Adopting a failed abortion, then writing about it

[SpeakNow]

Two summers ago I was working as a camp counselor. About a week into the summer, one of my camper's fathers asked if I would be able to babysit his son for an hour after camp (until he came home from work). The father and son were from South Africa and were in the US for the summer for the father's job. I agreed. On the last day of babysitting, he offered me a beer before I left. When I declined, he started trying to make conversation with me. Then, out of the blue, he hugged me very tightly and tried to kiss me multiple times (not just on the cheek...and he tried to use tongue). I pushed him back and said I had to go. He kept saying "I'm sorry" as I walked out. I thought about reporting it, (obviously it wasn't nearly as bad as rape) but I didn't. He was going back to South Africa in two weeks, so I didn't think there was anything anyone could do. The whole thing left me really shaken.

[diddykong]

Imagine being called " a failed abortion" instead of a child, a person, a human, or even abortion survivor?

[chaotic life]

Four. :cry:

Five.

And nothing in the world would have convinced me to report. My own parents didn't really believe me, but exiled me to the furthest reaches of the US they could find when the pregnancy was revealed. The one trip I took to the ER, weeks afterward, had such a traumatic rape kit done that to this DAY I cannot tolerate male doctors doing ANY Gyn work on me, much less pelvic exams.

Perhaps a change in society that would have started with a belief that I wasn't making things up, it might be different. I was 16. Belief would have started at home, and as I said my family to this day partially blames me.

[DarkAnts]

I can barely get through a Gyno exam, by a woman or man doctor. It is extremely traumatic for me. I cannot imagine going through an exam after being raped. Also, when someone in authority questions my honesty it is a huge PTSD trigger for me. I couldn't do it. Either way I think I would have to spend time instutuonalized. I'm more likely to shoot and kill the bastard than to report it.

I have to bring my favorite pillow and a friend along. I can still go into a panic attack during the pelvic examination. The part I hate most is the STD testing. I have to get it every few years just to make sure. I hate waiting for the results of that. Its scary but has to be done. I currently have a wonderful nurse midwife for gyno exams. It helps to have a doctor you feel comfortable around.

[Rachel333]

Imagine being called " a failed abortion" instead of a child, a person, a human, or even abortion survivor?

In fairness, no where in the original article does it say "failed abortion." I hope the actual child never hears herself described that way.

[Widget]

Did anyone see Rape: The Unspeakable Crime on BBC?

Before anyone clicks it needs a trigger warning. It's very blunt, and also shows CCTV footage, exams (mostly off camera), interviews, and other evidence pertaining to actual rape victims.

youtube.com/watch?v=FQmrqN7ZhzA

It covers a lot of the issues related to rape being unreported, and covers one incredibly strong woman's entire journey through the British legal system from the actual rape to after the trial. I highly recommend the people who asked "why would a woman not report rape" or anyone who wants to better understand the complex issues facing victims to watch it.

Five.

And nothing in the world would have convinced me to report. My own parents didn't really believe me, but exiled me to the furthest reaches of the US they could find when the pregnancy was revealed. The one trip I took to the ER, weeks afterward, had such a traumatic rape kit done that to this DAY I cannot tolerate male doctors doing ANY Gyn work on me, much less pelvic exams.

Perhaps a change in society that would have started with a belief that I wasn't making things up, it might be different. I was 16. Belief would have started at home, and as I said my family to this day partially blames me.

Same. There needs to be huge shifts in society before women and girls will start to feel comfortable enough to report rape in general and partner, date, or acquaintance rape especially.

[Carla Bruni]

Both at school and at work, we had/have bilingual stickers inside every bathroom door with hotline numbers for victims of sexual assault & domestic violence. I really think this is an excellent first step to changing things, but it of course doesn't solve any of the issues victims have to go through beyond that bathroom door.

[chaotic life]

Also, few people understand that if you report rape and you are pregnant, not only do people NOT believe you that it was rape, but the rapist finds out about the baby and has LEGAL PARENTAL RIGHTS to that child.

SIL was raped at her high school prom. She did report. He's in prison and has been since it was reported, but he refuses to let my brother, the only father that child has ever known, adopt his child so he has full legal rights to the child he has raised.

[patsymae]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that I became an alcoholic, because the only way I could deal with having a man touch me was to be bombed. I'm now sober. And single. And I try to stay away from cops.

