Can Christians Be Gay? Convo (Splitting from Intro Thread)

[Witsec1]

It's a bit unfortunate that anyone who sticks their neck out around here by admitting to some fundie beliefs gets immediately clobbered with the "Prove it! And don't quote the Bible because the Bible contradicts itself!" meme. That's just as intellectually lazy as "I believe because my pastor told me so".

Yah, maybe you should re-read "What is Free Jinger About", eh:

If your viewpoint tends to the "traditional," you don't need to leave - in fact, you are welcome, because otherwise we're just a bunch of hens agreeing with each other - but you do need a nice thick hide and the intellectual ability to defend your thinking. "Because Mama and Jesus told me so" is not sufficient to protect you here.

How is it intellectually lazy to expect that someone defend their beliefs? Also, no one is outright dismissing the Bible as a source for a belief system - just insisting that a reasonably consistent standard for interpretation be maintained.

I'm perfectly OK with "I don't know" as an answer to this question. I'm not OK with "I'm going with no, even though I don't really accept any of the reasons for behind that answer", and that is what I hear Sisof9 saying, though she did not actually address my request for clarification.

The funny thing about this debate is that the hard-core atheists that the fundies hate would actually agree on this one. "Yes, the Bible forbids homosexuality. Now drop religion and party with us!" As an ex-christian, I don't really care, but I have gay friends whose faith is important to them.

[oscar]

This thread has an identity disorder: the title suggests it's discussing whether it's possible to be a gay Christian (and a few people have touched on that), but it's also trying to get sisof9 to prove/defend her personal set of beliefs regarding sexuality. I think they probably deserve separate threads.

It's a bit unfortunate that anyone who sticks their neck out around here by admitting to some fundie beliefs gets immediately clobbered with the "Prove it! And don't quote the Bible because the Bible contradicts itself!" meme. That's just as intellectually lazy as "I believe because my pastor told me so".

LMM, I think you are mischaracterizing this thread. sisof9 acknowledges that she has approached "what the bible has to say about homosexuality" through a particular social and cultural lens, and that this perspective appears to be inconsistent with scriptures that were written in a very different time, place and culture AND with her own lived experience. I see very little in this thread that is not germane.

Why don't you start your own undergroundrainbow thread if that's the kind of thing you want to talk about?

[Rosa]

Florapaste, I'm right there with you - as an ex-Christian, I am completely OK with saying, no, Christianity is anti-woman and anti-queer, let's go do something else. But one of my ex girlfriends got born again and transitioned and is now a straight, trans, Evangelical. My stepsister is a queer Evangelical. I have legally married, lesbian, Jewish, adoptive parent friends. Obviously there are a lot of people out there figuring out how to reconcile two or more identities, and it's not really my business (as an ex-Christian) to tell them if it is or is not theologically possible.

It seems clear, from my vantage point in a city with better than 30 publicly welcoming Christian congregations, that the culture is going to make it as obvious that you can be gay and Christian as it currently seems obvious you can be divorced and Christian (and with better Biblical support). Common theological understanding will undoubtedly catch up - right now it looks like "If God didn't like gay people he wouldn't have made so many" is going to be the common wisdom within a generation.

[debrand]

Christianity is a mallable religion. It will change to suit the times. Monogamous homosexuality will eventually be accepted as part of Christianity

[Hane]

I'm attracted to women as far as looks (we's pretty), but I don't want to sleep with one. I only like to sleep with men. What does that make me? I'm genuinely curious.

Maybe homosocial, like me? Most of my social interactions and practically all of my close friendships are with women, but I only get a jones for the menfolks. Unfortunately, the menfolks don't return the favor. :cry:

[Witsec1]

Rosa, I totally agree with you that gay-friendly evangelical churches will be common within a few decades. Evangelicals like to pretend that they hold to an unchanging standard of morality based in the Bible, and that their morality is not at all based on social convention. But it totally is.

If you ask me, this is the true anxiety behind all the anxiety over "re-defining marriage" etc. If your morality is based on the Bible, and you are sure that the majority of your followers fear God rather than man, why would you be so anxious about what society as a whole thinks, as long as you live in a society that supports religious freedom? That's the Amish model. But most evangelical leaders know that their followers don't really take their ideas of morality from the Bible or their religious tradition. They know that there will be battles on homosexuality within evangelical christianity, and the leaders on the anti-gay side will lose market share. That's why it's so important to legally prohibit same sex marriage and forbid public school teachers from saying "gay". The evangelical leaders know that they can't really confine the sheeple to the homophobic pastures forever.