Can Christians Be Gay? Convo (Splitting from Intro Thread)

[valsa]

I have never once said that just because you guys believes things I think are wacky, weird, or untrue that you are deficient or made fun of you. I think for myself all of the time. I am here saying I am doubting a lot of the things I have been told were true my whole life, so to me that translates to "trying to decide for myself". And, if I decide for myself that everything I have ever been taught is true you still wouldn't respect my views - or even me as a person for having them - because you disagree.

I don't lack respect for you or think you're deficient because I disagree with you. There are plenty of people who I disagree with that I still respect. I think you're proud of being something vile and I think you're intellectually lazy (a far worse "sin" than what you've said here about homosexuality)

Your entire spiel here and in previous threads has basically boiled down to "I think X but my preacher tells me the Bible says Y, so I'm just going to have to cover my ears like a child to common sense and go with Y"

I am sorry about the "bi" thing, I honestly was not trying to indicate that all bi-sexual people are sleeping around.

I might be willing to believe you if you hadn't made that "mistake" twice, after being corrected the first time. I get it, your MIL cheated on her husband by fucking a woman and now you have a grudge against bisexuals. It has nothing to do with anything but your own ignorance and bias.

[nimerha]

brashchick - eh, I don't see it. I'll give her a pass if she's under twenty, but that's about it.

Jeez, listen to her, over and over and over: oh, I don't have a problem with gay people! They're just, you know, doing it wrong. And it it's not because of the homo, it's because of the promiscuity and unfaithfulness. Oh, I am not saying that queer means promiscuous! Except when I am. Just a little. Anyway! But I don't have a problem with them! And yeah, okay, maybe it's not totally wrong but kinda fuzzy wrong? Um, I know gay people, except, wait, no, I don't, but anyway, you have these, kinda, arguments, but I won't address or respond to them because I am Figuring It Out, blah blah blah blah blah...

It's juvenile, tiring, stupid, and offensive. At the end of the day, I am a person. For this blubbery fool, it's a kinda cool thing to go online and "discuss" (except not really discuss because she's not into having her opinions changed... whatever that means, a discussion it certainly isn't); for me, it's my civil rights, my family, my life. I don't want to educate and change people's minds, and I am disgusted, tired and saddened that I have to, that it's "popular opinion" that will dictate what rights I am admitted, how I can or cannot live.

And all I am getting here is a little fundie who is getting such a kick out of what a good sport she is, how open she is, how she can engage even with people who are against her; who can rise about those that are rude to her or win the grudging respect of others. Privileged little fool.

[Guest Anonymous]

This is very long, but worth reading through, if one happens to be interested in the subject.

What the Bible Says - And Doesn't Say - About Homosexuality

by Rev. Mel White

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homose ... -christian

LIKE YOU, I TAKE THE BIBLE SERIOUSLY!

Many good people build their case against homosexuality almost entirely on the Bible. These folks value Scripture, and are serious about seeking its guidance in their lives. Unfortunately, many of them have never really studied what the Bible does and doesn't say about homosexuality.

We gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Christians take the Bible seriously, too. Personally, I've spent more than 50 years reading, studying, memorizing, preaching, and teaching from the sacred texts. I earned my master's and doctoral degrees at a conservative biblical seminary to better equip myself to "rightly divide the word of truth." I learned Hebrew and Greek to gain a better understanding of the original words of the biblical texts. I studied the lives and times of the biblical authors to help me know what they were saying in their day so I could better apply it to my own.

I'm convinced the Bible has a powerful message for gay and lesbian Christians -- as well as straight Christians. But it's not the message of condemnation we so often hear.

I'm not expecting you to take my word for it, though. I ask only that you'd consider what my research has taught me about the passages used by some people to condemn God's gay and lesbian children. Then decide for yourself...

[failsafe]

Debra, I've struggled with this one myself. I would find women's bodies attractive, yet when I envisioned having sex with a woman, it didn't do anything for me. Once I became a radical feminist, I figured out what it was all about. All my life,the media and society had defined "sexy" as looking like a Playboy bunny. Women's bodies are so objectified as being for sex only, that I was conditioned to have a sexual response to seeing a woman who was being presented in that way. Once I took the time to see the woman as a full human being, that response has mellowed quite a bit. Feminism is a process, after all.

I think that's a lot of it. I find women's bodies attractive as well, but don't feel anything if I think of being in a serious relationship with a woman. Much of it (for me) seems to be a response to standard social conditioning - a woman's body is an object of lust, and is presented that way whether you are a man or a woman. It is not just the male gaze but a collective societal gaze upon women. That's not to say that men are not attractive - they are - but I think my own response to women as being attractive (but my not wanting to *do* anything necessarily with that attraction) was an example of the extent to which we are conditioned to view women's bodies as a "thing" that is supposed to get us turned on. I imagine my own experience with finding women's bodies attractive is substantively different than a lesbian woman's would be.

If you are presented with image after image that tells you "this is what sexy is" "this is what beautiful looks like" then yeah, you start to internalize those messages and not only turn them on yourself (I need to do x, y and z to be sexy) but also, it stands to reason, you begin to find that very thing sexy. Does that mean you necessarily want to have sex with it? Probably not. But I don't think finding women's bodies sexy is at all an unusual experience among (mostly) straight women.

[valsa]

On a lighter note, if I wasn't menopausal, I might just hit on valsa, because her brain is hella sexy! :character-velma:

*blush* And you just had to go with my favorite Scooby Doo-er, didn't you? You big flirt

[Lainey]

Hmmm, deelaem and failsafe bring up an interesting point. Maybe that's why I'm never attracted to my friends--because I see them as people and not bodies. Wow, that sounds like a terrible thing to say, but I hope you know what I mean.

For me, although I'm attracted to women's looks, girl-on-girl porn bores me to tears.

[sisof9]

Nimreha actually put my views out there kinda well. *laugh* I know what the Bible seems to say and it doesn't match up with how I feel, and on top of that most of the evidence people have against homosexuality seems to come from the OT, and there are a lot of things we don't follow from the OT, so I don't understand why homosexuality (or even hetero sex outside of marriage) is still considered wrong.

AND YET... I can't just say "Well, this doesn't make sense to me so I am going to change my entire belief system." it takes time and consideration. And to be honest Christianity has viewed homosexuality as sinful for thousands of years - not all Christians, but Christianity as a whole, and Tradition/tradition is a pretty big motivator for me in stuff like this.

I probably won't reply on here a lot more unless asked a direct question. I am sorry I riled people up. I honestly was just trying to say "here is what I believe about various things - what do you believe?" I have no intention of trying to jump on anyone else's beliefs. :)

[lexiloumarie]

I'm just the opposite. I'm sexually attracted to both genders but only have deep romantic love feelings for womenfolk. Weirdly enough, I'm only sexually attracted to men when I'm ovulating.

I interchangably identify as lesbian and bisexual (lesbian-leaning bisexual, if I feel like explaining what the hell that is)

You are me. Exactly. :banana-rainbow:

[nimerha]

sisof9 - so you're basically admitting that you're not even willing to study your own religious text to find a religious basis for those beliefs you're supposed to be forming? Neither are you going to search for answers outside bible, in your life experiences? And you're not looking to engage in a real debate with us, either? Then why are you still here wasting everyone's time?

This isn't cute, charming or honest. You're only coming across as evasive and playing dumb in other to play your "little fundie taking on the big bad FJ" game. You seem to have noticed my comment - read it again, then, and a couple more times until you notice what I was saying. You're not a unique snowflake and a special specimen, the likes of which we have never seen before. You're offering nothing, only perpetuating behaviour that's already been called out as rude, foolish and offensive.

I'm done here.

