers usually end up working for males bosses; women who refuse to commit to a man in marriage are frequently tossed around from boyfriend to boyfriend; and feminists who build their identities around not needing men still define their lives and achievements in reference to men: earning as much as a man or doing any job a man can do.

and

It means as a daughter of Eve that you are a helper to man by nature, not by circumstances and not by choice

and

Because of how God created the relationship between men and women, we have only two ways of relating to men. As we learned from Eve, not helping them in any way is not an option, and helping in a neutral direction is (physically and metaphysically) impossible.....What we see in Scripture, in history and around us every day is that women only help men in one of two directions: toward God or away from Him

and

You can be a source of strength and godly help to each of them, not by stepping over boundaries , or inserting yourself too aggressively into their lives, but by how well-as far as their life and actions do involve you-you try to keep them on the path, in your every look, comment, response, gesture, clothing choice and conversation

Chapter three

A twenty year old approaches them and informs them that because of their lecture, she just realized that boys are people too. Um....what?

The girl wasn't being dumb; she was being honest. She saw past the 'duh' factor of the statement, and realized we were challenging the way she and most girls subliminally think about the other sex

and

We want to believe that they are here to complete our personal fairy tale, but the truth is this: Scripture says that woman was created for the man, not the other way around. They can't be understood in reference to us-in fact, its more like we have to be understood in reference to them. Because our place in relation to them is not at the center of their universe, but at their sides helping them with what we were both brought into this universe for: work and domination.

Think about that last statement. Women were made for men but men weren't made for women. Women's lives are defined by men. Humans are here to dominate.

I'll put more quotes up as I come across them but this book makes the Botkins seem even worse than they did before.

By the way,

God created men to have a dominion-focus, not a woman-focus, and a failure to understand this can turn our fairy tale romance into a tragedy

Men don't need women that is why women have to watch every single thing that they do because we aren't that important to men anyway. :cray-cray:

[Sobeknofret]

What a terribly sad worldview. I can't even imagine the degradation that it takes to produce that kind of view of your gender.

[debrand]

What a terribly sad worldview. I can't even imagine the degradation that it takes to produce that kind of view of your gender.

There is also no way for the young woman to ever be good enough. It is a self defeating world view. Men need women to protect them from every stray thought, but men are the leaders who do not need women so women need to align their world to fit men but only when men let women into their world. :evil-eye: If you are going to believe crazy things at least be consistent in your craziness.

[Knight of Ni]

I found this forum the other day: fundamentalforums.org

I haven't had time to search through it but it seems to be a mix of fundamental Christians to more liberal Christians. It could make for some interesting reading. I found it by searching for information about Hyles-Anderson College. They have a whole forum about fundie colleges throughout the US. There I saw one poster say that her time at Pensacola Christian College did her a lot of good.

Enjoy!

[Olive Plant]

Men don't need women that is why women have to watch every single thing that they do because we aren't that important to men anyway. :cray-cray:

Yes! So true! Because I am Only A Woman, I am doomed to work for men (never mind that many of my bosses were female) and get "tossed" from boyfriend to boyfriend willy-nilly. I never choose to date anyone, I am tossed like a rag doll from one man to another and I can only nod along because women are phsycially unable to do anything but bend to male dominion. I have no choice! No thought! No power of my own! Only subservience! Anything else is rebellion that will fail because I am naturally subservient! I have a vagina rather than a penis! The LORD has made vaginas to be flexible and accomidating to the penis! As a feminist, I base my life around proving that I am as good as a man! Life is 100% competition because I'm a feminist! I never try to work together with any other people, I only try to prove that I can do shit by myself! Obviously this unnatural state is not working because I probably have more wealth (per capita, anyway) than the Botkin family, which I created on my own initative and by working for my heathen female boss, and I am happy and fulfilled. And my heathen unmarried partner is loving and comitted to me and we're planning a kick-ass future and family together and he spends hours giving me mind-blowing orgasms and making me feel like a princess, but who knows, y'all, he's probably just gonna toss me to a friend one of these days, and I'll be forced by my inherent weakness to go to the friend!