STUPID STUPID QUESTION - Explain Different Sects

[mockingbird]

Actually not really. While liturgically orthodoxy is very traditional, theologically it's less centrally structured and less conservative than Catholicism. Birth control wasn't outlawed for instance nor was divorce.

Oh, thanks! I didn't know that they were ok with birth control and divorce. And I guess their issues with the pope make them more liberal too. I probably should have looked into their beliefs more, I remember a lot of the political stuff from my history classes but even though I have some Orthodox friends I don't know a ton about the details of their beliefs. But I guess Catholic school does not want to teach you about that because if the Orthodox Christians are OK with birth control maybe the Catholics should be too. All I got from our lessons on the East-West Schism in Catholic school were that the Ortodox Christians were tightwads who got hung up about icons, but it's OK now because we're friends and can take communion from each others' churches. :lol:

[Coconut Flan]

A shorthand, easy to remember, although not a full description of Orthodoxy is Catholicism without the additions and protestantism without the subtractions.

[B5SnowDog]

Am I the only heartless one thinking it is annoying for someone to expect us to brief them on "Christianity and all its sects"?

I get that experiential questions or subtleties are great for discussion questions here, but seriously "What is Baptist?" or "What is Episcopalian" or "Who is this Jesus guy people keep referencing?" are things that wikipedia, google, or the like are more appropriate for.

Nope, you're not alone.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Christianity+sects

[clarinetpower]

As for Liturgy, here's an analogy.

High Church liturgy is a pattern, a form. Like a piece of music, say a sonata or a symphony. They are all different, yet follow the same form if you take the time to analyze them. (I'm ELCA Lutheran, and find the patterns very comforting, though theologically I'm very liberal.)

Non high church worship services are more free form, like a Debussy piece. Still a valuable piece of music, but doesn't follow the same patterns as a Mozart Sonata.

[gulag]

And to make it all even more clear - Episcopalian is "liberal Catholic," also known as the only Catholic protestants. Not a lot of difference between Episcopalians and Catholics. At least not to those of us that are ignorant of the details of doctrine. And relative to culture and tradition, of course. This is my experience and what I was taught, but I'm sure there's a handful of Episcopalians and Catholics reading this right now, going, "Well, that's not true at all..."

Same services, same trappings and rituals, same language. Confession is optional. In communities that have no Episcopalian church, you go to the Catholic church. As kids in a very small remote town, we had shared Catechism with a traveling priest.

Why? I dunno.

In the end, it seems that in this generation of organized religion, consistency and a standard has been lost. All these many different denominations of Christians go to generic Bible colleges, apprentice (or whatever its called) and "study" under pastors and preachers of different styles, and then reinvent the wheel. Form their own groups with a different way of doing things and versions of doctrine and theology. Mutations, in essence and form. Based on, but not the same as. And they all tend to label themselves "non-denominational" and "Bible-based." My interpretation of that is that whatever they're pushing, it's of some style, but not really that.

Westboro Baptist Church is a perfect example. They are not Baptist. But they are. But they're not.

Now, Buddhists...they're consistent. :)

[Rosa]

The unaccredited Bible colleges tend to be Baptists of one sort or another (or like you said, "non-denominational" which is the MOST ANNOYING NAME FOR A CHURCH DENOMINATION EVER); and despite their claims, they are not the biggest or the most influential Christian churches in English-speaking areas. For a while they were the fastest-growing (and they might still be in Latin America) but they never acheived biggest.

You can get a divinity degree at an academically accredited college run by almost any other Protestant denomination, and some of the Baptist colleges are accredited as well.

[yewchapel]

And to make it all even more clear - Episcopalian is "liberal Catholic," also known as the only Catholic protestants. Not a lot of difference between Episcopalians and Catholics. At least not to those of us that are ignorant of the details of doctrine. And relative to culture and tradition, of course. This is my experience and what I was taught, but I'm sure there's a handful of Episcopalians and Catholics reading this right now, going, "Well, that's not true at all..."

Same services, same trappings and rituals, same language. Confession is optional. In communities that have no Episcopalian church, you go to the Catholic church. As kids in a very small remote town, we had shared Catechism with a traveling priest.

Why? I dunno.

