Can Christians Be Gay? Convo (Splitting from Intro Thread)

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm grabbing this out of the Intro thread because I think it can be an interesting discussion on its own merits. Soldier of the One was asking some of our resident fundies questions, sisof9 responded, and now the tangent is up, up, and away! Pertinent quotes follow.

Hey Soldier,

I dunno if I am a fundie - probably, but more fundie lite I'd assume. Lol!! I think in my ideals I am much more fundy than in my practices. :-)

1) What brought you to FJ and what makes you stick around? (I can imagine this not being the most inviting place for fundies )

I was googling the Duggars, and was bored of reading TWOP and saw a link to freejinger. :-) And then this became a way to read all of the fundies' blogs I could ever want to read about. ;-)

2) Do you believe in wifely submission, and if so, how?

Yes, in my head. *laugh* It was definitely in our wedding vows - I specifically asked our pastor to put "love honor obey" in there, pastor wanted to make it respect not obey. :-) But in Hubby and I's lives it's really a LOT of teamwork, neither of us makes a big decision without the other - I feel like it's more common courtesy and respect rather than *I* submit to HIM. The times when he "tells me what to do" are times when in the same situation I would tell him what to do. Like, if I didn't get much sleep and am falling apart, but really want to go to this party he might say "I think we should stay home honey, let's do that.", but I do the same for him. I think it will come into play more when we have kids, but still not a him over me mentality. I am not a very submissive person. *laugh*

3) What kind of a fundie are you?

Sovereign Grace Ministries - although I've been having a lot of issues in recent years. We'll see how things go. The funny part is that I am more conservative them most SGMers in a lot of my thought patterns. I prefer long skirts, hubby prefers me in long skirts, so it's what I wear 75% of the time. But then again, hubby loves it when I wear hoochie mama skirts and shorts out places too, so he is not consistent. ;-) I wore a headcovering on and off for years and in ideal hubby prefers it (and I do too), but they give me headaches and I just cannot reconcile them to what I believe about God. So, it makes for some interesting times. I don't believe in women pastors, and yet feel like women should be allowed to do whatever they are good at. I believe homosexuality is wrong, and yet I believe there are actual gay people in the world (who aren't just experimenting or trying to be "cool") and I don't know how to reconcile the two. I don't know... In my first intro on the old board I talked about all of my fundy and non fundy traits. :-) (And was immediately insulted because my grammar, spelling, and punctuation were so atrocious that the woman couldn't believe I plan to educate my children at home. :))

4) What are your feelings on the more extreme fundies out there, like Bill Gothard, the Botkins and Doug Phillips?

*shudders* I think they all have SOME good things to offer, but it is mixed in with SO MUCH CRAP that I don't believe they are healthy leaders or mentalities to have. Rather, ATI, VF, and the SAHD movements are harmful worldviews.

5) What do you like best about being a fundie?

Well, I am super grateful that hubby is the only person I have ever been with sexually. I am not saying non-fundies can never have this experience, but I think it is more common in fundie circles. *sorry I keep changing my spelling of fundy, I can't figure out which one I like ;)* I am grateful that I was never exposed to drugs, alcohol, smoking, etc when I was younger, so that I don't have to deal with them now. I don't mean I was never around them (except drugs :)), but I never had an opportunity to try them until I was way past 21, and it's not something I prefer now. Hubby enjoys mixed drinks and cigars. :-)

I love the fact that I was homeschooled in my younger years. I had the closest bond with my siblings and I am REALLY happy about that! I want to homeschool *with co-ops and such*, so that my kids can have that experience and so that I don't miss out on the majority of their childhoods. (not to say that kids who go to school can't have close relationships with their siblings or parents :))

I don't know if being a Christian makes me a fundy, but I am eternally grateful (literally - lol) for my relationship with God, and am looking forward to eternity with Him. :-)

Do you think that a lot of gay people are just experimenting or trying to be "cool?" Because that's pretty offensive. But thanks for acknowledging that I exist, I guess, even though you think I'm wrong. (Wait, do you believe in bisexuals? Maybe you don't. If people don't believe in me, maybe I'm a unicorn!) Gay peoples' lives apparently = an interesting moral quandry for straight fundies. Okay then. I suppose you know that there are many, many gay Christians, right? Or do they not exist to you?

