Can Christians Be Gay? Convo (Splitting from Intro Thread)

[debrand]

You have to take into account the Roman views on sexuality in order to understand Paul. For Romans, being the penetrator was what was important to the man. Sex was based on class. Lower class men were penetrated by their superiors. Slaves, male and female, could be raped and men had available to them, prostitutes of both sex. Men were expected to be moderate in their sexual behavior but there was no limits on which sex they could have sex with.

Considering what went on in Roman society, Paul was not very clear in his proclamations against homosexuals. Was he against monogamous gay unions or just against homosexual prostitution or slave rape?

[sisof9]

I am sorry you feel that way Valsa. I don't think that just because my views differ from most means I shouldn't answer questions when asked, and just because my views haven't changed since the last time we had this discussion doesn't mean I am trying to piss people off.

I don't view myself as a fundie, but I know that a lot on here would, so I just take the title and don't argue. :)

[formergothardite]

FloraPaste - just so you know, at least on my comp - your quote box comes up empty.

That would be because Jesus said a lot of things, but didn't really appear to care if people were gay. Jesus summed up the way to heaven as "Love the Lord with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself." So as long as gay people are doing those things you really have no cause to question their salvation.

[sisof9]

Debrand - I have wondered that same thing many times. If a gay/lesbian couple are monogamous are they actually wrong or is it "sleeping around" that is wrong... It's something I have been working through for a couple of years.

My MIL cheated on my FIL with a woman, Hubby's parents are divorced, his mom is remarried to that same woman - I do wonder sometimes is the whole thing wrong or just the fact that she cheated on her husband.

For right now I have to stick with what I think is true, but it's something I am trying to sort through right now. :)

[Witsec1]

FloraPaste - just so you know, at least on my comp - your quote box comes up empty.

:clap: :lol:

[sisof9]

Former - Well, I have to take the Bible as a whole not just "The words printed in red..." But, I know what you mean :)

Flora - Sorry I didn't get it. *laugh* I am on my first period in 92 days and a little out of it. ;)

[FundiesInMyFamily]

One of the things that drives me CRAZY about this debate is that according to Christianity, God is all knowing, all seeing, all powerful, and infalible. His ways are higher than ours and we aren't to question them, right? According to some, God is NEVER wrong.

I am a believer in 'born this way"... you like/love/are sexually attracted to who you are attracted to and that's that. Its biology. So if a man is born being sexually attracted to men (easily identified by who gives him a massive woodie), then "god" made him that way and if "god's" ways are infalible then you can't question it and gay is gay, peirod.

For me personally, I'm hetero, but extremely attracted to women... I have no desire to sleep with one or date one, but looking at them gets me off more visually than anything else. Give me a playboy for an hour and woohoo lol.... there are biological signs of my arousal (won't get graphic here) when I see woman or watch woman only porn, so its a biological response. Its invoulentary, my body just reacts that way. I was born like this. If I believed in God, I would then presume that God wanted me to be this way.

Its a little early so I hope all that made sense lol !!

Going to Pridefest in Denver this weekend and can't wait!!!!!!

[Black Aliss]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that a person can be gay (and out) and also be a Republican. Of course you can be Christian and gay. You just can't be Christian if you're a closeted, homophobic gay, even if you identify as Christian. Sorry about that. A good rule of thumb from Anne Lamott is that "you can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."

[valsa]

I am sorry you feel that way Valsa. I don't think that just because my views differ from most means I shouldn't answer questions when asked, and just because my views haven't changed since the last time we had this discussion doesn't mean I am trying to piss people off.

I'm not talking about your views not changing. I understand that many, not just yourself, are too deficient to change their hook-line-and-sinker swallowed views. I know thinking for yourself is probably very scary.

I'm talking about the fact you used the same "Bisexuality means you're selfish and want to have relationships with people of the same gender at the same time" crap definition in that other thread as well as here, even though you've already been told that's not at all what bisexuality is.

If you can’t even get a simple definition correct, maybe it’s a good thing you just follow whatever your preacher tells you about the Bible.

