Another Fundie Bashing the Childless/Childfree

[dramallama]

I'm pretty sure such a high level of interest in opining disapproval of others' reproductive decisions (when no harm is being done) just indicates extreme insecurity with your own reproductive decisions. Whatever. I mean, I sure was hoping to gain fundamentalist whackjob approval of my decision not to procreate, but I had to get over other people feeling entitled to their ridiculous ~opinions~ about the way I choose to conduct that part of my life a long time ago. Though there are days that I'm tempted to whip this out and shout BINGO! at them and demand my prize of $50:

[moodygirl86]

About six months ago, I was talking about this with a work colleague. The conversation got onto having kids, and I remarked that I definitely didn't want any. The other woman looked really surprised, and revealed that she can't have kids due to health problems which have caused infertility. She was very nice about it, not judgmental or anything, but she said she was amazed at women like me who "had the gift of being able to conceive" and yet chose not to. I wanted to say that it was because deep down I know I wouldn't be a good enough mum -ie, not a very patient person - but I didn't say anything further as I feared it might upset her. Obviously, I wouldn't have said it so bluntly if I'd been aware of her health issues, and since then I've been careful to be more sensitive in any conversation where the general topic of kids comes up. But does anyone else think I was in the wrong, and have any of you had similar embarrassing moments?

[Cran]

No, I don't think you were in the wrong. There is no obligation to use every talent and ability we have. We might want to pursue one and forego another.

I could have chosen to become a contortionist when I was younger, because I have a great deal of natural flexibility, but I chose another path. People who have dreamed and dreamed of becoming a contortionist, but who never could due to the body nature gave them would naturally raise eyebrows at this decision, but to me, it was never important enough to devote my life to. That's the way I feel about having children or not. it's a life choice. If you make one choice, you are barred from others. Heidegger would chime in and say life is a series of choices that become more and more limited until you last choice is how to behave when facing death.

If a choice is important to you or not, nobody can decide but the person impacted by it. It's no other person's business.

I've had awkward situations, but not really embarrassing ones, because my mainly Catholic circle of friends and work relations do often simply not understand how somebody (and a woman to boot!) how a person can't love children. When they tell me "Oh, not having a vocation to having children means you can't get married, either! Have you ever considered religious life?" I smile and keep my lack of faith to myself and say that I might be called to be single, and this is an answer most of them are happy with, because when you meet to pray for more celibate religious, it would be hypocrisy to be hard on people like me.

[Patsy]

I don't think you were wrong and I don't think you were blunt. You don't want kids - there it is.

[Feberin]

I'm pretty sure such a high level of interest in opining disapproval of others' reproductive decisions (when no harm is being done) just indicates extreme insecurity with your own reproductive decisions. Whatever. I mean, I sure was hoping to gain fundamentalist whackjob approval of my decision not to procreate, but I had to get over other people feeling entitled to their ridiculous ~opinions~ about the way I choose to conduct that part of my life a long time ago.

I once read a book that said the happiest people are those who want kids and have them or those who don't want kids and don't have them. It's really simple logic but I would assume those who are being judgemental about those who are child free are unhappy with their own reproductive choices or lack thereof in the case of fundies who probably never weighed the pros and cons of having kids.

[Micah]

You get just as much, if not more, shit for only having one child and wanting to keep it that way.

"But he'll be loooonely." "He'll grow up to be a spoilt, entitled brat." "It's easier having more than one, they keep each other entertained." "You wait, you'll get clucky again. Better have another one now, before you get too old." "I don't know how you could be so selfish, only children are always miserable."

My son is not lonely, he has a lot of friends and is VERY socially advanced. He's not a spoilt brat because we don't get him everything he wants just because he asks for it. Yes, he gets better Christmas and b'day presents than some kids because all the money goes to him. I know from observation that it's no as simple as, "siblings keep each other entertained." They also fight, steal each other's toys and battle for affection. "Have another one now, before you get too old," is just insulting and I'm not being selfish because I know for a fact that I could not deal with the stress, sleepless nights and the loss of self that having more than one would bring. For me, having more children would be selfish.

[moodygirl86]

Cheers guys! I admit I've been known in the past to let my feelings get trampled on because I've been too worried about hurting others', although never to the point where I'd be pushed into actually doing anything I didn't want to. What does get my goat is the whole "You're young, you'll change your mind..." I'm 26, which is admittedly young, but at the same time I've also been old enough to conceive for 10 years and I think I would have changed my mind by now if I was ever going to! Although when/if I ever move into a ground floor flat with a garden, I'd love to get a little kitten. Cats are much less demanding than people.

