Ben Botkin reminisces

[Marian the Librarian]

New post on benbotkindotcom, in which he waxes nostalgic about this time last year:

"I have never posted this before, but I was reminded of this short film I wrote the music for the other day when I was thinking back on the prehistoric before-marriage-era (which, surprisingly, was only last year). I remembered that I had been working on a film right in the middle of a very intensive getting-to-know/cross-examination period with Audri in April 2010 which subsequently swallowed up all the mental processes that would allow me to remember said film project… or actually anything at all besides love, courtship and marriage. (Shameless plug: Audri and I will be speaking on an upcoming webinar on courtship and marriage next month–check it out)"

(Italics/bold mine)

Is it just me, or does the term "cross-examination" kinda leave a legalistic, sour taste in the mouth?? :?

[cindyluvs24]

Webinar? So now, he and Audri are experts . Uh huh.

[clibbyjo]

Webinar? So now, he and Audri are experts . Uh huh.

Of course they are!! He is like 20 and has been married a year, he knows everything about marriage! :clap: ;)

[hoipolloi]

Of course they are!! He is like 20 and has been married a year, he knows everything about marriage! :clap: ;)

Well, they're certainly more expert than Ben's spinster sisters.

[Marian the Librarian]

Oh, I'm betting the sisters won't be saying a word -- in their 3rd decade, they're too busy writing their next book, all about "boys."

This webinar is all about two brand-spanking-newlywed couples telling the world How Courtship And Marriage Should Be Done -- from cross-examination to "wisely reforming American wedding ceremonies" to taking dominion.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

It's an interesting question, though - this couple is young, but remember that for so many this is very much a first-generation radical new lifestyle thing, much as they'd like to pretend otherwise.

Who are the oldest couples in the Vision Forum orbit who did the whole courtship thing? I remember reading about Kelly Brown's marriage and how pure and godly it was that she saved her first kiss for the wedding. I think it was one of the first things that really drew me into reading Doug's Blog, in fact (he did a big spread on it).

Still though even there you'd think the Bradricks would be slightly more experienced, yeah...

[gustava]

It's an interesting question, though - this couple is young, but remember that for so many this is very much a first-generation radical new lifestyle thing, much as they'd like to pretend otherwise.

Who are the oldest couples in the Vision Forum orbit who did the whole courtship thing? I remember reading about Kelly Brown's marriage and how pure and godly it was that she saved her first kiss for the wedding. I think it was one of the first things that really drew me into reading Doug's Blog, in fact (he did a big spread on it).

Still though even there you'd think the Bradricks would be slightly more experienced, yeah...

Are they "legally" married...with an ebil marriage license?

[GenerationCedarchip]

It's an interesting question, though - this couple is young, but remember that for so many this is very much a first-generation radical new lifestyle thing, much as they'd like to pretend otherwise.

Who are the oldest couples in the Vision Forum orbit who did the whole courtship thing? I remember reading about Kelly Brown's marriage and how pure and godly it was that she saved her first kiss for the wedding. I think it was one of the first things that really drew me into reading Doug's Blog, in fact (he did a big spread on it).

Still though even there you'd think the Bradricks would be slightly more experienced, yeah...

Weren't there rumors about the Botkin parents being involved in some kind of courtship/arranged marriage?

I don't know of VF people, but I knew a few people in the 1990s who were starting to go down that road back when courtship was just starting to be talked about and was only seen on the very fringes of fundieland.

[Wolfie]

Oh, I'm betting the sisters won't be saying a word -- in their 3rd decade, they're too busy writing their next book, all about "boys."

This webinar is all about two brand-spanking-newlywed couples telling the world How Courtship And Marriage Should Be Done -- from cross-examination to "wisely reforming American wedding ceremonies" to taking dominion.

I seem to remember that there were a few other couples who did this. It didn't turn out too well for them, did it?

[masagoroll]

New post on benbotkindotcom, in which he waxes nostalgic about this time last year:

"I have never posted this before, but I was reminded of this short film I wrote the music for the other day when I was thinking back on the prehistoric before-marriage-era (which, surprisingly, was only last year). I remembered that I had been working on a film right in the middle of a very intensive getting-to-know/cross-examination period with Audri in April 2010 which subsequently swallowed up all the mental processes that would allow me to remember said film project… or actually anything at all besides love, courtship and marriage. (Shameless plug: Audri and I will be speaking on an upcoming webinar on courtship and marriage next month–check it out)"

(Italics/bold mine)

Is it just me, or does the term "cross-examination" kinda leave a legalistic, sour taste in the mouth?? :?

"Cross-examination" is a super awkward thing to say! Never have I felt like I am "cross-examining" my husband unless we are having a big argument. I mean, WTF?

Also, my husband and I have been married 4 years as of yesterday... according to the Botkins, I must be a freaking expert by now.

[Cordial]

Are they "legally" married...with an ebil marriage license?

Wait, no marriage licenses? Is that a thing?

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I don't know, I've not heard any talk about it. I assumed the Bradricks have a marriage license just because they seem to be treated as legally married in the US and you need one, right? But, I don't know.

[hoipolloi]

Wait, no marriage licenses? Is that a thing?

Some fundies reject state-issued marriage licenses. Michael Pearl said the following about his youngest daughter's wedding (nogreaterjoy.org/articles/general-view/archive/2004/july/23/the-wedding/):

"None of my daughters or their husbands asked the state of Tennessee for permission to marry. They did not yoke themselves to government. It was a personal, private covenant, binding them together forever—until death. So when the sodomites have come to share in the state marriage licenses, which will eventually be the law, James and Shoshanna will not be in league with those perverts."

[masagoroll]

Some fundies reject state-issued marriage licenses. Michael Pearl said the following about his youngest daughter's wedding (nogreaterjoy.org/articles/general-view/archive/2004/july/23/the-wedding/):

"None of my daughters or their husbands asked the state of Tennessee for permission to marry. They did not yoke themselves to government. It was a personal, private covenant, binding them together forever—until death. So when the sodomites have come to share in the state marriage licenses, which will eventually be the law, James and Shoshanna will not be in league with those perverts."

LMAO, that is so stupid that it's hilarious.

You know what gay people also do? WORK JOBS. EAT FOOD. SHOP AT WALMART. DRIVE CARS. Surely Christians shouldn't do any of THOSE things either!

[Wolfie]

LMAO, that is so stupid that it's hilarious.

You know what gay people also do? WORK JOBS. EAT FOOD. SHOP AT WALMART. DRIVE CARS. Surely Christians shouldn't do any of THOSE things either!

AND they live together as committed couples without government paperwork too!

[hoipolloi]

LMAO, that is so stupid that it's hilarious.

You know what gay people also do? WORK JOBS. EAT FOOD. SHOP AT WALMART. DRIVE CARS. Surely Christians shouldn't do any of THOSE things either!

No one here pegged Michael Pearl as intelligent, despite his delusions to the contrary :lol:

[Wolfie]

I think it's really a way to keep the women trapped. They're not legally married, so if they choose to get out of there they won't have the property benefits of a legal divorce. They would have to take off with nothing, including how many kids?

[hoipolloi]

What Mike Pearl doesn't seem to get or acknowledge to his cult followers is that his daughters are therefore just shacking up with their male partners.

It isn't clear whether or not his two married sons have state-issued marriage licenses or, like his daughters, are living in sin with their women, producing illegitimate children. If so, then Mike & Debi Pearl have only bastards for grandchildren.

[masagoroll]

I think it's really a way to keep the women trapped. They're not legally married, so if they choose to get out of there they won't have the property benefits of a legal divorce. They would have to take off with nothing, including how many kids?

Good point, Wolfie!

[sugaree]

Cross-examination. How sexy. And romantic.

[bea]

I remember very few courtship stories from the YLCF page that pre-date the mid-nineties. Am I wrong on this one? I haven't read them all - my stomach isn't that strong.

[sugaree]

Matt and Maranantha Chapman married in 1988. The Botkins (alleged or rumored) arranged marriage in the 70s wasn't under the auspices of their parents, but of their creepy controlling church, so it was a good, old-fashioned cult-arranged marriage.

[SamuraiKatz]

Cross examination? Only a Son of a Botkin could make getting to know one's prospective life partner sound like a criminal proceeding.

[MamaJunebug]

It's an interesting question, though - this couple is young, but remember that for so many this is very much a first-generation radical new lifestyle thing, much as they'd like to pretend otherwise.

Who are the oldest couples in the Vision Forum orbit who did the whole courtship thing? I remember reading about Kelly Brown's marriage and how pure and godly it was that she saved her first kiss for the wedding. I think it was one of the first things that really drew me into reading Doug's Blog, in fact (he did a big spread on it).

Still though even there you'd think the Bradricks would be slightly more experienced, yeah...

And here's Doug's big spread (not stance, this time) on the wedding.

visionforum.com/news/blogs/doug/2006/08/

Curiously, gardevarietycitizen, I remember this as being one of the first times I was horrified at what "christianity" is to these people: basically, it's men praising other men.

I particularly feel sick at the passage, "this is my beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased" under a photo of Bradrick pere & fils ....

If anybody attends the webinar, won't they please report back? I'd love to hear about it, but doubt I could actually listen to it.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Bwahahaha not a "stance" indeed :D

Wow, that Bradrick wedding was five years back... time flies!

I remember noticing the extreme patriocentricity(?) of the whole thing, definitely. I'm from a very alien background from them (so they are alien to me) so I don't know that I was perceptive enough to put it in context of other more "normal" Christianity, but... yeah. I remember thinking there was something charming about it at first, but then realizing that I'd be horrified if I was supposedly as "innocent" as the bride was.

In fact, to tie it to some other recent threads, I can kinda understand the attraction to some of the fundie blogs - they put forth an image of complete order, everyone happy and satisfied, no existential angst because they are all obedient and everyone knows their place, and they have the perfect warm family and whatever else, and that's attractive to a lot of people. But it's when you step back for a minute, and realize what you'd have to give UP to have that satisfaction in the limited pond, that it's horrifying. You'd have to not question anything, and be happy with a benevolent dictator. But the problem is, once you give it up to a dictator, you by definition have no say from that point if he's benevolent or not.