The truth about "modesty" dawns

[martian]

I'm reading into the comments on the survey, too, and one of the things I find really disturbing is the complete assurance with which even male *children* are commenting on how women should dress to best accommodate them. And even with the rare, reasonable sounding prospective patriarch, there is still that underlying conviction that it's up to them, they have the say. They are saturated with male entitlement, even the "good" ones.

And the older men, feh, what can you say. Misogynistic creepers, every last one of them.

Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Maddening and depressing, both.

[ari_belle]

I'd love to see men deal with having big breasts. They would shut their mouths after one day, that's for sure.

[Effie]

Oh I remember this blog. I think she is awesome. If I remember correctly, she used to be fundie-lite...

[Effie]

Also, is it only me, or does anyone else find the constant refrain of "ask your dad/brothers if an outfit is immodest or not" really weird?

My dad is my dad. He's not the guardian of my sex appeal (such as it is) and neither are my brothers. What you're essentially asking them there is "If we weren't related, would you think about having sex with me when you see me wearing this outfit"? I don't know about fundies, but that is certainly not a question I'd like to ask my relatives :pink-shock: and I don't think they'd appreciate me asking such a question.

Once we - FJers, snarked on a youtube video about modesty, where the guy took the whole "ask your dad"-thing even further. He said: "If you wouldn't see your dad wearing it, then don't wear it." :? I think he meant that women should cover their bodies with big over-size clothes... I just hope that the women, who would listen to that guy, have fabulous drag queen dads. Not very likely though.

[JesusFightClub]

LOL :pink-shock:

I...have never seen my dad wear women's clothing. Ever. Except that one time when he tried to put on my mum's jeans by mistake, and I don't think that counts as wearing, as he couldn't get them past his knees.

Do I have to forswear women's clothing and dress like a bloke forevermore? And, how many men wear frumpers? :cray-cray:

[Childless]

I threw myself into the modesty movement as teen. I fell for the BS that the poor menz just couldn't help themselves and I had to cover up to stop them from tripping up on their spiritual journey~. Heh.

Then I started reading about feminism and the main theme I was noticing was that such expectations on women's clothing were just ways to keep women the lesser sex. It was suddenly their responsibility because men couldn't control themselves? That's bullshit. I take responsibility for myself, and men are certainly capable of doing the same.

I find it odd that feminism treats men as adults who are capable of controlling their own emotions and desires and expects them to act like gentlemen with regards to others around them while fundamentalism treats men as infants who cannot control themselves without the help of everyone else on the planet. Which philosophy do you think respects men more and offers the better path toward being a productive adult capable of raising a family? Certainly not the one that purports the ultimate goal of creating manly men who will be the head of a household.

Of course, fundies rarely take responsibility for anything, so this shouldn't surprise me.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Oh wow, an adolescent boy giving BRA ADVICE. Now I really have seen it all.

I refuse to wear a goddamn binding device and layers upon layers of fabric just because I'm on the larger-busted side. Especially in the summer. It's getting hot here, and I'll wear a tanktop and shorts if I damn well want to.

[Mice]

One particular gem stuck out at me:

An overwhelming 76.5% agreed. And that just really ticks me off. I've been a 38D since I was a teenager. It was the bane of my existence because so many guys ogled me ALL THE TIME. My chest has always bounced, I mean, hello! What was I supposed to do? Stand still and never move?

I do believe that yes - that is exactly what you are supposed to do.

You could also paint all the windows in your home black and then not leave it. Unless you have boy children, then when you are performing male-sanctioned activities in your house which may require movement, you'll need to don some sort of modest attire. Perhaps a moderately sized bouncy house with room for your gloved hands to peek out.

[Nerthe]

I once asked my boyfriend if he thinks that skirts (even long skirts) are more sexy than a normal pair of jeans and he totally agreed and he likes me wearing skirts because he thinks it is sexy...

The only exception are the long denim skirts..

I don't really understand why fundies think that skirts are more modest than pants.

And on the survey page is a question about reaching under the shirt to adjust the bra strap... I think I would die if I couldn't do that from time to time.. They slip pretty often down my shoulders. :D

[JesusFightClub]

I once asked my boyfriend if he thinks that skirts (even long skirts) are more sexy than a normal pair of jeans and he totally agreed and he likes me wearing skirts because he thinks it is sexy...

The only exception are the long denim skirts..

I don't really understand why fundies think that skirts are more modest than pants.

And on the survey page is a question about reaching under the shirt to adjust the bra strap... I think I would die if I couldn't do that from time to time.. They slip pretty often down my shoulders. :D

Totally. And in a past life ;) I was a checkout girl in Marks and Spencers and I was having a bad bra day. It was a front fastening bra and the front fastening went. I'm a 38C cup, you can imagine how good that looked in a flimsy shirt.

And I tried in vain to adjust myself. It wasn't happening because the fastening wasn't able to hold a hook. There was no option to "ignore it and wait for a moment to slip away and adjust it". There isn't if you work 7 hours non-stop on a till.

Men really do not get this stuff. Same with the "bouncing boobs".

[Many_Spaynes]

And on the survey page is a question about reaching under the shirt to adjust the bra strap... I think I would die if I couldn't do that from time to time.. They slip pretty often down my shoulders. :D

Obviously you must blanket train your bra. Put a blanket under the strap -- yes it's uncomfortable & unwieldy, but modesty should never be fun. Every time your strap slips, hit it with a wooden spoon. In just a few days you'll have an obedient bra strap -- & a very bruised shoulder & possibly a bed on a psych ward but isn't that where most of this stuff leads anyway?

[MrsYoungie]

All these "modesty" rules make me feel stabby. (love that word)

Cultures that can't or won't control their men try to control (and blame) their women. If they would just be honest about it. Young boys have "feelings" when they see a girl's cleavage? Well they also have "feelings" when they see just about anything! Truth is, they need to learn to control themselves rather than their sisters, wives, random strangers.

My favourite poster listed rules for avoiding rape. They all boiled down to "If you see a women - Don't Rape Her!!!!

[Effie]

LOL :pink-shock:

I...have never seen my dad wear women's clothing. Ever. Except that one time when he tried to put on my mum's jeans by mistake, and I don't think that counts as wearing, as he couldn't get them past his knees.

Do I have to forswear women's clothing and dress like a bloke forevermore? And, how many men wear frumpers? :cray-cray:

Well, I think you have the approval of those fundies. I found the video, although it seems unavailable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... UskY61DmAY Anyway, here's the exact quote:"If you wouldn't want to see your dad wearing what you are wearing, then it's probably a good idea not to wear it - of course your dad would never use girls' clothes." :cray-cray: I don't know with those people. So, my dad would never use girls' clothes and I'm not supposed to wear something that I wouldn't want to see my dad wear.

I find it odd that feminism treats men as adults who are capable of controlling their own emotions and desires and expects them to act like gentlemen with regards to others around them while fundamentalism treats men as infants who cannot control themselves without the help of everyone else on the planet. Which philosophy do you think respects men more and offers the better path toward being a productive adult capable of raising a family? Certainly not the one that purports the ultimate goal of creating manly men who will be the head of a household.

Of course, fundies rarely take responsibility for anything, so this shouldn't surprise me.

That last sentence really sums fundiedom up. That's what it's all about, isn't it? Fundie women give up their freedom, cause they can't handle the responsibilities which comes with it. Freedom is never free in that sense. In one way, it does make sense to give it up. It could be "freeing" even.

[debrand]

On the modesty survey there was a question about women wearing purses over their shoulder and head so that the strap ends up between there breasts. That is a big no-no too.

This is one of the most frightening parts of the Rebelution Survey. I just picked a few of the first responses to the question

therebelution.com/modestysurvey/browse

How do you feel about girls who purposely flaunt their bodies?

It is hard for me to respect them. I love them, and pray that God might save them, if they are lost, and sanctify those whom He has called, but I do have a sense of dislike toward them because of how hard they make life for me. Our lives are to be lived in a way that glorifies God, that is in no way glorifying Him or making me better able to glorify Him.