[sisof9]

TOTALLY OT - Just noticed now I am "blanket trained" I wonder if that is like newspaper trained, so I can learn to only crap in certain places and not all over the board. *halo* (I am very familiar with blanket training, I just laughed when I saw it in the context of thinking of the "Don't poop on the carpet" talk :)

[formergothardite]

Former - Well, I have to take the Bible as a whole not just "The words printed in red..." But, I know what you mean :)

Flora - Sorry I didn't get it. *laugh* I am on my first period in 92 days and a little out of it. ;)

So you take the Bible as a whole except for the verses that say if you have two outfits you should give one away then you decide that those verses don't have to be taken literal and you can kind of just skip over them? It would make more sense to not take the verses about homosexuality as literal since there aren't many of them and it isn't clear exactly what is meant. While the verse about having two tunics is pretty darn clear. How do you pick and choose what is to be taken literally and what isn't?

[sisof9]

See Valsa, the thing about your responses to stuff is that... you're rude.

I have never once said that just because you guys believes things I think are wacky, weird, or untrue that you are deficient or made fun of you. I think for myself all of the time. I am here saying I am doubting a lot of the things I have been told were true my whole life, so to me that translates to "trying to decide for myself". And, if I decide for myself that everything I have ever been taught is true you still wouldn't respect my views - or even me as a person for having them - because you disagree.

I am sorry about the "bi" thing, I honestly was not trying to indicate that all bi-sexual people are sleeping around. I can only speak for the 2 or 3 people I know who identify that way and their constant struggle was that they didn't think it was fair that their husband (a female friend of mine) and their boyfriend (a male friend of mine) expected them to be faithful. I was saying that if you identify Bi I think it is "right" to pick a "side" and stick with it. I am sorry if that makes me stupid or a bigot or whatever else you want to throw at me.

[sisof9]

Former - If you have two shirts and your friend comes to you shirtless give him one. That sounds pretty good and biblical to me. I never said it wasn't. ALL I SAID was that it doesn't mean only own one shirt.

AND, I said I am not convinced the homosexuality verses mean what a lot of the conservative crowd says they mean. I am trying to figure it out.

[formergothardite]

Also, are you saying that Jesus made a mistake by not including other things in the list of how to get to heaven? Because that is the only implication that can come from you saying "Well if you do those two things but are still gay I still am going to question your salvation".

[FundiesInMyFamily]

I was saying that if you identify Bi I think it is "right" to pick a "side" and stick with it. I am sorry if that makes me stupid or a bigot or whatever else you want to throw at me.

You think it's "right" to "pick a side" ??? What the fuck is that? In my post I just said that I am mostly hetero but I'm really attracted to women and love looking at them... I love girl on girl porn and often go girl watching with my full on bi swinger sister. I DON'T WANT TO PICK A SIDE. Your "god" made me this way... I'm attracted to girls, peirod. I have relationships with men, peirod. I don't have to pick anything, I enjoy both. I like both vanilla and chocolate ice cream.

[sisof9]

No, I don't think Jesus forgot anything. :)

[sisof9]

I don't mean pick a side like you are not attracted to both genders.

I am sorry that no matter what I say it comes out the wrong way.

Bottom line - be faithful to whatever you and your partner have defined as faithfulness. If your partner is not okay with you lookin at porn don't, if your partner is fine with an open relationship great....whether you are straight gay bi or like to fuck dogs don't be a cheater :)

[Guest Anonymous]

Former - Well, I have to take the Bible as a whole not just "The words printed in red..." But, I know what you mean :)

I see what you're saying. I assume, in that case, that you follow *all* of Levitical law? Since homosexual acts are listed as wrong right there in Leviticus along with not wearing clothing that is made of blended fibers and all of the dietary laws, I guess you never wear a nice poly cotton blend or eat a shrimp. Because otherwise, you would be a great big hypocrite. (And I hope your husband doesn't harm the corners of his beard, that's a no no as well.) And does your church have someone checking to make sure that no testicular cancer survivors are coming in? Because if you don't have both testicles, you may never join the assembly of the Lord.

