Is the Honeymoon Stage Officially Over?

[luckylassie]

I was reading about Josh and Anna's "courtship" last night and found out that her brother was also married within the same week of J and A. Supposedly, now the brother and his wife are shunned from the Kellers and so is her sister Suze. Maybe Josh and Anna's life is not as perfect as it seemed back when they first got together?

[xReems]

This whole shunning thing stems from, supposedly, the fact that both Daniel and Susanna became too worldy. The Kellers felt like Daniel's wife, Candice, was taking control by "making" him move to SC and not being under the "patriarch umbrella", whereas Susanna, still being young, turned wordly, and shunned her for that as well. Of course, these are all rumors, and we don't know for sure. I don't know how Josh and Anna feel about it. Susanna commented on one of Josh's facebook picture recently, so maybe they're both still on good terms with her.

No family is perfect but TLC is going to create this whole "perfect family, drama free" type of thing. It would not surprise me if the Duggars are having their own problems but are putting a smile on their faces to show everything is good and dandy.

[debrand]

I wouldn't mind the perfect family image so much if the Duggars weren't trying to sell us a harmful lifestyle.

Apparently, the Keller kids still have a lot of affection for their mother. It seems to be the father who is pushing the seperation between the members of his family. This is a good example of why patriarchy is wrong. Papa Keller's feelings trump his wife or other children's opinions. No one should have that type of power.

[tabitha2]

I think Daniel took some pot shots at his mother on FB so that may not necessarily be the whole truth.

[Koala]

I hold the mothers every bit as accountable as the fathers. They are willingly submitting to these men.

[PBrooke]

Well, at some point, the kids have to realize, yes, Dad may be the asshole voice of command, but Mom is the one who follows it. That's never easy for a kid, realizing that the "good" parent isn't perfect either.

[debrand]

You guys are right. Mrs. Keller doesn't have to follow their father. She could choose to not submit.

I am rooting for Daniel and Susanna. I wonder if they know how many people wish them well?

[Childless]

I'm hoping that Daniel and Susanna inspire some of the Duggar kids to escape or, in the very least, start making decisions for themselves. No adult deserves to be under the thumb of their parents. It's not healthy. The job of a parent is to produce self-sufficient and productive adults, not produce adults that can't make their own choices in life and still depend on mommy and daddy to sustain them. Total dependence is not a good thing.

[xReems]

I highly doubt the mother is going to stand up for herself. She's stuck in her old ways and reminds me of those moms who turn the other way when the father is physically abusing their children. The point of being a parent is to teach the kids the differences between right and wrong and the consequences they have to deal with if they choose a certain path. However, once the kids become older, parents have to accept that their children are going to do their own thing and come up with their own beliefs and traditions. I think for the Kellers, they felt that Daniel was losing his "authority" over Candice which I feel like wasn't the case. I know Daniel definitely has some resentments towards his father cos he had a facebook status up that said he wished he was adopted.

This is why some fundie families annoy the hell out of me. Being in a fundie family is like being part of a club: you have to follow the rules, act a certain way, dress a certain way, etc and if you don't, you're kicked out.

I have no idea if any of the Duggar children will escape, especially the older ones right now. Susanna was able to because Rebekah and her family left the movement, so she was able to rely on them and Daniel is married and has a job so that was okay too. The older girls are just volunteering at a fire department and being trained to be a homewife; they would have no place to go so they'd probably end up going home. Unless one of them finds a husband who wants to leave as well, then they can finally escape.

We already know Josh and Anna are the next generation of Jim Boob and Woman with huge vagina.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

I think the Kellers are getting from some of their kids what most of us get between ages 14 and 16--ATTITUDE! Pot shots meant for friends ears that are made just loud enough that Mom/Dad can't help but overhear and the kids feel good about hurting Mom and Dad for daring to say "No you can't" to something.

None of these kids has had a chance to go thru the normal emotional development of testing limits, questioning authority, questioning faith, etc that teenagers and young adults typically go thru. Gothard families FEAR this. They have to no the Emperor Has No Clothes--their beliefs won't stand up to close scrutiny. And, with young children still in the home they feel they have to surpress normal questioning to "protect" the little ones. One of the many flaws of the system.

They forget that ALL who question do not leave! They also forget that the verse says to "Train up a child and WHEN HE IS OLD he will not depart...." OLD--not 16!! God forgives--why can't the parents? They'd lose face in their community, and their little ones might not instantly obey. So very sad.

[lilwriter85]

From what I can tell I think Daniel has left the fundie movement and maybe he and Candice are mainstream Christian types. Rebekah and her husband left Gothard/ATI but are still fundie just a bit less conservative. I think Daniel is clearly the one that is completely shunned some of his FB comments hinted at it. I do hope some of the Duggar kids get inspired by Daniel or Suze.

I think it is great that Rebekah took Susanna under her wing. I agree with xReems, the Duggar girls wouldn't have anywhere to go to. I doubt Deanna or Amy would help them. If they tried, I think Boob would force them to come home. The Duggar girls lack some life skills that are neccesary to make it in the world. Jill, Jana and Jessa have no work experience and I can't see them interviewing well for jobs and I can see them struggling in a workplace. I saw Susanna's google profile and she works in retail, so she is probably learning slowly and I think Rebekah or others probably give her tips.

[lilwriter85]

This whole shunning thing stems from, supposedly, the fact that both Daniel and Susanna became too worldy. The Kellers felt like Daniel's wife, Candice, was taking control by "making" him move to SC and not being under the "patriarch umbrella", whereas Susanna, still being young, turned wordly, and shunned her for that as well. Of course, these are all rumors, and we don't know for sure. I don't know how Josh and Anna feel about it. Susanna commented on one of Josh's facebook picture recently, so maybe they're both still on good terms with her.

No family is perfect but TLC is going to create this whole "perfect family, drama free" type of thing. It would not surprise me if the Duggars are having their own problems but are putting a smile on their faces to show everything is good and dandy.

I think there are problems with the Duggar family but the public will never know about them or we will never know the full extent of the problems the family has had. . There are certain details and some things about the family's history that show that there have been problems with the family. Josh's courtship with Emma Holt shows that were issues possibly going on with him. Also Boob's dad disapproved of the fundie/QF lifestyle at times.

I predict years from now when TLC is out of the picture there will be some rifts in this family for different reasons. I think some of the younger kids will escape. I don't see Smuggar, John, Jessa, Jill or Jana ever escaping.

[xReems]

I think there are problems with the Duggar family but the public will never know about them or we will never know the full extent of the problems the family has had. . There are certain details and some things about the family's history that show that there have been problems with the family. Josh's courtship with Emma Holt shows that were issues possibly going on with him. Also Boob's dad disapproved of the fundie/QF lifestyle at times.

I predict once years from now when TLC is out of the picture there will be some rifts in this family for different reasons. I think some of the younger kids will escape. I don't see Smuggar, John, Jessa, Jill or Jana ever escaping.

This is why some fundie families annoy the hell out of me. They force these beliefs into their children, thinking that all of them will follow every little thing that they have taught them, when in reality, some probably won't. I have never understood fundies shunning their own children because of them becoming too "worldly." Just because some left the movement and want to follow their own thing, doesn't mean they're going to Hell and you have to shun them so you appear good. If these people claim that children are a gift from God, why would God feel okay for you to completely forget about them, just because they're straying away from what they grew up with?

[ChunkyBarbie]

Regarding the Duggars, I think if any problems with the kids were publicized, ie. Jana or Jessa rebelling, the die hard fans would turn against the girls. It would make their lives even harder. I could see crazy stalker fans going after the girls to teach them a lesson and force them to see the error of their ways. The world is full of freaks. JB and Michelle may put on the "everything is perfect" show for themselves and TLC, but I feel it protects the kids.

[bananacat]

Mrs. Keller is probably abused, at least psychologically. So no, she can't just stop being submissive and leave. That's not how abuse works. I don't believe for a second that she is a free-acting agent in that relationship. It's different with some other fundie families where I'm pretty sure the wife is actually in control and pretending to be submissive. But seeing my father abuse my mother, I can often spot abuse from a mile away and Mrs. Keller is a victim as much as her kids are.

[demgirl]

It protects the kids right into having to deny any emotional turmoil or intellectual growth whatsoever. I'm not sure that isn't worse than having to worry about a few crazies. Either way, these kids are screwed and it's all the Duggar parents fault.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Emma Holt shows that were issues possibly going on with him.

We have no real, first hand knowledge of this. IF there was a problem it may have been as stupid as the "incident" in KID FARM. ALL teenage boys would be at risk of punishment in ATI just for being alive. I think it's important to remember though that we don't really know what/if actually happened. He may just not have found her to be "the one" after all..... The guy has a much easier time getting out of a courtship than the girl from what I've seen.

[Childless]

So, if a courtship can be broken, then what makes it better than dating? These people are ridiculous.

[Jinger_Cat]

How did we find out that Suze was shunned from her family? I missed it....

[lilwriter85]

How did we find out that Suze was shunned from her family? I missed it....

On the old FJ, a few people found her Facebook profile which listed that she was living in Texas and she was listening to secular music and there were pictures of her wearing shorts. Also Daniel's profile was found and he had several wall and picture comments that indicated that the wasn't on speaking terms with his family and he made comments about wishing he was adopted and he wanted one of friends to be his new mom. Daniel seems to be completely shunned from the family. There was a user SuzeK or something like that who posted on the old FJ. SuzeK thought we were making fun of her and her boyfriend and this SuzeK said that she and Daniel were disowned by their parents. It's hard to tell if SuzeK was really Susanna.

Susanna is living with one of the older sisters Rebekah who left the ATI/Gothard and she isn't shunned from the family because she and her husband are still conservative.

[xReems]

So, if a courtship can be broken, then what makes it better than dating? These people are ridiculous.

According to the lovely Kelly Bates, courtship involves finding a husband whereas for dating, it is more casual and you're not trying to find a husband. Plus, God is involved in the courtship, so it's okay if it doesn't work out cos technically you weren't giving a piece of your heart away. By God, I mean the dad since he has more input than his own children. I don't know how that makes sense but according to the fundies, it does. Regardless, a courtship didn't work, whether God was involved or not, you gave a piece of your heart away just like people who date does. Redonkulous.

[marmalade]

Gothard/VF "courtship" rules are a steaming pile of crap. A break up is a break up and if you've given away your heart in THEIR world, you'd really be a mess afterward.

Back to the Kellers...Rebekah and her husband are not shunned because Rebekah is following the directives of her headship, who decided to leave ATI. If she fought him, then she would be shunned for not obeying her husband (which would have been front and center in any fundie wedding vows).

Suze is different because as an unmarried young woman, she is still under her father's headship and is going out of her way to rebel against a lot of ATI's teachings, although like her sister, says she remains a conservative Christian. Just one who wears Daisy Dukes and dates a tattooed, pierced cage-wrestler (who also claims to be Christian). I really think that once this one has saved up what she needs to live in her own place, completely on her own terms, she is going to become even more liberal. But as we've seen with anyone who's escaped, she'll need a good lifeline of true friends and family (we'll see where Smuggar and Anna fall if/when either Suze or the brother really "rebel" by voting for Obama or eschewing Christianity, or religion, altogether.

[BlondeAgent007]

I think that a failed courtship would be devastating to both parties. Even if the two young people don't end up especially liking each other, I could definitely see a fundie teen wanting to rush into marriage to get out of the home. Fundie boys - obviously, they get to become their own King of the Castle. The women - well, they are required to submit to their husbands, but they still get a say in how the household is run. They are also authority figures over their children. For both, especially girls, it means way less responsibility around the home. Imagine a Duggar girl getting to care for 2 people instead of 20!