Last time I saw my mum, she was nagging me to be more feminine in order to attract a "nice boyfriend" because I'm "not getting any younger" and I "won't be of childbearing age forever". Every time I tell her I don't particularly want another boyfriend - been there, done that, prefer being single - and I definitely don't want children, she just keeps shaking her head at me as if I'm thick, and saying she doesn't understand how it's possible not to want that and I must have some issues I'm not telling her about. As if anyone else can possibly know what's best for me more than I do myself. Don't get me wrong, for the most part, my mum's great, but she'll never understand my feelings on this topic, and the last couple of times she's brought it up on the phone, I've had to cut her short with "Look Mum, you know you and me disagree on this issue. You live your life as you choose in a way that doesn't impact anyone else, I'll do the same, OK?" and she seems to have taken the hint.

But it's the whole "feminine" bullshit in general that pisses me off - it's a con that the whole world's swallowed! I keep my hair short for convenience's sake because it saves time. As for losing weight - I weigh around eight and a half stone (122-ish pounds) at 5'7 and am big-boned. Hardly huge. I do have quite large boobs and prefer to camouflage this with big sloppy jumpers and baggy shirts. I only ever wear trousers/jeans and flat boots/trainers for the comfort factor, and have never owned a pair of heels. I'd also been telling the family about a night out I'd recently had where a lesbian in a pub chatted me up, and they jumped to the conclusion that I was offended by this (which I wasn't, and I hadn't said I was. They were putting words in my mouth).

Who decided what's feminine and what's not? Society, that's who, hundreds of years before any of us were born. You're not being unfeminine or masculine if you don't fit into their little box, you're just being yourself. And even if I was looking for a man, it wouldn't be somebody who will only go out with someone if they fit some generic Barbie template. If you have to tell someone to change in order to carry on fancying them, are you really that attracted by them in the first place? No, you just want some moron that you can control. Both guys I've been out with turned out to be arseholes, but at least they genuinely liked me for who I was.

Thank you for letting me get that off my chest.

[rward]

It used to freak me out when people said I'd change my mind when I got older. On my 30th birthday, I was crying hysterically, because everyone says I'd hit 30 and want kids. Guess what? I'm now 37 and still don't want kids. And they keep moving the bar. Now, it's "you'll hit menopause and be filled with regret."

Apparently, I'm selfish, not an adult, and don't know what love is. You know what I think is unselfish, mature and loving? Not subjecting a real live person (children are people) to a mother who doesn't want them. But what do I know? I'm obviously a horrible person.

Also, I prefer to use childfree because of the infertility issue. Nothing is sadder than a person who wants children and can't have them. Putting me in the same category is cruel.

[JesusFightClub]

"Nothing ever compares to the love you feel when seeing your newborn baby for the first time..." aargh, aargh. I've had that one and the dreaded Ticking Biological Clock (ask not who the clock ticks for, I really don't give a fuck as I know it's not ticking for me).

Honestly, the urge some people have to press motherhood on every female of suitable age, never mind said female's aptitude, desire for children and relationship status, makes me think that those people have entertained nothing but doubts since their own kids appeared and are frantically trying to get other people into the same situation so they can reassure themselves that they did the right, natural, normal thing. Happy people with no kids are a threat to unhappy mums.

[moodygirl86]

I'm glad you're happy, Rward. So am I, just wish others would accept the fact! I don't really get the "selfish" argument either. To me, selfish is putting your own wants ahead of somebody else's in a detrimental way, and how does that apply to a baby that doesn't exist yet? Unless you're being selfish towards your ovaries.

Has anybody on here ever read Nick Hornby's About a Boy? (I prefer the book to the film because of the character Ellie, who reminds me of myself at 15, but anyways I'm digressing...) For anyone who hasn't, Will Freeman, one of the two main characters, is single and childfree at 36 and this is how his character's portrayed throughout the story, but to be honest I never saw anything wrong with the way he lived. He's a bit of a liar, which obviously pisses people off when he is found out, but you do get an impression reading it of hey-folks-this-is-what-single-and-childfree-people-are-like-in-general! As in, tarring all singles with the same brush. I won't give too much away about how the story ends, although I will say that both Will and Marcus - the boy - do undergo some necessary changes in personality in order to grow as characters. But yeah, although it's one of the most well-thumbed and re-read books on my shelf, that's one thing that pissed me off about the story. I don't know if anybody else who's read it got the same impression?

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I just set that as my desktop background. (Replacing the "I remember too..." spider.)

LOL me too. :lol:

[moodygirl86]

I would have also set it as my desktop background if I didn't already have this:

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sit ... B342%3B849

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Fellow child-free ladies, can I be honest? I'm about six months shy of 30 and I still haven't made up my mind about kids and I'm starting to lose sleep/have nightmares/generally freak out over it. Sometimes I feel like there is actually something missing (like lately I walk down the street and suddenly wonder why my kid isn't beside me, I'm totally serious), other times I see my friends announce births on FB and go "whew, better you than me." NO IDEA what's going on.

[FloraKitty35]

Fundie logic on Sunday morning. My Mother has always told me that you cannot argue or reason with the people who are unreasonable. However, that doesn't mean that I can't and/or won't say somethng right back at them that will make them gasp in horror and their jaws drop open. I have done it. I don't care.

[nokidsmom]

"Nothing ever compares to the love you feel when seeing your newborn baby for the first time..." aargh, aargh. I've had that one and the dreaded Ticking Biological Clock (ask not who the clock ticks for, I really don't give a fuck as I know it's not ticking for me).

Honestly, the urge some people have to press motherhood on every female of suitable age, never mind said female's aptitude, desire for children and relationship status, makes me think that those people have entertained nothing but doubts since their own kids appeared and are frantically trying to get other people into the same situation so they can reassure themselves that they did the right, natural, normal thing. Happy people with no kids are a threat to unhappy mums.

Re: the bolded, yep, ran into this. A female coworker flat out told me that I should have kids so I could "suffer like everyone else". And I flat out told her what she said was quite an admission.

[AVENues]

My answers from upper left to lower right: "NOYFB, No, that's one of the basic instincts of all carbon based life forms, You would not be pestering me right now and you might would have to mind your own fucking business, I'm a fucking teacher, what do you think?!, What am I a fortune teller, probably a nurse that I'll pay to do their job, maybe I won't live that long and that, as a reason to have kids is selfish; I'm not a family, I'm divorced and single, you should try it once; Fuck, really? I thought I was born as an adult; Judging by your IQ, yours will not; Heck no; I am carrying the family name, I took up my mother's maiden name!; I never know you are a fortune teller, can you give me the lottery numbers; IDC; My watch however says it's time for you to GTFO of my face; Hell yeah! 18 till I die!; Yes, really selfish and really freaking pleasant, now do you consider them a PRIZE or a BURDEN, make up your tiny mind; I am a fucking good parent alright, during work and that's plenty, my conscience is always clear; THANK FUCK but there are 7BN people on Earth and to one dead person there are 2 that are born, you don't freaking say, someone has to teach them, cure them, grow their food, make their clothes, etc because you cannot; You don't ay it like you mean it; What else do you have to show for? I'm all ears; They sure are different when they are yours, it's non-stop responsibility; I'll have to live my life as half a woman then because you say so; The only thing I regret is talking to you."

I went through all the cards :) None of your fucking business makes them huffy and weepy but it takes care of the matter quick. And they sure as hell won't ask me to do favors after that because I "have nothing to do" and they are tired of having their own kids.

[mlady]

Fellow child-free ladies, can I be honest? I'm about six months shy of 30 and I still haven't made up my mind about kids and I'm starting to lose sleep/have nightmares/generally freak out over it. Sometimes I feel like there is actually something missing (like lately I walk down the street and suddenly wonder why my kid isn't beside me, I'm totally serious), other times I see my friends announce births on FB and go "whew, better you than me." NO IDEA what's going on.

It's a common reaction when faced with choice. We get hit with "analysis paralyasis" when we think too hard about certain things. I don't like little kids myself and never wanted them, but ended up having two and it turns out I was an awesome mom. Now that they are grown I have two cool adults in my life but still don't like little kids as a rule. Only time will tell if the same thing happens with any grandkids that might come along.

For me it just seemed like the next step in life (get married, buy house, get a pet, have a child..) and I didn't really think too much about it but I knew I was in a good place in life to do it, I was ready for a new challeng and it was just one of those experiences I didn't want to miss. My childfree friends have their own views and they are not a threat to mine any more than mine are to theirs. In fact, it's kind of fun to compare things since we are all a little envious of each other from time to time.

[masagoroll]

This part of her post makes literally no sense:

The hearts of men and women in this nation are so hardened toward their children that they don’t even care enough to bring them into existence.

Read more: http://getalonghome.com/2013/03/childfr ... z2NAqQAeXe

WTF? You can't do anything to someone who doesn't exist yet.

[Mecca]

About six months ago, I was talking about this with a work colleague. The conversation got onto having kids, and I remarked that I definitely didn't want any. The other woman looked really surprised, and revealed that she can't have kids due to health problems which have caused infertility. She was very nice about it, not judgmental or anything, but she said she was amazed at women like me who "had the gift of being able to conceive" and yet chose not to. I wanted to say that it was because deep down I know I wouldn't be a good enough mum -ie, not a very patient person - but I didn't say anything further as I feared it might upset her. Obviously, I wouldn't have said it so bluntly if I'd been aware of her health issues, and since then I've been careful to be more sensitive in any conversation where the general topic of kids comes up. But does anyone else think I was in the wrong, and have any of you had similar embarrassing moments?

I do not think what you said was wrong, nor was it blunt. Do not feel bad. If anything, your work colleague was out of line, even if she said it nicely, to suggest that because your body works differently than hers that somehow obligates you to have a child.

My husband and I have been married nearly fifteen years. We do not have children. The amount of rude questions we have received over the years regarding our reproductive choices are amazing. I stopped being nice about the questions years ago. I most recently told a woman to "fuck off" at a dinner party because of her rudeness. I do not have to justify my choices to anyone, especially a stranger.

[moodygirl86]

Thanks Mecca. My reticence was also partly because we were having the conversation in a work environment. When my mum or acquaintances in less formal settings start that, it's far easier to say, "well how do my reproductive choices affect you? really?" I love the bingo card idea and those are the type of answers I normally have no trouble giving. And yes, my mum has pulled the grandchildren guilt trip before, until I reminded her she already has two grandchildren courtesy of my brother James. Four, if you also count their two cats. So I guess at least I'm not getting as much pressure as I would if not for that...

[Lady]

I always find it amusing when I am told I will change my mind when I am older. I have decided not to have children via pregnancy due to serious health issues and the fear it could be fatal for both the child and I. I don't think I am suddenly going to hit 32 and decide it would be fun to bleed to death since I'm old and have lived a full life.

The viewpoint of attack the child free really misses out on key advantages to having someone in the family and a group of child free adults in society. Right now I can volunteer, donate money and help my community in a way I couldn't if I had children. My aunt and uncle are child free and were able to help me pay for college and college books because of it, they had extra income and no kids of their own to put through college. Think of the advances single women have made in society, would the Hull House have happened if Jane Addams had a dozen kids?

[Wolfie]

For me the questions are annoying. I also teach 6th graders and every once in a while they try to start with the questions. (at least they don't realize that it's rude yet) But what bothers me more than the questions are the people with the attitude that I am less of a person than people with children. Or even people who are married.

[Lady]

For me the questions are annoying. I also teach 6th graders and every once in a while they try to start with the questions. (at least they don't realize that it's rude yet) But what bothers me more than the questions are the people with the attitude that I am less of a person than people with children. Or even people who are married.

Are they doing it in a rude way, or simply curious to find out about life choices they may not be familiar with?

Apparently when I was 3, I was shocked that my preschool teacher did not live at school. I just couldn't imagine it.

[Wolfie]

Are they doing it in a rude way, or simply curious to find out about life choices they may not be familiar with?

Apparently when I was 3, I was shocked that my preschool teacher did not live at school. I just couldn't imagine it.

It's a little bit of both, depending on the life experiences of the student. That's why I'm patient with them. I grew up with single and married adults in my family, some with kids, some with no kids, so I don't think it's that unusual of a lifestyle.

[cjsmom]

You get just as much, if not more, shit for only having one child and wanting to keep it that way.

"But he'll be loooonely." "He'll grow up to be a spoilt, entitled brat." "It's easier having more than one, they keep each other entertained." "You wait, you'll get clucky again. Better have another one now, before you get too old." "I don't know how you could be so selfish, only children are always miserable."

My son is not lonely, he has a lot of friends and is VERY socially advanced. He's not a spoilt brat because we don't get him everything he wants just because he asks for it. Yes, he gets better Christmas and b'day presents than some kids because all the money goes to him. I know from observation that it's no as simple as, "siblings keep each other entertained." They also fight, steal each other's toys and battle for affection. "Have another one now, before you get too old," is just insulting and I'm not being selfish because I know for a fact that I could not deal with the stress, sleepless nights and the loss of self that having more than one would bring. For me, having more children would be selfish.

I have a stepson and a home-made son, who are 10 years apart. Two kids was enough for us. I got a lot of shit for:

-only having one 'real' child

-having them too far apart, so they'll never know each other (they're actually very close)

-having two boys, and I must have wanted a girl, right?

-it would be so nice for my husband to have another one, he's so good with kids (he didn't want a third child either)...

No matter how many or how few children you have, someone will take issue with it (the caveat being those child-collecting fundies we snark about - that's not parenting, as kids need care and attention from their parents, not sister-moms). I think the only one of my friends who is a parent who has not had any crap about it has one daughter and one son, spaced two years apart - oh no, her MIL who has 4 kids, asked when the next one was coming... so yeah, everyone gets it.