And if you want to excuse the food stuff with that dream that Peter had, you're still not off the hook for your clothing and the other things. So, do you follow all Levitical laws and worry about the salvation of those who do not? Or is it only the gays that you have an issue with?

[sisof9]

Lissar - I ask those questions ALL OF THE TIME! If we are going to say XYZ is wrong then ABC has got to be wrong too (and D and H and M and T....) - It's something I have asked my whole life.

I personally do not have a problem with gay people, and I am trying to figure it all out. :)

[LynnKaboom]

Bottom line - be faithful to whatever you and your partner have defined as faithfulness.

So I can't really comment on the bisexuality thing, because I am not, have never been, and probably never will be attracted to women, although I will say that bisexual doesn't equal cheater. But sisof9 does have a point here- I've seen more relationships destroyed because of unfaithfulness than I care to remember.

[Witsec1]

Lissar - I ask those questions ALL OF THE TIME! If we are going to say XYZ is wrong then ABC has got to be wrong too (and D and H and M and T....) - It's something I have asked my whole life.

I personally do not have a problem with gay people, and I am trying to figure it all out. :)

So

- you concede that you see no reason to follow the OT law about men having sex with men if you're skipping the mixed fibers and corners of beard stuff

- you concede that Jesus had nothing to say about heterosexuality as a requirement for salvation

-you concede (I think) that there are other things that the NT epistles seem to forbid/command, that you would not question someone's salvation over.

Yet you seem unwilling to state that an openly gay person in a same-sex relationship can be a Christian. Have I got that right?

Because, honestly, if I have understood you correctly, it does sound like you have a problem with gay people

[brashchick]

I have to say, I vehemently disagree with sisof9 about everything she has written on homosexuality. But I don't see anything trollish about her behavior. I don't remember her from the other board, so I can only speak to what she has said here, but I don't think having views that are highly objectionable is being a troll.

I really took sisof9' posts to indicate that she is doing the work of figuring out what she believee. This is a growth proces. Sisof9, there can be heated arguments on this board, but I hope you stay. :gay-imgay:

[Witsec1]

I really took sisof9' posts to indicate that she is doing the work of figuring out what she believee. This is a growth proces. Sisof9, there can be heated arguments on this board, but I hope you stay. :gay-imgay:

I agree! Just trying to help with the figuring out process ;)

[deelaem]

I don't know how to indentify myself. All my life, I have noticed women and felt attracted to them. Sometimes, I even fantasize about them. But I've never acted on those fantasies.

After I turned forty, I allowed myself to acknowledge that I was bisexual-or at least, not quite straight. My husband said that he wasn't surprised because I always point out good looking women to him.

Funny story. My brother's new, much younger, very pretty girlfriend totally defrauded me by bending over repeatedly in front of me and accidentally exposing her boobs. :oops:

Debra, I've struggled with this one myself. I would find women's bodies attractive, yet when I envisioned having sex with a woman, it didn't do anything for me. Once I became a radical feminist, I figured out what it was all about. All my life,the media and society had defined "sexy" as looking like a Playboy bunny. Women's bodies are so objectified as being for sex only, that I was conditioned to have a sexual response to seeing a woman who was being presented in that way. Once I took the time to see the woman as a full human being, that response has mellowed quite a bit. Feminism is a process, after all.

But I now know that I'm straight. That's who I am, even though the older I get and the more I realize what men are all about, I wish I was a lesbian. But I'm not. So now I'm just glad menopause has has taken the hormone-driven part out of my sexuality.

On a lighter note, if I wasn't menopausal, I might just hit on valsa, because her brain is hella sexy! :character-velma:

[formergothardite]

No, I don't think Jesus forgot anything. :)

So as long as a gay person loves the Lord with all of their heart and loves their neighbor as theirselves you aren't going to question their salvation? Because from what I took from your other posts it didn't matter if a person did those two things all the time, as long as they were gay you were going to wonder if they were really a Christian.