"You Deserve Rape."

[the 4th survivor]

Should women act responsibly? Yes.

Should men act responsibly? Yes.

What? You're advocating rape by saying women should act responsibly! Just ask everyone here, they'll tell you.

However, for one of these groups, far too many people think that rape is an appropriate consequence for doing something stupid.

Did I advise the young women (military trainees) I was responsible for to take basic precautions? You bet. But no one deserves to get raped because they failed to take precautions.

Women do not cause rape. We are not responsible for being raped. Rapists are responsible for raping.

Nobody deserves rape as I said, but the reality is there are bad people out there and you can do things to lower your chances of being a victim. That applies to just about every crime.

[Anxious Girl]

What? You're advocating rape by saying women should act responsibly! Just ask everyone here, they'll tell you.

Nobody deserves rape as I said, but the reality is there are bad people out there and you can do things to lower your chances of being a victim. That applies to just about every crime.

She's not advocating rape. She's saying that both men and wome shouldn't rape. Use better reading comprehension. Go back to the Tasmanian Abortion thread; asshat. Real debators answer ALL questions asked of them. You're not a real debator because you skip questions you don't want to answer.

[Anny Nym]

Regardless of the circumstances nobody ever deserves to be raped but I do think some women need to take more responsibility for their actions. I was just reading a story about how this teenage girl was raped at a party after she got drunk and passed out. Of course she didn't deserve it but her actions were beyond stupid. Think of it this way, if I was walking through a bad neighborhood at night with a few grand on me and got robbed, yeah I'd still be a victim but I'd be an idiot for doing that wouldn't I? By the way I know most rape victims are just minding their own business and I'm only talking about certain situations.

Oh, and the kid holding the sign is a scumbag but that goes without saying.

I´m getting into this thread a lil´late probably, but I just HAVE to ask: If someone has a ski - accident ( a thing we do for leisure, like partying), went into a coma (aka has also no power over her/his body this moment) and then gets raped by the hospital staff, would you also say "... I'd be an idiot for doing that ...(regarding to the victim)?" or "...actions were beyond stupid." ?

And whats about people who fell asleep on the beach and get raped? Or who sleep with half-open windows? Or on a camping side?

Also, with such ..."arguments"... like yours, you categorize rapists and robbers not as humans who committed a crime out of their own will and should hold fully responsible therefor but as some kind of subhuman creatures who could therefor NOT be hold responsible for their actions.

And even worse, because the girl definitely didn´t went to the Annual Rapists Convention and someone who got robbed in a "bad neighborhood" definitely didn´t walk through some kind of special marked Terry Pratchettesque Thives Guild zone, people like you are actually calling ALL young men, who attend parties, rape-ready and all people who live in bad neighborhoods robbers.

And that´s misogynic and misandric at the same time.

[Salamander]

Um, did you miss the part where I said "nobody under any circumstances deserves to be raped"? It's not about victim blaming.

Victim blaming means holding the victims partially or fully responsible for what has been done to them. By saying that "some women need to take more responsibility for their actions," you're implying that had they not done certain things, they might not have become victims of rape. That's textbook victim blaming.

You live in a fantasy world. The reality is there are rapists out there and getting drunk to the point of unconsciousness at a party is putting yourself at risk. I agree that you shouldn't have to worry about that sort of thing, but you do because that is the society we live in and it's unlikely to change any time soon. You shouldn't have to worry about being mugged or killed if I walk through a bad neighborhood at night but you do. That's part of life.

Being a woman is an inherent risk in this society. Some women take all kinds of precautions to negate that risk. They don't drink and rarely or never go out. Some don't date for fear of being assaulted. That doesn't stop some of them from becoming victims of rape at the hands of their relatives, acquaintances, or a home intruder. Likewise, lots of women do go out, get plastered, and never become victims. For people who are raped, it doesn't matter what they're wearing, where they were, or whether they were alone. The only thing all rape victims have in common is the presence of a rapist at the time they were attacked.

Saying someone needs to "take responsibility for their actions" implies that they've done something wrong, that if they'd done something differently they wouldn't have been victimized. But there's no way for people to know if what they're doing prevents them from being raped because they don't know who the rapists are around them, and they can't read the rapists' minds anyway. And women may take measures they think are preventative, like not going out, only to become a victim because a person they trust at home rapes them. Because the only thing all rape victims have in common is the presence of a rapist at the time they were attacked.

And in the drunk-at-a-party situation? If one woman stays sober and thus avoids being raped (if there's a way to know that's why she wasn't raped, which there isn't), a rapist, being a predator, will just pick another target. If it isn't one woman, it'll be someone else. Her "taking responsibility for [her] actions" doesn't stop a rapist from assaulting another victim. It doesn't solve the problem, which is that rapists rape people, namely those they have identified as vulnerable for whatever reason, including ones that aren't regularly hauled out to blame victims, like being in a relationship with someone you trust(ed) who turns out to be a rapist. None of us are invulnerable. Focusing on what the victim did wrong or could've done differently or "I'd never do that look how speshul I am, much more speshul than a woman who thought she had the right to go out and enjoy herself at a party" just moves the focus away from where it should be, which is squarely on the perpetrator of the crime. The criminal. The rapist.

Your rationale is internally inconsistent in another way. You say nobody deserves to be raped...but I guess if someone passes out at a party and get raped, well, sucks for her, shouldn't have had that last shot, or something. You're setting up a hierarchy of victims where the "rape victims [who] are just minding their own business" (the fuck does that even mean?) deserve your sympathy, but the ones who dare to go out and have some alcohol - their legal right, by the way - and become the victims of the criminal actions of a rapist are just, what? Casualties? Unimportant?

Absolutely right, however you can't control the actions of other people, only your own. While most rapes and crime in general probably can't be prevented, you can do things to reduce your risk of being a victim. That is the point. It's not about blaming the victim.

If you probably can't prevent the crime, what's the point of trying to reduce your risk of being a victim? :confusion-scratchheadyellow:

Respond to some of the other posts on this thread. Alternatively, head back over to the thread on abortion in Tasmania. People are waiting for you. :twisted:

[Angharad Crewe]

And in the drunk-at-a-party situation? If one woman stays sober and thus avoids being raped (if there's a way to know that's why she wasn't raped, which there isn't), a rapist, being a predator, will just pick another target. If it isn't one woman, it'll be someone else. Her "taking responsibility for [her] actions" doesn't stop a rapist from assaulting another victim. It doesn't solve the problem, which is that rapists rape people, namely those they have identified as vulnerable for whatever reason, including ones that aren't regularly hauled out to blame victims, like being in a relationship with someone you trust(ed) who turns out to be a rapist. None of us are invulnerable. Focusing on what the victim did wrong or could've done differently or "I'd never do that look how speshul I am, much more speshul than a woman who thought she had the right to go out and enjoy herself at a party" just moves the focus away from where it should be, which is squarely on the perpetrator of the crime. The criminal. The rapist.

As a society we focus way too much on analyzing the actions of the victim and not enough on dealing with the perpetrator. It's outrageous how a rapists can explicitly confess committing a crime and have no repercussions.

That said, in college I didn't get really drunk to the point of passing out, because I knew several of my friends had been assaulted/raped after passing out from drinking. Not getting wasted at a party isn't about me thinking I'm better and smarter than my friends, it's about protecting myself from being taken advantage of when I am not even conscious to try and stop it.

[Peppercorn]

Thanks to Salamander and others for taking the time to explain the obvious to the oblivious. I get so tired of hearing the same argument from them, and it always starts with, "Rape is bad, but..."

Sigh.

[AVENues]

So according to his logic he deserves to be beaten up cause he is asking for it?

I'm not going to lie here, I'd shoot him execution style. I'd be shunned from society and in prison forever but this world would become a better place for women.

[AVENues]

Thanks to Salamander and others for taking the time to explain the obvious to the oblivious. I get so tired of hearing the same argument from them, and it always starts with, "Rape is bad, but..."

Sigh.

Yes. There is no "but". There. Is. No. But.