Age 21

Ladies, this is where you can get confused. Many women would think guys are 'all about' women who flaunt their bodies. I am here to attempt to speak for us Christian men fighting the fight for purity. Women like this disgust and frustrate me. They take advantage of something that God intended to be beautiful. They lure men away from that which they truly love. They make men like me fight and struggle, and cause many to fall. THESE WOMEN SHOULD NOT BE ADORED OR FOLLOWED! Christian sisters, please do not think that this attention is anything more than a result of short-sighted shallow men who are sexually frustrated and unwilling to follow God's plan for sex. To me, women who flaunt their bodies make me turn my head, repulsed, and pray that God would guard my heart, eyes, and mind, and that somehow He would show them His infinite love, and that they don't need to act in this way to be loved.

Age 22

Saddened; disappointed; sometimes angered. They're distracting good men, dishonoring God and marriage, and offering themselves cheaply--which makes me desire even more strongly a girl who is modest, who is valuable. I would be disingenuous if I didn't concede that these kinds of girls are a temptation. But I always remind myself that if a girl flaunts herself before I marry her, she'll do the same thing afterward. As a husband, that would make me pretty mad.What would make me happy is dedicating all my energy to loving a young woman who reserves herself for me.

[AuntCloud]

So a two- year old is expected to not touch a gun and these dingbats don't believe in child-proofing as toddlers are expected to have endless self-control, but a grown-ass man needs to be protected from evil elbows? My head hurts, I need to lie down now.

[ari_belle]

Whoever took this survey had WAY too much f*cking time on their hands. SODRT obviously doesn't keep these kids busy, so they might as well take a couple hours to imagine girls in different clothes...you know, for the benefit of the WOMEN. Also, I'd like to point out how the survey people claim that none of this has an authoritative tone, but the comments so obviously do. I see so many of these comments with the words "don't" and "no."

Allow me to share some of my favorites, with commentary:

My friend wore shorts on top of her one-piece when we went swimming in the pool last summer. I could not even begin to thank her for the consideration she showed by wearing a pair of shorts over her swimsuit. It was the greatest things she could do to help me keep my mind out of where it shouldn't have been.

Wow, I'm so glad she did something so noble JUST FOR YOU!

Yes, a bit. I love it when a lady places her hand behind her to cover her lower back. I think that is so thoughtful!

This is about when a woman accidentally exposes her lower back when reaching for something. Yes, how thoughtful! She's doing that just for you, a-hole!

It does not necessarily mean that I would imply immodesty upon that person, because such breaches are usually 'accidental' and I would avert my eyes. But don't think it's ok to keep on doing it carelessly.

Also about exposing lower back. Ladies, don't think it's ok!

No surpise here, I hope. I've been told by non-Christian friends that 'chivalry died when the miniskirt was birthed.' I'd tend to agree.

Oh, woe is he, chivalry is dead because women can't cover themselves up.

When a bra or underwear outline is visible, it allows the guys imagination to take over much better as well as give a reference for breast size and underwear style of the girl.

:angry-banghead:

If you walk like an advertisement, you're advertising.

Five words: "she was asking for it."

They are often a symptom of girls trying to attract guys with their bodies under the guise of modesty. Check your hearts.

About see-through sleeves. Check your farts ;)

They do draw attention to the ladies front, especially her bust. If they are worn with other things that flaunt the same area, it is extremely dangerous and stumbling.

I guess no necklaces that create a "V," because BOOBIES.

Again, this is one of those things I just find unattractive rather than immodest, but since the goal of modesty is to not draw a lot of attention to yourself, heavy perfume goes against that goal.

This is about heavy perfume. So, hold up...when did this become a survey about what's sexy to you? Oh, right...you took this survey so you could imagine girls and women in a sexual way. This man is 40-49 years old, btw.

This can depend on what you are wearing or how heavy the purse is. Just having the strap there is not a big deal, but if it pulls on the shirt it could be unhelpful. Just try to be conscientious.

This is about purses that are worn across the body. My physical therapist told me to only to wear my purse like this. It's better for your back and neck. Just...what dumbasses...

This I have thought about many times, wondering if it were the shoe that did it, or the wearer, or a combination of both. I believe it is mostly the design of the shoe.

About whether high heels make a girl walk immodestly. How nice to know that this 17-y-o thinks about this all the time.