Lissar -

Many Christians believe that homosexuality is 100% choice, and I was at least trying to acknowledge that there are people who are legitimately attracted to their same gender. Sorry if I made you feel like a unicorn. :) (Although I personally love Unicorns ;))

To be completely honest - I think that a large percentage of "GLBT" people today take on that label to be part of something different and "cool" ESPECIALLY teens/early 20's. I do not judge who is what, and I would never presume to tell someone that they are not what they thing they are. IOW, I am not going to say "You aren't gay." to someone who is struggling with that - or decided. Bisexuality... well, I shouldn't answer on that one or I WILL offend people. I'll just leave it at - whether you are a religious person or not I think you should be faithful to the person you are with/married to/committed to. I think it is selfish to say that because you are attracted to both genders that you need both at the same time to be happy. (same not NOT meaning in the same bed same time :p)

I mean, I am WAY more attracted to the female body than male body, but A: I am a christian since age 4, so it was never an option for me and B: I am totally head over heels in love with my hubby and enjoy sex with him immensely. So, I am happily straight. :)

As to the Christian Gay question... if you really want to discuss it we can, but you will find my answers narrow and offensive, and I really do not know a way to express my views on that that would not hurt anyone. Even my views on "actual gay people" would be considered horribly offensive, so I generally try to keep my mouth shut about it on here and just snark on people more conservative than I am. *halo*

[Guest Anonymous]

Lissar -

1.)Many Christians believe that homosexuality is 100% choice, and I was at least trying to acknowledge that there are people who are legitimately attracted to their same gender. Sorry if I made you feel like a unicorn. :) (Although I personally love Unicorns ;))

To be completely honest - 2.)I think that a large percentage of "GLBT" people today take on that label to be part of something different and "cool" ESPECIALLY teens/early 20's. I do not judge who is what, and I would never presume to tell someone that they are not what they thing they are. IOW, I am not going to say "You aren't gay." to someone who is struggling with that - or decided. 3.)Bisexuality... well, I shouldn't answer on that one or I WILL offend people. I'll just leave it at - whether you are a religious person or not I think you should be faithful to the person you are with/married to/committed to. 4.)I think it is selfish to say that because you are attracted to both genders that you need both at the same time to be happy. (same not NOT meaning in the same bed same time :p)

5.)I mean, I am WAY more attracted to the female body than male body, but A: I am a christian since age 4, so it was never an option for me and B: I am totally head over heels in love with my hubby and enjoy sex with him immensely. So, I am happily straight. :)

6.)As to the Christian Gay question... if you really want to discuss it we can, but you will find my answers narrow and offensive, and I really do not know a way to express my views on that that would not hurt anyone. Even my views on "actual gay people" would be considered horribly offensive, so I generally try to keep my mouth shut about it on here and just snark on people more conservative than I am. *halo*

1.) What do you want, a cardboard cookie for not being quite as bigoted as some other people?

2.) Bullshit you aren't judging. That's exactly what you're doing. Do you know any gay people? How many of them do you think are faking? Why do you think people would pretend to be gay when that could easily get them beaten up or killed?

3.) Bisexual does not mean cheater. Are you fucking new? Bisexual means I can fall in love with a man or a woman, not that I fuck everyone who walks by. I have been faithful to my partner for seven years, I have never cheated on anyone. My straight, Christian, ex-husband cheated on me, though.

4.) I believe you are confusing bisexuality with polyamory. Some bisexuals may also be polyamorous, in which case there is nothing "selfish" about loving more than one person at a time, provided that everyone knows what's up and is cool with it.

5.) Goodie for you, I guess. But then I don't try to police who other people are having sex with, or think that it makes them sinners or wrong. It's really lucky for you that you can be happy fucking a dude even though you are more attracted to women. Lots of people can't do that.

6.) Hooray for self-awareness. At least you know that you're horribly offensive. You aren't hurting my feelings, by the way, so feel free to lay it on out here. I'd like to know what you think. It's pretty clear that we're going to disagree, but I want to hear it.