In the end, it seems that in this generation of organized religion, consistency and a standard has been lost. All these many different denominations of Christians go to generic Bible colleges, apprentice (or whatever its called) and "study" under pastors and preachers of different styles, and then reinvent the wheel. Form their own groups with a different way of doing things and versions of doctrine and theology. Mutations, in essence and form. Based on, but not the same as. And they all tend to label themselves "non-denominational" and "Bible-based." My interpretation of that is that whatever they're pushing, it's of some style, but not really that.

Westboro Baptist Church is a perfect example. They are not Baptist. But they are. But they're not.

Now, Buddhists...they're consistent. :)

There are certainly some more conservative Anglicans in the US, although they are few (and they won't call themselves Episcopalian). But yes Episcopalianism (aka US Anglicanism, and Scottish ones too actually) tends to be uniformly high, whereas there is much more variation in the UK. Also I would be VERY surprised if Orthodox, Catholic or Episcopalian clergy in the US go to generic Bible colleges - they go to seminary, surely (or theological colleges as they are here). Over here at least, Anglicans who are approved for entering ordination (the becoming-a-priest process) have a choice of about 10 specifically Anglican theological colleges, and cannot do their training elsewhere. A couple are joint Anglican-Methodist colleges but UK Methodists work with the Anglican church a lot and often share churches in small communities, so it does make sense. I know UK Catholics have their own seminaries. I don't know about Orthodoxen but I do know some born-and-bred UK-based Orthodox priests (usually converts from Anglicanism or Catholicism) so there must be Orthodox seminaries somewhere.

IMO, 'non-denominational' IS a denomination, albeit one without any central organisation - but everyone tends to believe the same thing, worship the same way, organise their churches the same. In the UK non-denominational churches are relatively uncommon, and if they do exist they tend to be part of a group of churches, eg Vineyard churches. But we are a much smaller country with some very ancient places of worship that still haven't given up - one of the churches in the group my church at uni is in dates back from the 1100s (it is one of only four churches in the UK modelled after the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in the Holy Land), and my church when I'm at my parents' is Saxon.

[Irishy]

This is a really interesting thread. Thanks to the OP for asking the "stupid" question. I'm really enjoying reading the answers.

Chaotic life your post filled me with awe. I take my hat off to you, O knowledgable one.

Yewchapel perhaps you can help me. I always thought the Anglican Church and the Church of England were separate denominations. Here in Ireland we have the church of Ireland and then, a few Anglicans. I knew Anglicanism was closer to Catholicism but the the CofI was distinctly Protestant. Is the CofE similar to the CofI?

[Coconut Flan]

Yes, in the US, Catholics and Orthodox have their own seminaries. There is a vetting process before someone is allowed into the seminary and the diocese that sponsors the future priest actually selects the seminary or has the final say on which seminary he will attend. Most accredited seminaries and theology schools in the US are at least affiliated with a specific denomination or group.

[yewchapel]

This is a really interesting thread. Thanks to the OP for asking the "stupid" question. I'm really enjoying reading the answers.

Chaotic life your post filled me with awe. I take my hat off to you, O knowledgable one.

Yewchapel perhaps you can help me. I always thought the Anglican Church and the Church of England were separate denominations. Here in Ireland we have the church of Ireland and then, a few Anglicans. I knew Anglicanism was closer to Catholicism but the the CofI was distinctly Protestant. Is the CofE similar to the CofI?

The Church of England and Church of Ireland are both Anglican churches, just different area jurisdictions of the same denomination. Anglicanism varies in terms of Catholic emphasis or Protestant emphasis, often according to the other denominations - so the Episcopal Church in the US (which is also an Anglican church) is very Catholic-style in contrast to the other very Protestant denominations, especially in the South. Likewise, the Church of Ireland is very Protestant-style to contrast with the Catholic church in Ireland. The Church in Wales (the Anglican church of Wales, they are disestablished aka not the state church hence them being in not of Wales) tends to be pretty Catholic-style in contrast to Welsh Methodism etc. All of these churches are Anglican churches and part of the same denomination, it's just a denomination which allows for a lot of variety.

[yewchapel]

Yes, in the US, Catholics and Orthodox have their own seminaries. There is a vetting process before someone is allowed into the seminary and the diocese that sponsors the future priest actually selects the seminary or has the final say on which seminary he will attend. Most accredited seminaries and theology schools in the US are at least affiliated with a specific denomination or group.

UK Anglicans have to go through a selection process too, but the Church of England as a whole sponsors the candidate and the candidate has free choice of any of the affilated theological college, because different colleges have different theological emphases.

[kaetrin]

Basic church history ahead (just know it's not perfect and I'm tired so don't assume there's no chance of mistakes):

After Paul, Christianity continued to be persecuted until Constantine. Christians will say that Constintine converted to the religion. Secular scholars say that Constantine was seeking to appease multiple gods as he entered battle. Whatever it was, he won the battle, embraced the religion and made it the official religion of the Roman Empire.

So, the original Church was a structure of the leaders of the main churches setting church policy together. Just after Constantine's conversion, the first major schism occurred. The Coptic Churche of Egypt, India and Ethiopia split from the main Church at the Council of Chaldean around 300CE (the exact date escapes me and I don't feel like looking it up right now).

Around mid-400CE, the great schism occurred. Traditionally, the Church was ruled by the leaders of the main churches, with Roman considered the higher amongst equals. When Constantine split the Empire into Eas and West, there was a split in the Church as well. Starting in the mid-400s and officially fracturing around 1000CE, the main Church split into east and west. The Church in the East continued to be ruled by the Patriarchs, except Rome and became the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Church in the West was ruled by the Patriarch in Rome and became the Catholic Church with the Patriarch leadership as the Pope.

Again, don't hold me to perfection. I literally pulled all of that off the top of my head and I haven't gone and rechecked dates or specific branches of different denominations. The Church is just the universal Church. All of these modern denominations (or non-denominations as often they insist they are) simpy stem from the Protestants that started when Martin Luther hung his these on the church door and pissed a whole bunch of his peers off.

That was amazing. :-)

But I will weigh in on a few historical points here, since I do know a few of them.

Constantine didn't split the Empire into East and West. He actually reunited it under a single emperor (himself) after Diocletian's experiment with dividing it into east and west ruled by two main emperors and two junior emperors, for political and adminstrative reasons (the Tetrarchy). Constantine was very big on the notion of a unified empire and a unified church, both governed from his new imperial capital at Constantinople.

The schism/council you are thinking of is the Council of Chalcedon in 451. The main issue was how to describe the relationship of the divine and human natures in Christ. Everyone agreed that he was both; they just couldn't agree on the correct terminology to use.

As a historian, I also feel obliged to mention that a lot of the splits during this time were aggravated by the political situation: after the 450s, Rome was increasingly isolated from the eastern empire/church because of the "barbarian" invasions and whatnot. Also, after the 8th century or so, all the Eastern patriarchates except Constantinople were under Muslim control.

The more you look at it, the more complicated it gets, so I commend you for that astonishingly concise summary.

[Irishy]

Ah I see. That is so interesting. I always thought Anglicanism was a completely separate denomination to the CofI. There is actually in fact, one church in Dublin that calls itself St John's Anglican Church. So I guess they're a higher church?

[yewchapel]

Sounds like it :) But yeah, CoI is um, interesting haha, it's not too far away from Sydney in terms of how they do Anglicanism.

[Irishy]

Sounds like it :) But yeah, CoI is um, interesting haha, it's not too far away from Sydney in terms of how they do Anglicanism.

Interesting! Don't know much about them really. I'm RC and they have their own schools etc so never encountered much of their culture growing up. They do great cake sales though!

[gulag]

I would be VERY surprised if Orthodox, Catholic or Episcopalian clergy in the US go to generic Bible colleges - they go to seminary, surely (or theological colleges as they are here).

IMO, 'non-denominational' IS a denomination, albeit one without any central organisation - but everyone tends to believe the same thing, worship the same way, organise their churches the same.

Episcopalian priests do not go to Bible colleges. Divinity/theology degrees and seminary. Priests, Fathers and Reverends. They wear collars and vestment.

Priests can marry; woman can be fully ordained. Rare, but priests can take vows of celibacy. I was an acolyte and did Catechism with funny funny English guy, Father Cuttell.