As for pregnancy, of course everyone accused me of lying about being raped. And the cops told me they knew I was lying because "real" rape victims would have been torn to bits and covered with blood (I panick and freeze when scared, and sure did when I was 15). And a nun told me that I was lying because it's impossible to get pregnant from rape because the body sends out special chemicals that prevent it (sound familiar?) That was years ago and not much as changed--one one adoption board, they posted advice to adoptive parents of children conceived by rape: "Explain to them that many young girls lie about being raped."

Ah...no, we didn't, and they don't.

[Widget]

Also, few people understand that if you report rape and you are pregnant, not only do people NOT believe you that it was rape, but the rapist finds out about the baby and has LEGAL PARENTAL RIGHTS to that child.

SIL was raped at her high school prom. She did report. He's in prison and has been since it was reported, but he refuses to let my brother, the only father that child has ever known, adopt his child so he has full legal rights to the child he has raised.

This is the main reason I would never report a rape that resulted in pregnancy.

Did you also know if a woman receives any form of government aid in most states a woman is REQUIRED to start a child support case against the father and cooperate with establishing paternity rights even if she were raped?

The exceptions when available usually require proof of a conviction or at least a police report forcing the victim to identify herself as a pregnant rape victim and to often attempt to prosecute the father ending in the same result of him becoming aware of the child.

It's a disgusting catch 22.

I would advise any woman who was raped and became pregnant, to tell no one unless they planned on giving the baby up for adoption and even then to not give any more information than necessary or to lie about knowing who the father is.

[patsymae]

"unless they planned on giving the baby up for adoption and even then to not give any more information than necessary or to lie about knowing who the father is."

Having the baby adopted doesn't change much. As I mentioned, adoptive parents are told to tell their children that young girls lie about being raped--so they grow up believing that their natural mother is a particularly hideous kind of liar. And rapist or not, a biological father has rights to his children--a mother can't just "give them up." So even if the mother said she didn't know who the father was (and this is the kind of lie I'd be inclined to excuse, morally, not to the child when they are reunited but to anyone resembling a social worker or adoption "professional") she would have to furnish a list of possible fathers that would be either contacted or published in a putative father's registry.Plus many potential adoptive parents want genetic info about children up front and consider that when deciding to accept or reject a match, and children with unknown fathers can be put into foster care rather than placed immediately while the state waits around to see if any "issues" surface.

Aside from major, major cultural shifts--both around all issues regarding rape as well as provision of social services so that all families, regardless of their education, income or perceived moral worth, are able to provide for their own children, regardless of how those children were conceived, and availability of legal abortion to all women who want it, regardless of if they use public health services (and thus no need to prove they filed police reports or performed, while under unbelievable trauma and stress, actions intended to "prove" rape, there is no, no, no "right" thing a woman pregnant from a rape can do.

So far five of us on one thread on one forum in the course of a day or two. Consider the odds.

There are thousands of us. We stay silent because speaking out more often than not makes us more, not less, likely to want to throw ourselves off the highest available building.

[Mama Mia]

What is also horrific is that there are segments of society where it is more acceptable that a young girl is pregnant through rape, than through consensual sex. How twisted is that ?

What I mean is, that it is very rare, but sometimes a young girl will tell her parents she was raped because it is more shameful to have become pregnant by her boyfriend. What kind of awful parents would prefer their daughter was raped ?

[BlackHawk]

"unless they planned on giving the baby up for adoption and even then to not give any more information than necessary or to lie about knowing who the father is."

Having the baby adopted doesn't change much. As I mentioned, adoptive parents are told to tell their children that young girls lie about being raped--so they grow up believing that their natural mother is a particularly hideous kind of liar. And rapist or not, a biological father has rights to his children--a mother can't just "give them up." So even if the mother said she didn't know who the father was (and this is the kind of lie I'd be inclined to excuse, morally, not to the child when they are reunited but to anyone resembling a social worker or adoption "professional") she would have to furnish a list of possible fathers that would be either contacted or published in a putative father's registry.Plus many potential adoptive parents want genetic info about children up front and consider that when deciding to accept or reject a match, and children with unknown fathers can be put into foster care rather than placed immediately while the state waits around to see if any "issues" surface.

Aside from major, major cultural shifts--both around all issues regarding rape as well as provision of social services so that all families, regardless of their education, income or perceived moral worth, are able to provide for their own children, regardless of how those children were conceived, and availability of legal abortion to all women who want it, regardless of if they use public health services (and thus no need to prove they filed police reports or performed, while under unbelievable trauma and stress, actions intended to "prove" rape, there is no, no, no "right" thing a woman pregnant from a rape can do.

So far five of us on one thread on one forum in the course of a day or two. Consider the odds.

There are thousands of us. We stay silent because speaking out more often than not makes us more, not less, likely to want to throw ourselves off the highest available building.

I'd like to address a couple things in your reply. Please know I am not attacking you or your opinion, I am merely addressing the statements you yourself made.

First, as someone actually in the adoption world and having dealt with adoptive parents and agencies, I have never heard anyone tell an adoptive parent to tell their children that " that young girls lie about being raped--so they grow up believing that their natural mother is a particularly hideous kind of liar." Do you have statistics or actual stories or is this an opinion? I am really interested if this is actually going on or if this is a lie. I'm leaning towards a fabrication.

Second you state "And rapist or not, a biological father has rights to his children--". Does this mean that after a convicted rapist has served his time, he then has a right to have custody to the child he father through rape? How does this work if his victim was a child who gave birth to a female child? Does the rapist have a right then to take custody and sue the mother for child support? Does the rapist have a right to demand visitation with the child of his victim?

The last thing I want to ask questions about in your statement is "and children with unknown fathers can be put into foster care rather than placed immediately while the state waits around to see if any "issues" surface." Do you care to expand on this statement? How long will the children languish in foster care before a permanent home will be found for them? Who will be responsible for the payments to the state? Here, at least, when a child is placed in foster care the parents are required to pay "child support" to the state. Do you suggest that a women who, otherwise, wants nothing to do with her child be forced to pay child support in order for the child to languish in a state run house instead of allowing that woman to make the decision to place her child in an adoptive home?

[Anxious Girl]

... How can you adopt a "failed" abortion?

[Widget]

"unless they planned on giving the baby up for adoption and even then to not give any more information than necessary or to lie about knowing who the father is."

And rapist or not, a biological father has rights to his children--a mother can't just "give them up." So even if the mother said she didn't know who the father was (and this is the kind of lie I'd be inclined to excuse, morally, not to the child when they are reunited but to anyone resembling a social worker or adoption "professional") she would have to furnish a list of possible fathers that would be either contacted or published in a putative father's registry.

They can if the child was conceived due to rape at least in Illinois, Indiana, California, Nevada, Washington, and Wisconsin. Consent and/or notification of the father is waived in adoptions of babies conceived in rape.

It's possible in Utah as well, simply because of how hard it is for putative fathers to assert rights.

[J'ean Skirt]

Imagine being called " a failed abortion" instead of a child, a person, a human, or even abortion survivor?

That was my words, because that's what I got from the tone of the article. She isn't a child or a person, she's what's left from an abortion. Her entire use is as a standard or a flag. She's not who she is, she is a SYMBOL. And a symbol that's being used to harm people.

I finally figured out, too, one of the things that was so bothering me about the article.

In order for a birth defect to be caused by the abortion attempt, the placenta had to be ruptured. Rupture the placenta and horrible things happen, to both the mother and the pregnancy.

It's All Lies. Horrible, horrible lies.

[chaotic life]

In my family, there are four rapes which led to pregnancy. Myself and my SIL, and two of my adoptive siblings were conceived in rape. In my case, I declared it a stranger rape and simply committed perjury. It was the only way I could avoid the abortion I didn't want, parenting I refused to do, and notifying the creep that raped and stalked me that there was a child involved. The mothers of my siblings simply accepted the label of "slut" and refused to name the father, saying they didn't know who it was and wouldn't give the name at all.

The biggest thing my experience did for me was turn me pro-choice. NO WOMAN should have anyone dictate what choice she has in those circumstances. Furthermore, because I have always refused to hide in shame, I have discovered an alarming trend of women who easily confide in me about their rapes which led to conception. Most quietly get abortions, others place for adoption and a small number parent. Most simply don't talk about the rape because society DOES NOT BELIEVE US.

[bananacat]

And rapist or not, a biological father has rights to his children--a mother can't just "give them up."

Honestly, I absolutely hate this type of framing. Parents should never have rights to children, and nobody should have a right to have a child. The only thing that should matter is the rights of the child. It's thinking like this that leads to infertile couples feeling entitled to babies and feeling that other women have an obligation to provide them. It's this line of thought that makes our society so prone to look the other way on child abuse and so unwilling to say anything negative about parents who hit their children. Everything is framed as the rights of adults in relation to children, when it should be the exact opposite.

Now, how to address that is a completely separate issue and it shouldn't be easy to forgo notifying the biological father. But that's not because of his right to have that child; it's because it is frequently in the best interest of the child to be raised by a biological father (especially when the alternative is so frequently temporary foster care or an institution). I'm sure we're aligned on most of the goals, but the focus needs to be on the child, not the parents, adoptive or biological, rapist or not.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I'd like to address a couple things in your reply. Please know I am not attacking you or your opinion, I am merely addressing the statements you yourself made.