[formergothardite]

Nimreha actually put my views out there kinda well. *laugh* I know what the Bible seems to say and it doesn't match up with how I feel, and on top of that most of the evidence people have against homosexuality seems to come from the OT, and there are a lot of things we don't follow from the OT, so I don't understand why homosexuality (or even hetero sex outside of marriage) is still considered wrong.

AND YET... I can't just say "Well, this doesn't make sense to me so I am going to change my entire belief system." it takes time and consideration. And to be honest Christianity has viewed homosexuality as sinful for thousands of years - not all Christians, but Christianity as a whole, and Tradition/tradition is a pretty big motivator for me in stuff like this.

I probably won't reply on here a lot more unless asked a direct question. I am sorry I riled people up. I honestly was just trying to say "here is what I believe about various things - what do you believe?" I have no intention of trying to jump on anyone else's beliefs. :)

1.So screw what the Bible really says, what matters most to you is what men have been saying for a long time. That makes a lot of sense. People used the Bible to justify slavery for a long time too, it didn't mean it was right.

2. Except you want to tell gay people that you really have to ponder whether or not they are a Christian based, by your own admission, on the traditions of men.

[treemom]

This is very long, but worth reading through, if one happens to be interested in the subject.

What the Bible Says - And Doesn't Say - About Homosexuality

by Rev. Mel White

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homose ... -christian

\

I heart Mel white

[Rosa]

I think for most people church culture & tradition trumps what the Bible says. I mean, look at the whole "it was grape juice at the wedding at Cana!" thing - that's all about church culture of being anti-alcohol, and not at all about what the Bible says.

It can really be hard to figure out what you perceive to be true just because you've heard it over and over and then "seen it" in the real world because of selection bias. And relying on your own feelings doesn't always help, because a lot of what we feel about our culture is just based on familiarity or nostalgia.

Every Christian draws the line somewhere, in regards to the text - we have an entire gay fundy congregation here, who started their own church because the other gay-accepting churches were too scripturally liberal for their taste. We also have a number of openly ally Catholic congregations who manage to appease the hierarchy and support queer members & clergy while not getting kicked out of the church, and one that goes ahead and considers itself Independent Catholic because they wouldn't walk that line.

[Kaylee]

AND YET... I can't just say "Well, this doesn't make sense to me so I am going to change my entire belief system." it takes time and consideration. And to be honest Christianity has viewed homosexuality as sinful for thousands of years - not all Christians, but Christianity as a whole, and Tradition/tradition is a pretty big motivator for me in stuff like this.

I think I've been where you're coming from. One thing that really helps is to look at where the tradition came from. Not everything that was upheld as church tradition was because it was what Jesus or scripture said. You need to remember that even if God wrote the Bible, it was left to imperfect men to interpret it and most tradition and extra rules and views were added by pretty much everyone who tried to read into it.

Some of the traditions that the church upheld for years, then (some or many) stopped following or decided were wrong, include priestly celibacy (except for most Catholics), bans on interracial marriage, persecuting the Jews, women not being allowed to speak or teach and/or being require to cover their heads, and believing the sun orbited the earth.

I'm sure there are better examples that I missed, but what I'm saying is that these were cultural things and it did not destroy the church or the gospel when churches started marrying blacks and whites, loving Jewish people, or letting women minister or speak in the sanctuary, and it's not going to happen if/when the church starts accepting gay people as fellow Christians who may or may not struggle with their sexuality just the same as many straight people.

btw, it took me a long time to reconcile "God made gay people the way they are" with "but the Bible says homosexuality is a sin". What finally made it click for me was studying the origins of the words used and the context of the passages - the "anti-gay" scriptures all refer to homosexuality as a part of pagan worship or in the OT as a mark of other cultures, except for one set found along with the rules prescribing waiting periods after menstruation as well (ie, insuring that the Israelites would be most fertile when they needed to build their numbers for survival). Jesus never spoke about it, and it's only really addressed at all among lists of other things, in contexts that are more suggestive or pagan worship than relationships. In short, just being gay or even being gay and having sex is not the sin - it is doing so as part of a non-Christian or non-Jewish worship ritual.

[Guest Anonymous]

AND YET... I can't just say "Well, this doesn't make sense to me so I am going to change my entire belief system." it takes time and consideration. And to be honest Christianity has viewed homosexuality as sinful for thousands of years - not all Christians, but Christianity as a whole, and Tradition/tradition is a pretty big motivator for me in stuff like this.

Tradition on its own (i.e. we've always done it that way!) is a stupid ass reason to uphold something. Catholics and Protestants would still be murdering one another in state sanctioned burnings at the stake if we all used that measure. Modern medical treatment? No thanks dude! Bring on the leeches and the bleeding basin.

[Witsec1]

AND YET... I can't just say "Well, this doesn't make sense to me so I am going to change my entire belief system." it takes time and consideration. And to be honest Christianity has viewed homosexuality as sinful for thousands of years - not all Christians, but Christianity as a whole, and Tradition/tradition is a pretty big motivator for me in stuff like this.

Also courage. The question would merely be academic IF gay kids weren't being bullied, and in some cases, psychologically and physically tortured, in the name of Christ. Real people are being harmed right now because well-meaning people like yourself aren't willing to seriously question their beliefs.

That's why people get um, a little upset with you and might even not have much consideration for your feelings sometimes.

[antifundie]

btw, it took me a long time to reconcile "God made gay people the way they are" with "but the Bible says homosexuality is a sin". What finally made it click for me was studying the origins of the words used and the context of the passages - the "anti-gay" scriptures all refer to homosexuality as a part of pagan worship or in the OT as a mark of other cultures, except for one set found along with the rules prescribing waiting periods after menstruation as well (ie, insuring that the Israelites would be most fertile when they needed to build their numbers for survival). Jesus never spoke about it, and it's only really addressed at all among lists of other things, in contexts that are more suggestive or pagan worship than relationships. In short, just being gay or even being gay and having sex is not the sin - it is doing so as part of a non-Christian or non-Jewish worship ritual.

Raine, I love that you posted this! I've been thinking a lot lately about what the Bible ACTUALLY says vs. what I've been told it says, in terms of lots of issues, one of them being homosexuality. Is there somewhere that I could read more about this? While I'm not one to talk a lot in public about my religious views, it would be awesome to have this info in case anybody (namely my FIL) asked me.

In full disclosure--I don't know what the Bible says about this, but I believe that God made us as we are (Gay, Straight, Bi, whatever), and that He (She?) loves us no matter our genitals or sexual relationships, etc. I plan to ask Him/Her about this when I get to heaven. S/He knows I have a list of questions, haha.

As far as Tradition, (big T) I'm interested in the "Brother-making" ceremony that was (apparently) practiced by the early-ish (10th-16thc) Orthodox church. According to Wikipedia (I know, I know) there is a lot of debate about the purpose of this ceremony, and whether or not it was viewed as a marriage. However, what I find interesting is that the Orthodox church at that time recognized that there could be family relationships that were recognized between two men, who were unrelated. Whether or that included a recognition that there would be sexual relations between the two I don't know.

Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelphopoiesis

A review of the book that talks about this issue:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/bosrev-reynolds.html

[tonamieaimee]

You are in luck! Because I am a slutty bisexual unicorn, I will totally have sexytimes with you. There will be orgasms and GLITTER! /snerk.

Excellent! I've for cupcake-shaped confetti, too! PAR-TAY.

[dcmhejbl62]

I agree. My views on homosexuality have changed drastically from when I was younger so I hold out hope that other people's views can change also.

Mine have changed in the last few years. I commend Sisof9 for at least questioning what she has been taught, instead of blindly following it, especially when some of those things so clearly marginalize others, which was so the opposite of how Jesus lived.

Funny he never commented on homosexuality, isn't it? Must not have been that big of a deal to him ;)

[ElphabaGalinda]

I just wanted to say that I was one of those people in highschool who would say i'm a lesbian one day, and bisexual the next. But it was the boys who were the experiment, and they were the one I was faking it with. I was always a lesbian, even when I said I wasn't, I was just afraid. So it works the other way too.

Also, I think a more difficult question is if someone can be Jewish and gay. I am both those things, so I say yes. But all those things against homosexuality? Mostly the old testament, which Christians don't put as much importance is. I mean, for a Christian, if homosexuality is wrong, wouldn't shrimp, or mixing meat and dairy also be wrong? But then there's lots of Jewish people who follow those old testament food laws, and all the other ones, even the not mixing fibres or triming beards thing. So that's a bit more difficult to reconcile. But I did it :D I'm just not going to be Orthadox.

P.S. I really want to use these :gay-color: :gay-gay: :gay-imgay: :gay-rainbow:

[sisof9]

Rosa and Raine - y'all can be my heroes today. *laugh* Thanks!!

I am sorry that to some I am coming across as trying to be cute or take on the big bad FJers or some other shit. I'm not trying to be cute or ditzy or obtuse.

And, I don't recall saying I don't believe The Bible or that I am not willing to search The Bible, but if I did sorry - mispoke. I think my main struggle in ANY belief I have is that I see the Bible through the lens of interpretation. What I was taught my whole life The Bible means when it says certain things might not be what The Bible actually means.

Take the "most well known" verse John 3:16 (Plus excuse the mixed translations I learned this verse in like 4 different versions :)) - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son so that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." As a kid/teen it was super clear - this verse means that Anyone who "prays the sinner's prayer" can go to heaven, then as I got further and further into reformed theology, then it didn't mean The World and it didn't mean Whoever, it meant "If God elected you before the creation of the world then He died on the cross for you and when He softens your heart and you believe you will be saved", then as I started looking around at the world and seeing a lot of stuff I never saw or never thought of and started trying to reconcile it with who I have always believed God to be I started to wonder "What does World mean? Does it mean universal salvation for everyone? Is there no hell? What does through Christ mean? Like His blood was necessary, but you don't have to actually know the name of Jesus to be saved? Waht about babies? What about mentally retarded people? What about tribes in Africa where no one has every preached The Gospel?" And all of the sudden everything isn't clear anymore. I can see what the Bible SAYS, but be SO unsure about what it MEANS!

[treemom]

I simply do not understand this obsession from anyone in feeling like they have to believe the bible is inerrant.

I have never seen any proof that the Bible was even written by those who were supposedly divinely inspired.

[Effie]

I think that when the Bible talks about that you should not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, it is more based on the infidelity problem - to not seek sexual satisfaction outside your relationship.

I have been in arguments with Christian homophobes who have claimed that a homosexual can’t be a true Christian. -> Who is a true Christian? Who decides? And why are some “Christians†so eager to point out what’s wrong with other people? It’s like they feel they are competing for God’s favour and love, and that’s why they feel the need to define Christians as “true†and “false†Christians.

[Guest Anonymous]

No one has been able to effectively show me that homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible. Even if it is (and it's not mine or any other person on this earth's decision whether it is or not) why can a Christian not be gay, but they can be a liar or shave their beards or eat pork or envy or not always listen to their parents?

I'm straight, but I have Christian friends and family who are not. I was raised to believe that homosexuality is not a choice.

[Effie]

Funny reading about not taking the Bible too literal: http://www.radikalen.com/02869/en-gud-som-vill-se-dig-brinna-i-evighet/ (It's written in English further down).

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[LilMissMetaphor]

This thread has an identity disorder: the title suggests it's discussing whether it's possible to be a gay Christian (and a few people have touched on that), but it's also trying to get sisof9 to prove/defend her personal set of beliefs regarding sexuality. I think they probably deserve separate threads.

It's a bit unfortunate that anyone who sticks their neck out around here by admitting to some fundie beliefs gets immediately clobbered with the "Prove it! And don't quote the Bible because the Bible contradicts itself!" meme. That's just as intellectually lazy as "I believe because my pastor told me so".