Service - Book of Common Prayer, Creeds, liturgy, traditional Rites, Holy Eucharist, acolytes, responses, kneeling and crossing (optional).

It's generally inclusive and tolerant, you can be participate in a parish without baptism.

Rev. Marc Handley Andrus, bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of California"

"The Episcopal Church has always seen itself as existing in our culture, not outside or above or in opposition to our culture. For over a century, Episcopalians look to the model of Christ transforming culture, rather than, say, Christ against culture.

"On marriage equality, our church has traveled on pilgrimage with our culture. Sometimes we have led in advocacy for marriage equality, and sometimes we have learned from the culture and from leaders outside the church. We have developed rites for blessing and marriage for all, and we have extended the support of the church to LGBT people in the form of premarital counseling and the integration of same-sex couples into loving communities of faith."

Along with signing the brief against California's 2008 amendment banning same-sex marriage, the Episcopal California bishops also joined bishops in nine other states and Washington, D.C., to challenge DOMA.

In my experience and neck of the woods, non-denominational churches vary widely. Seems to all depend on who's in charge and the personality. A different flavor to all of them. Some embrace contemporary gospel music, some condemn it. One church lives for "Prayer Warriors" and intercession, including physical behavior manifestation like seizures, visions and prophesiers. Others frown on it.

[yewchapel]

Episcopalian priests do not go to Bible colleges. Divinity/theology degrees and seminary. Priests, Fathers and Reverends. They wear collars and vestment.

Priests can marry; woman can be fully ordained. Rare, but priests can take vows of celibacy. I was an acolyte and did Catechism with funny funny English guy, Father Cuttell.

Service - Book of Common Prayer, Creeds, liturgy, traditional Rites, Holy Eucharist, acolytes, responses, kneeling and crossing (optional).

It's generally inclusive and tolerant, you can be participate in a parish without baptism.

Rev. Marc Handley Andrus, bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of California"

"The Episcopal Church has always seen itself as existing in our culture, not outside or above or in opposition to our culture. For over a century, Episcopalians look to the model of Christ transforming culture, rather than, say, Christ against culture.

"On marriage equality, our church has traveled on pilgrimage with our culture. Sometimes we have led in advocacy for marriage equality, and sometimes we have learned from the culture and from leaders outside the church. We have developed rites for blessing and marriage for all, and we have extended the support of the church to LGBT people in the form of premarital counseling and the integration of same-sex couples into loving communities of faith."

Along with signing the brief against California's 2008 amendment banning same-sex marriage, the Episcopal California bishops also joined bishops in nine other states and Washington, D.C., to challenge DOMA.

In my experience and neck of the woods, non-denominational churches vary widely. Seems to all depend on who's in charge and the personality. A different flavor to all of them. Some embrace contemporary gospel music, some condemn it. One church lives for "Prayer Warriors" and intercession, including physical behavior manifestation like seizures, visions and prophesiers. Others frown on it.

*cough* I'm Anglican, as I mentioned upthread, I know about Episcopalianism :)

[Rosa]

didn't Harvard start out as a divinity school?

Lutherans, Methodists, and Presbyterians run real colleges and seminaries as well. I actually remembered, after I posted before, that there are real, accredited Baptist colleges - because I know they purged a lot of female professors a few years ago. Our neighborhood Methodist church was sponsoring a member (she paid her own way but the congregation vouched for her) at one and one of my mom's old friends went to seminary after she retired as a schoolteacher a few years ago.

UMC has a board for certifying & overseeing pastors, here is their summary of how to become one. It requires 32 hours of graduate-level courses. http://www.gbhem.org/atf/cf/%7B0bcef929 ... PASTOR.PDF

[samurai_sarah]

Yewchapel- I have another question if I may. I promise, I have googled, but I'm still unsure about the technicalities. Is there a difference between a vicar, a minister and a reverend? The way I'm used to "the reverend", it's a honorific. You'd say "the reverend father" if he's an abbot, but for your common priest, it'd be "father". And how are vicars different from pastors or ministers? Sorry to bug you. Tell me to leave you alone, and just continue googling, if I'm irritating. You just beautifully answered my last questions, so I thought that while I have the chance... :oops:

[gulag]

I would be VERY surprised if Orthodox, Catholic or Episcopalian clergy in the US go to generic Bible colleges - they go to seminary, surely

*cough* I'm Anglican, as I mentioned upthread, I know about Episcopalianism :)

No, I get it. You're way more schooled in this than I am. ...*cough* But I don't actually know what Anglican is... :o

Just confirming that, indeed, they don't go to Bible colleges in the U.S. And offering a description of Episcopalian stuff as I know it, for the person who started the thread and asked the question.

As opposed to Baptist/Lutheran/Puritan protestant practices.

[chaotic life]

Most denominations utilize Seminaries versus Bible colleges. AFAIK, Harvard still has a Theological Seminary in fact.

I know most non-denominational churches don't require Seminary training and some Baptists don't, usually the more fundie and independent ones. However, most mainstream Protestant denominations DO require seminary training and often have their own seminaries.

My father started at a Methodist seminary and transferred to a Mennonite Seminary two years into his degree. These days, the trend in most denominations is actually to increase the requirement to a Doctorate in Divinity instead of even the Masters in Divinity that was the standard requirement 30-40 years ago.

[yewchapel]

No, I get it. You're way more schooled in this than I am. ...*cough* But I don't actually know what Anglican is... :o

Just confirming that, indeed, they don't go to Bible colleges in the U.S. And offering a description of Episcopalian stuff as I know it, for the person who started the thread and asked the question.

As opposed to Baptist/Lutheran/Puritan protestant practices.

Whoops, sorry! And Anglican is the denomination Episcopalians belong to ;) Episcopalians are the American (and Scottish) branch, the Church of England is the English branch (which I am in). So we do things exactly (or almost exactly - I think TEC uses different prayer books etc) as you do.

[gulag]

Okay, got it, yewchapel. Thanks. One would think I would know that. Apparently I missed it in catechism, ha! But I was honest - I know nothing about doctrine. I enjoy the ritual and peace and calm and finer manners. And the way the light comes through the stained glass.

I'm actually quite pagan, I believe in magic, and I'm considering taking up Buddhism because it's so much easier intellectually and there's less condemnation. I'm tired of fundy evangelicals telling me I'm not "a Christian." Well, I'm not frickin' Muslim or Baha'i nor practicing Jewish, am I.

Interesting, I just googled "Anglican" for my region and every hit is an Episcopal parish website. Huh.

[samurai_sarah]

Yewchapel- I have another question if I may. I promise, I have googled, but I'm still unsure about the technicalities. Is there a difference between a vicar, a minister and a reverend? The way I'm used to "the reverend", it's a honorific. You'd say "the reverend father" if he's an abbot, but for your common priest, it'd be "father". And how are vicars different from pastors or ministers? Sorry to bug you. Tell me to leave you alone, and just continue googling, if I'm irritating. You just beautifully answered my last questions, so I thought that while I have the chance... :oops:

Quoting myself, because I found the answer and also that I have a talent for making things- including researching simple things - ridiculously complicated sometimes. Sorry about the daft question, yewchapel, and never mind, found it. :oops:

[yewchapel]

Haha no problem - it is confusing! Vicars and rectors (and canons which are clergy who work in cathedrals) are all priests. The different terms are due to how they were paid, but now they are all paid centrally and just keep the historic titles. Priest comes from presbyteros which is why Catholic priests live in presbyteries not vicarages or rectories, and some people feel that priest is an inaccurate word for what a pastor does because it links them to Old Testament priests. Because there is the sacrificial element in the Eucharist for Catholics and high-church Anglicans, that's not an issue for us (so I call the priest at my church 'Father') but it is for people with a different view of the Eucharist. But essentially, pastors, ministers, vicars and priests all have the same functions, the titles are just linked to different traditions and denominations. Most people I know call their clergy by their first name anyway, and even I call my priest Fr Firstname not Fr Surname.

You are right that Reverend is an honorific! It still is for Anglicans and other denominations, people just use it incorrectly ;) There are official titles for different things, I think a bishop is Right Reverend and a priest is just Reverend, like I think cabinet members are Honorable? Mayors are Worshipful which caused a bit of a stink when our mayor installed a plaque at my previous church :lol: