Can Christians Be Gay? Convo (Splitting from Intro Thread)

[nimerha]

Huh, I don't know, can they? I'll ask my girlfriend. She seems to be handling it well enough for the past 30+ years, but who knows; it's a rainbow coloured, unicorn shaped enigma! Anyway. After we're done with our unicorn orgy here :)

:gay-color:

I'd just like to point out to the wonderful people at Yale Divinity School, who do not have time for your shenanigans, fundies.

[formergothardite]

I would love to see some biblical basis for her "narrow and offensive" beliefs on gay Christians. I'm guessing she believs gay people can't be Christians and last time I checked that isn't in the Bible.

[oscar]

So, sisof9 has redefined "bisexuality" as something quite extreme and very different than how most reasonable people understand the term. And she's espoused "narrow and offensive beliefs" about Christianity and gay people, which will prevent people with more tolerant beliefs from engaging with her and broadening her perspective.

I really have no problem with her identifying as "straight" rather than "bi." But the fingers-in-the-ears, "La la la I'm straight I can't hear you! And I don't believe you exist and you're probably an attention seeking faker, nothing like me at all!" has got to go.

[Crackedeggs]

As females go, I'm fairly masculine. I'm tall, strong, and enjoy the more "manly" pursuits like yard/garden work, woodworking, stuff like that, than sewing and cooking ( though I can do both of those things fairly well). I've always attracted guys who were metrosexuals or bi. My first husband was in fact practicing bi and not faithful to me, not a fun thing to deal with at the advent of AIDS. I don't get along well with most other women - I find them catty, backstabbing, trifling and petty in real life - but I make some fantastic female friends on line, and most of them are at least a little bi and some of whom I hang out with in person. I've never had sex with a woman, or a crush on one, but I've found them sexually appealing in porn.

Does this make me what, a part time unicorn?

[sisof9]

OMG, y'all crack me up. I forgot that saying ANYTHING on here gets taken to the extreme.

I was not saying AT ALL that just because you are bi you are unfaithful to your s/o or going to be a slut. It's just that the couple of bi people I have interacted with felt that it wasn't fair for their partner to expect them to be faithful because then their(the bi partner's) needs weren't getting met. So, I was just clarifying that I don't think bi is selfish - I think that the reasoning that some people have used is selfish. (I guess they are unicorns too since it doesn't seem to be a wildly held thing ;))

I was NOT saying that anyone on here or anyone I have ever met is "faking it". I have almost never assumed that anyone was faking it, and the only reason I have at times assumed that was girls in the 12 - 17 range who will say they are lesbians one day and then a week later be like "no i am bi 'cause i wanna have a boyfriend" and were obviously just experimenting and didn't know who or what they were. And that's fine, they can figure it out, but when I have asked them why try sex with girls it's because "it seemed cool" "it sounded fun" "i wanted to try it".... But, I have not met a lot of gay people - or rather I have not been close with a lot. I have definitely met a lot - I live in the Washington, DC area my community college campuses had much larger GLBT groups on campus than the campus crusade for Christ. :) And a lot of my thoughts and ideas have come from TV, so I guess if I want people to stop viewing Christians by how the media portrays them then I should extend the same courtesy. :)

Of course I WANT a cardboard cookie - anything that resembles goodness with no calories is my FAVE! ;) But, I don't expect it. I don't understand why people on here can't disagree with each other without starting world war 3 (PBJ *cough*), but I will try to be more careful in how I say thing.

Obviously I have my opinions/thoughts/values because I think that I am right. But, that doesn't mean that I want to go around attacking people - especially on a forum where the majority are not going to share my opinions. Just because I think that I am right doesn't mean it's my job to inform the world of my rightness. :-p

As for the Christian Gay question...

There is a lot that goes into that... I am not God, let's start there lest anyone wondered what level of craziness I possess. ;) I can't fathom to understand God's mind and heart, and these questions are what are leading to a lot of my personal doubts these days about a lot of the questions y'all are asking me. :) So, a lot of these are what I understand the Bible to say, what I have been taught the Bible means, and are by NO means infallible. IOW, I COULD BE WRONG! :)

All it takes to be saved is God turning your heart to Himself and allowing you to believe The Gospel, and obviously you believing it. However, if someone is truly a Christian/saved then their desires for sin and their ability to sin freely lessens. This doesn't mean Christians don't want to do crappy things or immoral things - it just means that the more God is at work in your life the less you will desire/do.

*IF* homosexuality is wrong then to "act upon it" would mean openly sinning and if you are openly sinning and don't care then there is a reason to wonder if you are saved.

HOWEVER... I am very confused in this area because I don't understand why there are people who are only attracted to their same gender if they are not allowed to act upon it. If God is sovereign and loving etc etc etc then how does/did this happen and why is it wrong?

That really is the crux of all of this, everything is black is what I believe and what I have been taught, but the part in pink is where I wrestle. I look at the scriptures that people hold up for where God says it is wrong, and I have a hard time with them. *shrugs*

I probably should not have admitted the part at the end, but I am trying to be totally honest here and I cannot be totally honest without admitting my own doubts. :)

BTW, my name is D?i?d?i K?e?p?p?e?l? on the old board and IRL :). Like I said, I don't mind y'all knowing, but I wanted to try to keep it from coming up on google and such 'cause I have had a LOT of bad experiences in the past with people googling my name and then a lot of crap coming from it. :)

[formergothardite]

Do you also wonder if people who over eat are Christians? The Bible speaks more about gluttony than homosexuality. What about people who have more than one outfit? The Bible says that if you have two tunics you should give one away to someone in need. Therefore it stands to reason that if you have more than one outfit you are openly sinning. The same verse speaks of giving food to those who need it. Do you wonder if people who don't help feed the hungry are actually Christians?

Even in my fundie days I never understood why homosexuality is the thing that fundies latch onto as a sin that makes people not Christian, but all the other stuff in the Bible speaks against that most Christians participate in on a daily basis are glossed over.

[sisof9]

Do you also wonder if people who over eat are Christians? The Bible speaks more about gluttony than homosexuality. What about people who have more than one outfit? The Bible says that if you have two tunics you should give one away to someone in need. Therefore it stands to reason that if you have more than one outfit you are openly sinning. The same verse speaks of giving food to those who need it. Do you wonder if people who don't help feed the hungry are actually Christians?

Even in my fundie days I never understood why homosexuality is the thing that fundies latch onto as a sin that makes people not Christian, but all the other stuff in the Bible speaks against that most Christians participate in on a daily basis are glossed over.

Yup. *laugh* I often think that "Why is it "gay people" is the big thing - why not Gossip or Gluttony or lack of Generosity?" (all "G" in honor of Gay :))

[formergothardite]

But you said you wonder about the salvation of gay people, do you also wonder about the salvation of people who do those other things? Do you have more than one outfit? Do you give your food to people in need? Do you ever overeat? Would you attend a church that had an openly gay pastor? What about a church tht had a pastor who had more than one outfit or who overate? Both are spoken against in the Bible.

[debrand]

I don't know how to indentify myself. All my life, I have noticed women and felt attracted to them. Sometimes, I even fantasize about them. But I've never acted on those fantasies.

After I turned forty, I allowed myself to acknowledge that I was bisexual-or at least, not quite straight. My husband said that he wasn't surprised because I always point out good looking women to him.

Funny story. My brother's new, much younger, very pretty girlfriend totally defrauded me by bending over repeatedly in front of me and accidentally exposing her boobs. :oops:

[valsa]

BTW, my name is D?i?d?i K?e?p?p?e?l? on the old board and IRL :)

Ah, no wonder I think you're full of crap. I thought you were full of it and a troll under your old name too.

Different day, same smell.

[sisof9]

I don't wonder if someone who struggles with these things is a Christian - we all struggles with sin. It's the actively pursuing it and not feeling guilty about it that concerns me. If someone is a gossip, knows they are a gossip, and doesn't care then I would wonder about them as well. :-p

As for the clothing things - it's not a command, it's not a "it's a sin to own more than one piece of clothing" (or to braid your hair or wear earrings or...) A lot of things in scripture are not literal. I definitely think that's where a lot of issues come in though is people debating on what is literal and what is metaphorical. NOT something I wanna get in to. :)

BTW, Thanks Valsa - nice to know how you feel. ;) I am not a troll. I have never been a troll. Just because I am a conservative Christian, maybe even a fundie doesn't make me a troll. :)

[treemom]

Well of course. Why couldn't they be? Religion is really self identified.

[failsafe]

A lot of things in scripture are not literal. I definitely think that's where a lot of issues come in though is people debating on what is literal and what is metaphorical. NOT something I wanna get in to.

Why not? That's where the whole crux of the debate lies, though I think metaphorical is perhaps the wrong word. Instead it's - what are the fundamental wrongs explored and condemned by the Bible? Which laws are the ones written for a specific society at a specific time which are no longer applicable today?

I have no doubt that at one point, most laws in the Bible were intended to be taken literally. We don't take most of them literally today, however.

[demgirl]

I have to say, I vehemently disagree with sisof9 about everything she has written on homosexuality. But I don't see anything trollish about her behavior. I don't remember her from the other board, so I can only speak to what she has said here, but I don't think having views that are highly objectionable is being a troll.

[sisof9]

FailSafe - Because I am not a scholar, because I don't know a lot, and because to be completely honest - I am not interested in changing anyone's minds or having mind changed. I just enjoy the discussions and blogs and such - I didn't join here to debate whether homosexuality is a sin or any of that. I just put it in my answers on the questionnaire because s/he asked what makes me a fundy, so I was listing the reasons I would be considered "fundie".

Demgirl - thanks. :) I have no problem with folks disagreeing with 100% of what I say. :-p Depending on the day *I* disagree with at least 50% of what comes out of my mouth. ;)

ETA the names of the ones I was responding to :)

[formergothardite]

"He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise."

or

"If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?"

Doesn't sound metaphorical to me. Pretty clear that if you have more than you need (do you really need all the clothes in your closet?) you are supposed to share and if you don't you don't have the love of God in you. There are an epic amount of verses in the Bible about giving what you have to those in need, way more than the verses about homosexuality. Sounds like you don't want it to be a commandment so you can skip over all those verses without feeling guilty while at the same time pondering the salvation of other people.

[sisof9]

Valsa- What is your definition of a troll? Or really anyone, not just Valsa, what is your definition of a troll? I thought a troll was someone who came on here just to spam or create drama. I mean some of us create drama just through being part of discussions and such, but that is in the context of community, not my reason for being here. :)

[sisof9]

Former - I 100% agree with you!! I don't think those verses mean don't own more than one shirt. I think they mean help those in need. If you see someone who is hungry feed him, if you see someone who needs clothes give away some of yours, if someone needs somewhere to sleep invite them into your house. All which I 100% agree with and are ways I try to live my life. Not perfectly of course, but I try. I probably give clothes to the local shelters or such 3 or 4 times a year. At least I did when I had more money/more clothes. :)

I TRY, not always consistent, but I TRY to always offer to buy people who come up and beg for money in DC something to eat. I don't give them money because I don't want to contribute to drugs or whatever, but I try to always offer to buy them lunch.

I am not trying to boast here - I am just saying I think I am trying to live by those verses.

[debrand]

I have to say, I vehemently disagree with sisof9 about everything she has written on homosexuality. But I don't see anything trollish about her behavior. I don't remember her from the other board, so I can only speak to what she has said here, but I don't think having views that are highly objectionable is being a troll.

I agree. My views on homosexuality have changed drastically from when I was younger so I hold out hope that other people's views can change also.

[Witsec1]

Here's what Jesus Christ had to say about homosexuality:

:idea:

[sisof9]

FloraPaste - just so you know, at least on my comp - your quote box comes up empty.

[failsafe]

FailSafe - Because I am not a scholar, because I don't know a lot, and because to be completely honest - I am not interested in changing anyone's minds or having mind changed. I just enjoy the discussions and blogs and such - I didn't join here to debate whether homosexuality is a sin or any of that. I just put it in my answers on the questionnaire because s/he asked what makes me a fundy, so I was listing the reasons I would be considered "fundie".

I don't think you're a troll, sisof9, but I honestly cannot comprehend the perspective "I'm not interested in having my mind changed." It seems very camel-burying-its-head-in-the-sand to me. I have some pretty strong opinions - things I feel are important in my life. But if someone presented a reasoned argument to me against those principles, I would *want* to reexamine my beliefs. In fact, I think when you embark on intelligent debate on a subject, you end up strengthened either way - you see a different perspective outside of your own, sometimes you end up strengthened in your own belief and other times you end up changing your mind. If I held fast to everything I ever had a thought about and never ever wanted to have my mind changed, I can say I would be a much poorer person. It seems to me a grave disservice to your own intellect to say things like "I'm not interested in having my mind changed." YOU are the only one that can choose to change your mind, but challenging, questioning and reexamining your beliefs is the only way I know of to end up with a belief system I consciously choose at all. If I don't do that, I am just following what others tell me and never considering it for myself.

[failsafe]

FloraPaste - just so you know, at least on my comp - your quote box comes up empty.

I think it was meant to be a joke, since Jesus didn't ever say anything at all about homosexuality.

[valsa]

Valsa- What is your definition of a troll?

Rather like the Supreme Court's definition of obscenity- "I can't define it but I know it when I see it" Though, for starters, anyone who proudly proclaims themselves as being a fundie raises a red flag with me. One, because you're proudly proclaiming to be something many here find vile and two, because I view fundies as being despicable and as far as I'm concerned, anyone who admits to being one might as well just confess to being a cat torturer instead. I view both the same way.

Plus, this isn't the first time you've spouted your ignorance about homosexuality (including your half-assed covering for your definition of "bisexuality" Funny how you didn't learn from the last time you were corrected about that- http://freejinger.yuku.com/topic/5917/B ... ren?page=1 )

Someone who repeatedly makes ignorant and outrageous claims that get a rise out of people and never learns, even when corrected... to me says you may be more interested in pissing people off than anything else. That's troll behavior.

[sisof9]

oh - haha - sorry! i was curious too 'cause I didn't remember Jesus ever speaking on that matter. :)

As to the "not looking to have my mind changed" it's not exactly that I am not open to changing my mind on stuff. I change my mind on lots of things through discussion/debate - some of my views have even altered slightly through reading FJ :) But, it's more that I don't want to get into debates and such right now about most topics because I am trying to figure out what I believe and when I start to debate I get confused. *laugh*