[valsa]

1.) What do you want, a cardboard cookie for not being quite as bigoted as some other people?

Probably. "I'm only 60% bigoted bitch, aren't I just wonderful?"

Why is it that teens who are in same sex relationships are just "experimenting" or "faking it"? I know plenty of homosexuals who were in opposite-sex relationships in high school but no one claims straight relationships are just "experimentation".

[oscar]

Lissar -

Many Christians believe that homosexuality is 100% choice, and I was at least trying to acknowledge that there are people who are legitimately attracted to their same gender. Sorry if I made you feel like a unicorn. :) (Although I personally love Unicorns ;))

To be completely honest - I think that a large percentage of "GLBT" people today take on that label to be part of something different and "cool" ESPECIALLY teens/early 20's. I do not judge who is what, and I would never presume to tell someone that they are not what they thing they are. IOW, I am not going to say "You aren't gay." to someone who is struggling with that - or decided. Bisexuality... well, I shouldn't answer on that one or I WILL offend people. I'll just leave it at - whether you are a religious person or not I think you should be faithful to the person you are with/married to/committed to. I think it is selfish to say that because you are attracted to both genders that you need both at the same time to be happy. (same not NOT meaning in the same bed same time :p)

I mean, I am WAY more attracted to the female body than male body, but A: I am a christian since age 4, so it was never an option for me and B: I am totally head over heels in love with my hubby and enjoy sex with him immensely. So, I am happily straight. :)

As to the Christian Gay question... if you really want to discuss it we can, but you will find my answers narrow and offensive, and I really do not know a way to express my views on that that would not hurt anyone. Even my views on "actual gay people" would be considered horribly offensive, so I generally try to keep my mouth shut about it on here and just snark on people more conservative than I am. *halo*

So, I'm married to a man and our marriage is great. I don't want any sort of sexual or romantic emotional relationship with anyone else. But I've always been overwhelmingly more attracted to women than to men, and I didn't stop finding women attractive when I married. Even though I am not going to act any feelings I have towards women, I identify as bi, and if I were single or in a relationship with a woman, I'd identify as lesbian, not bi. I'm pretty much not attracted to men other than my husband - not saying it couldn't happen, but it never ever has. (The key thing here is, I'm legitimately attracted to my husband.)

So it seems like sisof9 and I have similar perspectives on one level, but radically different ways of constructing identities around our experiences. Me? I'm NOT straight, and I'm not going to lie and pretend I am. And I'm Christian, if you believe Catholics are Christian.

And I'll be perfectly honest - I'm not as tough as Lissar, and I might need to bow out of this discussion if I start getting upset. I had a really bad experience being judged over my identity, and it's still kind of a tender spot for me.

(sisof9, it's REALLY hard for me to remember to call you by your new name - if I slip up and call you by your name from the old board, please let me know so I can edit.)

[Kaylee]

Bisexuality... well, I shouldn't answer on that one or I WILL offend people. I'll just leave it at - whether you are a religious person or not I think you should be faithful to the person you are with/married to/committed to. I think it is selfish to say that because you are attracted to both genders that you need both at the same time to be happy. (same not NOT meaning in the same bed same time :p)

Just so you know, most bisexual people don't feel like that need a partner of both sexes all the times. Just like most straight people don't feel like they need to be with every person of the opposite sex they're attracted to. Bi does not = poly or cheating.

A lot of people don't get that one, but having it explained to me pretty much saved my marriage. (Hubby came out to me as bi about 6 years into our marriage, while I was very entrenched in fundie-dom. It seriously freaked me out, so I looked for a counselor who specialized in gender & sexuality to make sense of it and found a really cool chick who explained to me that it did not mean he was gonna be running around on me with dudes, or had the right to expect to be able to do so while married, just because he was possibly attracted to both sexes.)

[xDreamerx]

I'm trying to restrain my anger at your completely misinformed and ignorant opinions. Bisexual people feel an attraction to both sexes, not the constant need to have sex with both sexes. I guess as one, I'm a unicorn too.

If you have such offensive opinions--that you yourself have said you don't fully understand in that you believe some people are gay---why keep them? Why not try to change your mind? Shocking I know. Try not to let your head explode.

How is being Christian somehow a trump for homosexuality or bisexuality?! The ignorance. The stupid. It burns.

[valsa]

Ha! I should have read more of what Sisof9 wrote.

1) Sisof9, people who are attracted to both sexes don't want to be in a relationship with people of both sexes any more than people who are attracted to both blonds and brunettes want to be in a relationship with both at the same time.

2) While I'm normally all for self-identification, if you're attracted to both men and women- YOU ARE A BISEXUAL.

You don't need to be in a relationship with people of both sexes, or ever have been in a relationships with a person of the same sex, to be a bisexual, you only need to be attracted to people of both sexes. Welcome to the perversion that is bisexuality. PM me if you want our secret handshake.

[LilMissMetaphor]

I thought this was interesting. It's just one perspective mind you.

Being gay and being a Christian are not necessarily exclusive categories. While it is important to recognize that homosexuality is not part of God's plan and that a gay life is one lived in sin, we must be ever vigilant to see the sin in our own lives as well. Christians accept that they are broken and sinful people. It is a basic tenet of faith, and if you do not hold to it, you are in more trouble than your friend. The majority of people in your church are living in just as much sin, with identities that are just as harmful, as anyone living the gay life. A deceitful spirit, a petty and divisive mind, a loose tongue, an unbounded sexual life, a haughty attitude -- all of these and so many more are on a par with gay sex. No sin trumps another. Every act that turns away from God and bends His law is an act of sin and death. Scripture tells us that "wherever there is jealousy and selfish ambition, there you will find disorder and every kind of evil" and that "the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as the person who has broken all of God's laws."

(from a website called undergroundrainbow dot com, written by an acquaintance.) Also the first time I've run across the concept of "post-gay"--had you guys?

[lawfulevil]

Dang it, did I forget to sign up for our secret handshake?

[Kelya]

oh yay, I'm a magical unicorn! and I've been a lesbian as a teenager and currently a young twenties adult...I should probably stop faking it now. Break up with the committed partner and move on out.

[lovefromgirl]

Damn, FJ sure has a lot of unicorns running around. Anyone up for trading mane and tail grooming tips? :)

Also, this:

2) While I'm normally all for self-identification, if you're attracted to both men and women- YOU ARE A BISEXUAL.

Yeah, you can stick your fingers in your ears and chant "Kinsey 0, Kinsey 0, Kinsey 0" all you like. It doesn't change what you find appealing. You can choose whether you act on your attractions--we all do. Otherwise, I'd have a whole harem of variously-gendered partners. This may also account for some of what looks like outgrowing one's sexuality. Speaking personally, identifying as queer feels odd to me sometimes because I look very straight, and as I've aged I've mellowed, so activism has taken a backseat to enjoying my partner. Said partner and I still nudge each other and point out the shinies, and yeah, we've been known to point out the same one. ("Did you see...?" "Oh, yes.")

[lawfulevil]

As one of my favorite books says, "He used to be bisexual--now he's monogamous". Describes me perfectly, activity-wise.

[Lainey]

Who was sisof9 on the old board?

I'm attracted to women as far as looks (we's pretty), but I don't want to sleep with one. I only like to sleep with men. What does that make me? I'm genuinely curious.

[themadapple]

Hm. I'm cool with sleeping with both genders, but only have those deep romantic love feelings for the menfolk. These matters aren't always so clear cut, but completely natural they are. Gay, straight, bi, every direction, none at all, slightly this or that -I'd call it being a human ;)

[Guest Anonymous]

Hm. I'm cool with sleeping with both genders, but only have those deep romantic love feelings for the menfolk. These matters aren't always so clear cut, but completely natural they are. Gay, straight, bi, every direction, none at all, slightly this or that -I'd call it being a human ;)

Hear hear! Sexuality is weird, wonderful, and often fluid.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Although there's a lot to be said for open relationships, swinging, polyamory, etc., too. So if a bisexual wants to date men and women at the same time, all the power to them. Is my general feeling. Most bisexuals stick with one person at a time and cheat at the same rate as straight people, sure, but if they do want to have both, why should anyone give a shit?

edited because I said 'so' too much and it was bugging me

[valsa]

Hm. I'm cool with sleeping with both genders, but only have those deep romantic love feelings for the menfolk.

I'm just the opposite. I'm sexually attracted to both genders but only have deep romantic love feelings for womenfolk. Weirdly enough, I'm only sexually attracted to men when I'm ovulating.

I interchangably identify as lesbian and bisexual (lesbian-leaning bisexual, if I feel like explaining what the hell that is)

[Alecto]

Yeah, Bisexuals are all sluts, dontcha know? *rolls eyes*

Now, let me draw back on my experience as a high school teacher - there is a trend of young females (who are probably bisexual) coming out as lesbians to shock their families/peers. I honestly feel like this behavior does hurt gays and lesbians, and I wish it would stop. However, the percentage is small (In my very large high school, I knew of 2 cases? So maybe one percent of all of the gay/lesbian students...) but they also happen to be vocal and trying to get attention, which is why you get opinions like the above.

That being said, there are alternative interpretations of the scripture, based in heavy scholarship that say the texts in the new testament about homosexuality have nothing to do with being gay and everything to do with not participating in pagan rituals, like giant orgies, which were popular back then in Greek society.

[bionicmlle]

Wow -- Great discussion and glad to see I share so many things with my FJers!

Bisexual here, married to a man but have had sexual relationships with women since we've been married - DH present every time, not "involved." This has been an incredibly ... uh.... edifying experience for us as a couple. :dance: Yeah, baby! I have no desire to have sex with any man other than my husband but would probably be happily polyamorous.

[tonamieaimee]

It's nice to know that I'm "cool", since the rest of my life is pretty nerdy. But hey, if we can't judge coolness based on sexual orientation, what is the world about?!

Also, Lissar, I think I love you.

[Guest Anonymous]

It's nice to know that I'm "cool", since the rest of my life is pretty nerdy. But hey, if we can't judge coolness based on sexual orientation, what is the world about?!

Also, Lissar, I think I love you.

You are in luck! Because I am a slutty bisexual unicorn, I will totally have sexytimes with you. There will be orgasms and GLITTER! /snerk.

[celestial]

Nice to see so many unicorns out in force here on fj. I too am a unicorn. A gay, gay invisible pink unicorn! :gay-imgay:

[Jencendiary]

There's no text in the bible that directly discusses an equitable sexual and romantic relationship between two people of the same gender. All the scriptures anti-gay people point to either apply in context to religious prostitution as practiced by the neighbors of the Israelites or Hellenic pederasty. In context, it's more about cultural purity (not being assimilated into the cultures that invaded/dispersed the groups) than about sexual morality. So, anyone who insists that being gay is a sin is requiring extrabiblical things of their followers. That constitutes fail, all around.

(I'm half a unicorn, but I end up in relationships with bisexuals and genderqueer types on a much higher percentage than I do with all-the-way straight folks. Does that count?)

[Alecto]

I think we need to have a unicorn parade. I love it.

[Patsy]

This issue depends on your definition of Christianity. If you don't think your opinion of what a Christian is has anything to do with whether or not anyone else IS a Christian*, then obviously there are gay Christians out there. And trans, intersex, genderqueer, asexual, bi, two-spirit, sistergirl, poly...

All of these things seem to make people think of a contradiction. If I had it on hand I would quote "Evolving in Monkey Town", because there is a fantastic passage on contradictory Christianity in there. If you believe that a core part of Christianity is that all people sin (which the author does), then ANYONE calling themselves a Christian is contradictory. It's just that modern U.S. Christianity seems to have courted/been hijacked by the Republican party, and now it's going off on this off-shoot culture war (in the fundamentalist/evangelical part of it, I mean) that is obsessed with romantic relationships.

* like, you have ideas about the Bible, but if Janey says "I'm a Christian and also a Pagan and Jesus was a lizard", she's a Christian.