Pretending to be a girl: "Hmmm... Let's think. It's tight on the tummy, clingy on the top, starts about an inch from my breasts, and often comes in bright neon colors that instantly draw the eyes to my tummy and chest. It's perfect!" For defrauding guys, yes, it is. An absolute no!

Tube tops. I guess this 16-y-o has the authority to tell me that it's an "absolute no." Honey, most women who wear these are older than you, and they don't give a sh*t that you're a horny teenager.

[auntsally28]

Ah the poor menz.....they are slaves to their hormones.

[SpeakNow]

I went to the actual survey because I could not believe such a thing actually existed :shock:

One particular gem stuck out at me:

An overwhelming 76.5% agreed. And that just really ticks me off. I've been a 38D since I was a teenager. It was the bane of my existence because so many guys ogled me ALL THE TIME. My chest has always bounced, I mean, hello! What was I supposed to do? Stand still and never move?

But, one of the commenters on the survey - a wise chap of 16 years has the solution:

Thanks sonny. I am SO grateful for your input. Of course my problem wasn't that I was well endowed. It was the bra! I was looking for the attention! FFS - I can't even write coherently I am so disturbed. :angry-banghead:

[JesusFightClub]

I'm not being funny, but honestly, how disturbing must it be to think every man is almost prostrated by lust at even a teeny glimpse of your flesh?

I don't think I am particularly attractive. I shave my head so you're faced with a baldy woman with two plaits and a wrap for hair. Even with long hair I wasn't winning any prizes for sexxayness. I'm an old-fashioned punk and a commie. I dress accordingly.

I'm a bit overweight, I'm past 30 and I was never very cute even when I was 20. Such is life. I like to hope I am a nice person and not a cunt. That's as much as you get. For hotness, look elsewhere.

Really and honestly doubt I am causing men to double over with longing when they notice I have a pair of tits. The idea I have SOOPER LUST POWAAAA is utterly ridiculous. Fucking hell, seriously.

All I can think is that fundie men are like starved dogs, even a bit of flesh and they're whining and barking and straining at the leash. Which is very sad for them, but not women's responsibility.

[RosyDaisy]

You know what we as women should do? Give men a taste of their own medicine. Let's start preaching about how they need to cover up their 6-pack abs and wear baggy pants that don't emphasize their man parts so they don't "defraud" the ladies. Oh, and let's not forget to add some cat-calls. Let's see how long they would like it. I'm sure at first they would love it, but if happens over and over again, combined with indoctrination that we women can't control ourselves, it would piss them off as much as it does us. They deserve it after all of the misogynistic things they say and do to us.

Not that I would really do this, it's just that all of this female modesty rhetoric pisses me off. How can men not be disgusted by the fact that they are perceived to not have any self control. That puts them in the same category as animals.

[Many_Spaynes]

I can't help thinking that for a bunch of these modesty posters the survey is a fundie version of Penthouse Forum. I picture all these isolated misfits one-handedly typing their pathetic fantasies. Instead of "Dear Penthouse Forum, I never believed this would happen to me . . . twins . . . sex, etc," they're writing their sad little wishes for defraudment (defraudation? defrauditude?)

[Twin_Mom]

Make sure you don't wear sandals either. Some guys are aroused by feet....

[uber frau]

Or even closed toe shoes that are too low cut. Toe cleavage gets those men every time.

[turquoise]

And here lies the way to burkhas and niqabs.

They still won't be enough. Here's an article from a few years ago talking about how harassment of women in Egypt has actually increased as more women wear the traditional coverings.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2008 ... harassment

[AllisonWndrland]

Oh, for fuck's sake. I guess I should thank god that my male supervisor is able to restrain himself from attacking myself and the two other females on our team. We're all three pretty darn curvy and wear tops that don't cover us to the neck, above-the-knee skirts, and even tank tops. We wear high heels and sandals to work all the time, too. Going by the idiot males commenting on the survey, the three of us have defrauded him every.single.day for the past 18 months.

I get really tired of the fundamentalist argument that as a woman, I am responsible for ensuring that a man doesn't have sexual thoughts about my body. Unless I'm voluntarily getting naked with a man or somehow clearly indicating that I am into having sex with him, I'm not responsible for his sexy thoughts. :disgust: