Number of Godly Women vs Godly Men - Duggar comment

[mythoughtis]

Jim Bob said in the 'dating' episode that there were a lot of Godly women vs fewer Godly men.... and then encouraged JD to hold a seminar on men being Godly.

 

Why do you supposed there are more Godly women than men? Is it because some Gothard men actually wake up someday and realize they want a partner not a child like wife? Is it because some Gothard men want a sexy wife rather than a frump?

 

Or is that most 20-30 year old men need to work for a living and cant be attending 1400 ATI conferences watching adult women act like 20 year old nannies?

 

What is causing the imbalance in the numbers?

[debrand]

I don't think that there are less Godly men then women but I do think that most men don't want dolls for wives. Also, most guys who have any backbone don't want to have to jump through hoops to court a woman who may or may not even like them. My guess is that fundie boys marry girls from less strict families because its easier to get to know them.

[O Latin]

Isn't this just sort of a Duggar/fundie version of the often expressed sentiment that all the good ones are taken or all single guys are jerks or whatever? I think it's just fundie-speak for "I don't know how I'm ever going to find someone good enough."

[moreorlessnu]

Aside from the Arndts, (and maybe the Wilsons?) don't most of these families have more daughters than sons?

Are there the same restrictions placed on the guys as on the girls? Is the guy supposed to go to their father when the guy starts having feelings for a particular young lady? Are the guys free to pursue a slightly less fundie girl (like the Maxwell guy who married Melanie)?

The girl's only option is to wait for a guy to approach their father. Is the guy's only option to find a fundie, or can they pursue a non fundie, or a less-than-fundie girl if they met one they liked?

[bananacat]

A couple of things:

1) I think QF families skew more towards daughters because families that are front-loaded with a lot of sons are more likely to be overwhelmed with work and drop out of the lifestyle, since boys are not expected to contribute the way girls are. If all the Duggar sexes had been reversed and there weren't as many girls around to housework, things might have turned out differently. And families where the boys do "women's work" out of necessity probably won't end up quit as fundie.

2) Boys can marry fundie girls who are slightly less strict than the boy's family, because he'll be in charge and can make her more fundie. He'll impress her dad by being more fundie, and his own dad won't forbid him from marrying a certain girl as long as her hymen is still in tact and she wears long skirts. But since husbands (allegedly) have all the power, a fundie dad can't give away his daughter to a man who is even slightly less strict than he is. His sons can court in both directions (still within a very narrow window), but daughters can only court in one direction - more fundie. So that skews things.

[Rosa]

Boys have more opportunity to get the fuck out. The kinds of jobs they are allowed to have pay a lot better than what the girls are allowed to do.

Plus, how often do girls fail out of "homemaker PhD"? But a boy who can't make money can't get married, Daddy would never allow it. A lot of boys who graduate from the SOTDRT have to fail at starting a business that can support a giant family. That's a huge barrier - easier to find a girl with a job and enjoy your sudden freedom if you can make it over the fence.

And what Bananacat said. It would be interesting to see how many "we had 4 boys in 4 years!" families stick with ATI, vs. the "we have lots of girls and finally a little boy!" Or better yet, the ones with a convenient older first child, then a nice gap, then Mommy marries Mr. Fundie and has a built-in helper with the flood of babies.

[Petals]

I think Jim-Bob holds with the fundie idea that women are naturally pure and moral, whereas men have uncontrollable sexualities. Sexual desire is supposed to be absent in fundie women; "lust" is seen as a male problem. And since Jim-Bob is a man, and has sexual desire, it is easier for him to pretend that women do not (especially when it comes to his daughters).

[HowRude]

I do agree that there are fewer God-minded men. Walk into any church more women than men.Then you have the whole thing of converting which means admitting you're somewhat wrong which men have problems with. Then you get into the Duggar realm of Godly. First off nowadays you're lucky to find a guy who wants to settle down at all let alone produce 20 zillion kids. Then you have the whole no physicality business, its so hard to find a guy who wants to wait for sex let alone kissing. Then guys are visual people they don't only want to see your counternance.

[Deleted12]

So many interesting thoughts in this thread.

I think it might be easier to convince a woman that she needs to be a follower and adapt to his needs than convince a man that he needs to give up his youth and have babies when he's 20.

[Shirley MacLaine]

I do agree that there are fewer God-minded men. Walk into any church more women than men.

I've always wondered about conservative church leaders talking about this in light of their belief that women are generally more easily deceived.

[apple1]

To me, this is just JB-speak for what I call "ye olde double standard".

Generally in society (yes, there are exceptions), a more laissez-faire attitude is taken toward the acceptance of "unacceptable" behaviors by males, as opposed to their unacceptability in females.

[Rachel333]

This idea became popular around the 18th-century, and followed the medieval "women are evil" theory. It was sort of used to justify the whole cult of domesticity stuff. I suppose women are typically more devout, but it seems like people always use it to support their sexist bs. I've seen it used to justify the LDS priesthood only being given to men, for example. "Men need it more because women are naturally more spiritual." Seriously

[dawbs]

Boys have more opportunity to get the fuck out. The kinds of jobs they are allowed to have pay a lot better than what the girls are allowed to do.

This is where my mind went.

I have to say, sexism and culture being what they are, w/o an education, there are VERY few jobs I'd be fit for that I'd have a chance of getting in the 'good ol' boy' network I grew up in. So I'd have either had to get married or stay w/ my parents indefinitely.

But boys my age, w/ the same skill sets (and a bit more muscle) could have at least kept body and soul together w/ whatever job they could find. (that and theyr'e encouraged to go get that job, which exposes them to other people and other ways of thinking which leads them to ask questions which leads them 'astray')

[MamaJunebug]

And my mind went to, "Well, if this isn't a precursor to 'God told me it's okay to take multiple wives.'"

I mean, fewer godly men, more godly women ... what's the obvious answer??

It's not only a double-standard, it's a double-bind.

Woman, you are closer to God than man is.

Therefore it's up to you to live spiritually, with forgiveness, forebearing, etc.

Now, since you are more easily deceived, like your mother Eve, you cannot lead.

Your unspiritual, unGodly man is to lead.

And we've all seen where that can wind up.

Jimbob is: a master marketer, heir to the throne of Mr. Haney from Green Acres (acted dumb, smart as a fox).

Jimbob is not: a theologian. Of any kind.

[liltwinstar]

I'm also thinking that families with daughters are going to be more drawn to fundie lifestyles to begin with, since some parents seem to want to protect their daughters more than they do their sons. This is why (in my opinion) there are purity balls for girls but not for boys - somehow, girls/daughters have to be protected, while boys are sort of left to fend for themselves.

Also, as others have said, it's way easier for boys to leave the movement - they can get decent-paying jobs in construction or whatever at 18, while 18 year old fundie girls can't do that as easily.

Finally, fundie boys "pass" more easily in society than fundie girls. A boy/youngish man in a polo shirt and pants? He just looks like every other guy who works a "business casual" job. A fundie girl in a frumper and headscarf would be lucky if she could get a job in a health food store or as a nanny. So, women leaving the fundie lifestyle often have to go through an image update in a way that most men don't (they can if they want to - say if they want to grow a beard or something - but they don't have to in order to pass for normal).

[liltwinstar]

I should also add that fundie boys are respected more than fundie girls. There seems to be the expectation that girls will put on a purity show when they get married - the big websites, the princess thing, lots of posts/pics on their blogs, their parents' blogs, the friends' blogs - while boys get whatever want. We saw this with the Botkin weddings - the Ben Botkin wedding was quite private and people respected that. The David Botkin wedding was odd (in my opinion), but people seemed to respect that it's what David wanted. We see this with the Maxwells too - they don't really talk about their adult sons and daughters-in-law much. Their privacy is respected. However, fundie girls' privacy is not respected - there are posts about what the daughters wear, about how they're expected to behave, about their birth experiences, etc etc. Girls are public/community property in a way that the boys are not.

(I think this is true in mainstream society, too, but to a lesser degree than in fundie society)

[GenerationCedarchip]

Boys have more opportunity to get the fuck out. The kinds of jobs they are allowed to have pay a lot better than what the girls are allowed to do.

Plus, how often do girls fail out of "homemaker PhD"? But a boy who can't make money can't get married, Daddy would never allow it. A lot of boys who graduate from the SOTDRT have to fail at starting a business that can support a giant family. That's a huge barrier - easier to find a girl with a job and enjoy your sudden freedom if you can make it over the fence.

And what Bananacat said. It would be interesting to see how many "we had 4 boys in 4 years!" families stick with ATI, vs. the "we have lots of girls and finally a little boy!" Or better yet, the ones with a convenient older first child, then a nice gap, then Mommy marries Mr. Fundie and has a built-in helper with the flood of babies.

Ding ding ding! Much of a fundie woman's status centers on whether her husband is a good provider (both of money and of getting her pregnant all the time). You can't test the first before marriage, but you better believe they test the second.

When you combine that with the statistics tending to show that fewer men than women are regular church attenders in pretty much any denomination, the pool of men for the fundie women is mighty small. When I was still in the fundie church, I remember that there were quite a few of us in our late teens/early 20s. However, when you looked at the guys, once you weeded out the ones who were planning to run for the hills and the ones who didn't seem to have much going for them, you were left with 20+ young women angling for fewer than 10 viable husband options that would be parent and elder-approved.

[Rosa]

Cedarchips, a few years ago I was at a fundy-lite wedding (coworker) where the bridesmaid made a little speech that was basically "TimBob was the first man who joined our Young Adult Bible Study in 3 years! We all had crushes on him. But JudyAnne got him! She's so lucky, he's awesome, we're all very very happy for them! Too bad he doesn't have a brother!"

And I have a Baptist friend who spoiled her whole pool by dating the music leader for several years; she only will date born-again men, there aren't many single in their early 30s, and the whole congregation sees her as off-limits.

It's a really terrible imbalance. I understand why young single guys don't go all-out fundy, but a reasonable young men of moderate prospects would be fighting them off in the fundy-light churches.

[deelaem]

So many interesting thoughts in this thread.

I think it might be easier to convince a woman that she needs to be a follower and adapt to his needs than convince a man that he needs to give up his youth and have babies when he's 20.

Agreed. Also, men don't like to be held responsible for their behavior by anyone.