First, as someone actually in the adoption world and having dealt with adoptive parents and agencies, I have never heard anyone tell an adoptive parent to tell their children that " that young girls lie about being raped--so they grow up believing that their natural mother is a particularly hideous kind of liar." Do you have statistics or actual stories or is this an opinion? I am really interested if this is actually going on or if this is a lie. I'm leaning towards a fabrication.

Second you state "And rapist or not, a biological father has rights to his children--". Does this mean that after a convicted rapist has served his time, he then has a right to have custody to the child he father through rape? How does this work if his victim was a child who gave birth to a female child? Does the rapist have a right then to take custody and sue the mother for child support? Does the rapist have a right to demand visitation with the child of his victim?

The last thing I want to ask questions about in your statement is "and children with unknown fathers can be put into foster care rather than placed immediately while the state waits around to see if any "issues" surface." Do you care to expand on this statement? How long will the children languish in foster care before a permanent home will be found for them? Who will be responsible for the payments to the state? Here, at least, when a child is placed in foster care the parents are required to pay "child support" to the state. Do you suggest that a women who, otherwise, wants nothing to do with her child be forced to pay child support in order for the child to languish in a state run house instead of allowing that woman to make the decision to place her child in an adoptive home?

Black Hawk:

As I'm sure you know or are learning, laws on adoption and family law in general varies tremendously from one state/province to another. Some places have make it fairly easy to dispense with the rights of a "casual fornicator" (ie. father who is not married/in a serious relationship with the mother and possibly unknown), some do not. Laws on foster care also vary tremendously, although there is a general principle that if a child is placed in foster care as a baby, the state will at some point move to terminate the parental rights so that the child becomes available for adoption.

Patsymae - I can only assume that you are referring to some bizarre fundie subset of adoptive parents, and not adoptive parents in general, with your comment that adoptive parents tell children that young girls lie about being raped. I've practiced child protection law for 17 years, and have never, ever encountered anything like that.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Honestly, I absolutely hate this type of framing. Parents should never have rights to children, and nobody should have a right to have a child. The only thing that should matter is the rights of the child. It's thinking like this that leads to infertile couples feeling entitled to babies and feeling that other women have an obligation to provide them. It's this line of thought that makes our society so prone to look the other way on child abuse and so unwilling to say anything negative about parents who hit their children. Everything is framed as the rights of adults in relation to children, when it should be the exact opposite.

Now, how to address that is a completely separate issue and it shouldn't be easy to forgo notifying the biological father. But that's not because of his right to have that child; it's because it is frequently in the best interest of the child to be raised by a biological father (especially when the alternative is so frequently temporary foster care or an institution). I'm sure we're aligned on most of the goals, but the focus needs to be on the child, not the parents, adoptive or biological, rapist or not.

I'd say it's the opposite.

An adoptive family or even a potential foster placement may be wonderful - but neither can be considered unless and until the biological parents or a kinship placement are shown to be harmful.

Parental rights are not absolute, although the point at which authorities will intervene can vary greatly from one place to another. It's a balancing act, because a child does lose something when they cannot be with their biological family, and because the process of intervention can be traumatic itself.

[BlackHawk]

Black Hawk:

As I'm sure you know or are learning, laws on adoption and family law in general varies tremendously from one state/province to another. Some places have make it fairly easy to dispense with the rights of a "casual fornicator" (ie. father who is not married/in a serious relationship with the mother and possibly unknown), some do not. Laws on foster care also vary tremendously, although there is a general principle that if a child is placed in foster care as a baby, the state will at some point move to terminate the parental rights so that the child becomes available for adoption.

Patsymae - I can only assume that you are referring to some bizarre fundie subset of adoptive parents, and not adoptive parents in general, with your comment that adoptive parents tell children that young girls lie about being raped. I've practiced child protection law for 17 years, and have never, ever encountered anything like that.

Yes, I know laws on adoption and family law in general. I may not have a law degree, but ethical adoption is something I firmly believe in. I am not saying that adoption doesn't need to be looked at and revamped, but that doesn't change the questions above. That doesn't change the fact that in an ideal world adoption wouldn't need to be, but we don't live in an ideal world. To insinuate that no adoption is ethical, that all adoptions are coerced, is asinine at best. To purposefully put your head in the sand and scream that a woman cannot make up her own mind on placing her child, or that everyone is out to steal babies, is no better than people who scream that all abortions are forced. To decide that you know better than everyone else is showing your ignorance on the topic. No system is perfect, no one can argue that.

Either way, I really want to know Patsymae's answers. I doubt I will get them, but it doesn't change the questions.

[Patsy]

I am really interested if this is actually going on or if this is a lie. I'm leaning towards a fabrication.

one one adoption board, they posted advice to adoptive parents of children conceived by rape: "Explain to them that many young girls lie about being raped."

Either way, I really want to know Patsymae's answers. I doubt I will get them, but it doesn't change the questions.

Yeah, why wouldn't she want to engage with you after you called her a liar.

To insinuate that no adoption is ethical, that all adoptions are coerced, is asinine at best. To purposefully put your head in the sand and scream that a woman cannot make up her own mind on placing her child, or that everyone is out to steal babies, is no better than people who scream that all abortions are forced.

Are you referring to things she said in another thread? Because I can't find that sentiment here.

[formergothardite]

I think a guy gives up his "rights" to his biological child produced through rape when he, you know, rapes a woman. It is really fucked up that a raped woman who chooses to have the child will have to worry about her rapists "rights" to that child.

[patsymae]

I'd like to address a couple things in your reply. Please know I am not attacking you or your opinion, I am merely addressing the statements you yourself made.

First, as someone actually in the adoption world and having dealt with adoptive parents and agencies, I have never heard anyone tell an adoptive parent to tell their children that " that young girls lie about being raped--so they grow up believing that their natural mother is a particularly hideous kind of liar." Do you have statistics or actual stories or is this an opinion? I am really interested if this is actually going on or if this is a lie. I'm leaning towards a fabrication.

Second you state "And rapist or not, a biological father has rights to his children--". Does this mean that after a convicted rapist has served his time, he then has a right to have custody to the child he father through rape? How does this work if his victim was a child who gave birth to a female child? Does the rapist have a right then to take custody and sue the mother for child support? Does the rapist have a right to demand visitation with the child of his victim?

The last thing I want to ask questions about in your statement is "and children with unknown fathers can be put into foster care rather than placed immediately while the state waits around to see if any "issues" surface." Do you care to expand on this statement? How long will the children languish in foster care before a permanent home will be found for them? Who will be responsible for the payments to the state? Here, at least, when a child is placed in foster care the parents are required to pay "child support" to the state. Do you suggest that a women who, otherwise, wants nothing to do with her child be forced to pay child support in order for the child to languish in a state run house instead of allowing that woman to make the decision to place her child in an adoptive home?

When I said the comment was on a website for adoptive parents, I meant that the comment was on a website for adoptive parents, not that it was my personal opinion that I pulled out of my ass. The quote has been changed since first published (possbily due to outrage from raped women), but is still repulsive: "It isn't uncommon for a birthmother to say that she was raped, when it would have been difficult for her to tell her parents that she was pregnant. Say, "It appears as though she felt she was forced," or similar words to suggest that you don't know for sure. - See more at: adoptivefamilies.com/articles.php?aid=1817#sthash.nUQCb8ZP.dpuf

Yeah, of course I suggest that children languish in state-run houses, certainly what I wished for my child who was conceived in rape (not).

Now please go away and leave me alone.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Honestly, I absolutely hate this type of framing. Parents should never have rights to children, and nobody should have a right to have a child. The only thing that should matter is the rights of the child. It's thinking like this that leads to infertile couples feeling entitled to babies and feeling that other women have an obligation to provide them. It's this line of thought that makes our society so prone to look the other way on child abuse and so unwilling to say anything negative about parents who hit their children. Everything is framed as the rights of adults in relation to children, when it should be the exact opposite.

Now, how to address that is a completely separate issue and it shouldn't be easy to forgo notifying the biological father. But that's not because of his right to have that child; it's because it is frequently in the best interest of the child to be raised by a biological father (especially when the alternative is so frequently temporary foster care or an institution). I'm sure we're aligned on most of the goals, but the focus needs to be on the child, not the parents, adoptive or biological, rapist or not.

This, 100000x this. I want to shout it from the rooftops. I'm so tired of "parental rights" being invoked to excuse all sorts of abuse and neglect. The framing around parenting, at least in the States, seems to assume not only that children are possessions, but that each family lives in some sort of bubble and that the child will stay a child forever. So, if you want to bring up your kids to believe that it's the year 1200 and the Earth is flat, hey, that's your "right". We need a major overhaul of public opinion and policy on this, to reflect the reality that the best interests of the CHILD as an individual being are what is most important.