The Good Old Days

[Mama Mia]

Our high school in the laste 70's/ early 80's also had a smoking area. And we had a demonstration to request one at the Jr. High ( I was an instigator of that, but I liked to protest things in general ).

We did call the vacations Easter Vacation and Christmas Vacation instead of Winter and Spring Break. And did some craft projects with Christmas and Easter themes, but that is the only sort of religious mention that I recall, except for comparative religion courses at my high school, or very briefly covering the basics of various regions religious beliefs in Social Studies.

We also had sex education in 5th, 8th and 10th grades. At least in 8th and 10th grade birth control, and access to birth control was discussed. The fifth grade course focused on puberty and periods, I don't remember if they touched on birth control at that time.

At my Jr. High we also had an elective class in Women's Studies that covered more in depth discussion of birth control, sexuality, domestic violence, teen pregnancy, etc. basically it was "Our Bodies, Ourselves" in a classroom discussion format.

Aside from the ridiculously easy access to drugs, I disagree with the 70's being dismal. I think from an educational standpoint, at least in my area, there was a much greater range of options and opinions allowed. The curriculum at the Jr. High at least was much more focused on finding ways to interest the students and to encourage intellectual curiosity, instead of just the rote memorization that I see now. I think the overall atmosphere was less bullying, and more encouraging of diversity ( within the context of the rather cruel and narrow minded attitude of adolescents in general ). Certainly there was less overt racism expressed than seems to be the norm now. I grew up in an outlying area of the San Francisco bay, so I imagine my experience may not be typical of more conservative areas.

I am sure some of my memories are somewhat glossed over, and the chemical haze of the era certainly was a drawback, with a large number of my peers becoming hopelessly addicted and lost - but the educational system itself seemed better than what they have now.

[JenniferJuniper]

My kids have a hard time believing that my high school (graduated in '82) had a smoking section. For students. Trufax.

You could smoke in my HS cafeteria until 1978. They had ashtrays on the tables. But it was such a big cafe, the teachers didn't feel they could patrol it well enough to prevent all the pot smoking that was going on, so an edict was passed that you could only smoke on the patio. To add insult to injury, if you were smoking on the patio, you had to face the school so anyone looking out could see what you were smoking. If you weren't facing the school when you were smoking you got sent off the school grounds (where you could no doubt smoke whatever you wanted in peace.)

The smokers rioted, claiming their right to smoke indoors in warmth and comfort was being violated. Literally threw chairs through windows and shit. It was pretty scary to witness. The local news stations sent crews to cover it. Some kids were arrested but the new rules stayed in place until the mid 80's when all smoking was finally banned.

My oldest attends the same school and sometimes when I look at that patio I think of that day. I've never told her the story. It's not something she could relate to on any level.

[Jana814]

I graduated High School in 1998, I to sometimes think of the good old days even though for me it was 14 years ago. I DID NOT smoke but they were allowed to smoke in the bathrooms, now it is banned everywhere, we had fire drills, and stuff, and once in a while a bomb threat, I have no idea what kind of drills they have now. I had teachers who taught their for years (some it was the only teaching job they had) and they would tell us about the smoking that the kids and teachers use to take cigrettes from each other.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I was in public elementary school in the early 90s, in rural Canada. We sang 'God Save the Queen' and recited the Lord's prayer in the morning. I don't think it's done any more, though. In the region I grew up in, when my mother was a child, there were no 'secular' schools - there was 'protestant' and 'catholic'. Since then, the protestant schools have become 'public secular,' though most of them still had prayer when I was there, but no religious courses. The Catholic have remained Catholic (still publicly funded).

Perhaps some of the fundies pushing school prayer and an end to the separation of church and state should take a look at Quebec. When my parents were growing up, the Catholic Church was firmly in bed with the government, and as I mentioned, even little Jewish kids were singing hymns to Jesus. Did that produce an ultra-religious population now? Not exactly - people got so disgusted with it that the birthrate plummeted, rates of living together outside of marriage skyrocketed, and Quebec is so secular that if your hear a Quebecois using religious terminology, they are probably swearing.

[Sumeri]

Reading all your responses is fascinating - thank you!

In High School they played the National Anthem over our speakers, followed by our HS fight song. In elementary school we did say the pledge of allegiance - but my kids still do that.

And smoking -- oy, there was smoking EVERYWHERE! Even in hospital waiting rooms.

Edit for crap typing.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I don't miss the smoking. At all.

I hated it, and my mother didn't like it either, but we just thought that it was something that we had to tolerate. My mom's version of being anti-smoking meant that my dad only smoked in the basement, and only smoked with us in the car during really long trips. He quit in 1986, as the anti-smoking measures were starting to come in, and now he's pretty vocal about people not smoking around kids or unwilling adults.

I'm still amazed that I can go into clubs or bars today and NOT be hit with a wall of smoke. Part of the reason that I wasn't more of a party girl was that the smoke was so bad that it irritated my eyes and throat.

At my high school, the smoke was particularly bad in the staff room (the whole hallway stank from it) and the stairway where everyone went to do drugs.

[Jesus Camp Counselor]

I am 33 and grew up in a lily white suburb of Cleveland. I do not recall prayer in school, but we didn't shy away from the religious aspect of Christmas. In first grade, we did a play about the nativity. I played Mary, and I still remember that my line was "I accept God's plan for me." :shock: I do remember feeling rather out of place as a protestant because most of the people I knew were Catholic.

We did have regular sex ed. I think we started with videos on puberty in fourth grade. I remember we talked about birth control in seventh grade, and in tenth grade they passed around condoms to look at.

I was also taught evolution. My church wasn't one that saw the Bible as literal, so I saw no conflict. I was blind to any controversy about evolution being taught if there was.

Smoking wasn't allowed in school, but everyone smoked in the bathrooms. I hated it because I didn't smoke. The teachers would sit outside and tell you not to smoke as you were going in, but no one ever stopped it while I was in high school.

[freealljs]

I graduated HS in 1990. I went to public school from kindergarten to 12th grade. I remember in elementary school doing the Pledge of Allegiance with the "under God" part. I remember I had a super religious teacher around 3rd or 4th grade who insisted we all bow our heads in prayer, well at least until the Principal heard about it and put a stop to it.

I had sex ed in 8th grade. They gave us bananas and condoms. I ate my banana before seeing what it was for. LOL

I was taught evolution, but I do remember my biology teacher said that some people believe in creationism. She didn't go into detail about creationism, but said if we believe it, that was up to us. I do remember seeing a cross necklace, so she didn't seem to have a problem with evolution and Christianity.

My HS history teacher fought in WWII. He told us about the Holocaust and freeing concentration camps. I never looked at religion the same after that. I stopped attending my super fundie church and distanced myself from my best friend at the time. Her family was super fundie and wouldn't allow us to be friends unless I remained super fundie.

My HS chemistry teacher was as gay as can be. David Waller, pecan thief, reminds me of him (take out the Gothard crap of course).

I don't remember cigarette smoking in HS. I never smoked, but I'm sure some of my classmates did.

[Hane]

I was born in 1952. Until I was in fourth grade, we started the school day with the Our Father. Most of us kids were Catholic, and got irked with the "odd" way our obviously Protestant third grade teacher said that prayer. (Looking back, I think she was jerking us around a little.) A handful of the kids I went through school with were Jewish, and because I knew very little about Judaism until I was older, it never dawned on me to realize that making them say the Our Father was inappropriate.

In the middle of my fourth-grade year, our teacher (a sweet lady) sat us down in groups to discuss the end of school prayer. I remember her asking us which churches we went to, and encouraging the one unchurched kid to ask his parents to start taking him. (He came from an extremely poor and dysfunctional family, and grew up to be a rapist.)

Then there was no more school prayer. It did not change our school experience AT ALL. I was surprised to learn that, in other towns, Catholic kids got dismissed early to go to religious ed--in our town, Catholic religious ed was held on Saturdays in all seven parishes.

In high school, students (ages 16 and up, I believe) who got a permission slip from their parents were allowed to smoke in the outdoor smoking area, but many smoked in the johns, which were rarely policed.

And I agree with what Jinger Jar said about the '70s. They pretty much bit. The economy was in the toilet, and jobs were hard to find. I had an assortment of part-time and temporary jobs until 1980.

[Arete]

I am 45 years old. I went to public schools in the 70's and eighties.

Nowhere during that time do I remember saying a prayer in school, discussing God in school, or engaging in any Christian themed exercise in school.

Sure, at Christmas we sang Christmas songs, but they were always the secular variety - "White Christmas" Or "Happy Holidays" or "Jingle Bells" or "Santa Claus is coming to Town". Those were interspersed with "Dreidel", "Deyenu" and I remember a few times we danced the Hora at events (one of my favorite memories ever is dancing the Hora with Mayor Harold Washington at a Catholic University). We certainly weren't singing CAROLS, or discussing Jesus in school, ever. He really never came up, as we were busy doing other things, like learning science.

If there was a death, we had a moment of silence, not a prayer. I remember a moment of silence for John Lennon, Mayor Daley and Pope John Paul. I remember celebrating the Iran hostages' release -- but nary a prayer was said about any of those events.

So where are the fundies getting this idea that it's just recently that we're not "welcoming God" in school? Do any of you of a similar age or older who didn't go to parochial school remember a time when folks were sitting in the classroom discussing creationism and praying out loud?

I'm in your age bracket and have virtually the same story. Public school. No prayer. No carols. Yes we did sing secular Christmas songs and dreidel as well for the "Winter Assembly" because our school district had a large Jewish population. I remember the moments of silence. We had sex ed. With condoms. And bannanas. Jesus and the bible never came up. EVER. Our religious exposure began and ended with what we could and could not swap at lunch with the Jewish kids (though some of them were secret pork eaters, my agnostic father was amadant that there would be no ham or pot roast and cheese trades that had originated under his roof with kids whose parents kept kosher :naughty: ). When we dissected frogs, goat eyes, and the like in biology we talked about how long it was going to take to type (on a typewritter) a 10 page paper, not character traits or gospel readings. We learned evolution and the teacher did not address the other side at all, because it was a biology class for crying out loud.

I can't even wrap my head around the fact there are Christian "clubs" in public schools. Or any religious club. No such animal existed when I went to public school. No one told me to pray. No one told me not to pray in school. It would never occur to me that if I wanted to say a prayer in school, I could not do it SILENTLY. Why would I want the class to know if I was praying?

All the men and most of the women I knew growing up smoked.

[Arete]

About the 70s, I agree with JingerJar and everyone else. They sucked.

I can remember sitting in gas lines as a family to get half a tank. I guess Dad figured if he had to be bored and frustrated, by God we would too. We walked to the supermarket and carried stuff back to conserve gas during the crisises. All our cars in the 70s and 80s were American made and pieces of shit. They were on blocks at least once a month while my Dad would work on them. So did every other man in our neighborhood with an car. To this day I can look at a puddle under a car and tell you in about a nanosecond if you are leaking oil, transmission fluid, brake fluid or anti-freeze. We knew how to check oil from the age of 13 and change oil when we got lisences. We were girls. In the 90s we switched to Japanese cars and you couldn't pay me to buy an American car. The economy was always iffy, as was the money supply we depended on. If we had had fundie neighbors in this mix? It would not have ended well.

[salsa]

50. Grew up in a predominantly Roman Catholic area, many Polish and Italian immigrants. We were nominally Protestant and, while Protestant Christianity was insisted on, it was not something we lived (we didn't pray or go to church - kind of like Archie Bunker. Necessary to believe it, but poor understanding and little-to-no practice).

We pledged the flag, which I honestly don't have a problem with (except that JW's and others who don't believe in it should be exempt without hostility) but I never remember a single prayer being uttered. However, I do remember that my kindergarten class had a Christmas pageant where one of the girls was Mary and had a baby and said, "I will name him Jesus." This was a public school.

Our high school (late 70's) had a Bible as literature class.

I actually learned more about astrology from one of my english teachers than I ever did learn anything about christianity from anyone else.

However, when I substitute taught in the public schools in South Carolina in the mid-80's, they had a lunch blessing. I don't remember if it was Christian-specific. Also, when I lived in rural Georgia in the mid-90's, the public school children there also did the God is great blessing.

Of course, they also hired substitute teachers with no formal education whatsoever and hired high school students to be bus drivers. *shudder*

[NurseNell]

So where are the fundies getting this idea that it's just recently that we're not "welcoming God" in school? Do any of you of a similar age or older who didn't go to parochial school remember a time when folks were sitting in the classroom discussing creationism and praying out loud?

I graduated from high school in 1963. I went to public school and, in fact, was the only Catholic in my class through all 13 years of school. We started the day with the pledge of allegiance and the Our Father, the Protestant version. I asked about sometimes saying the Catholic version or the Hail Mary but was shot down. On Fridays we had sisters in grade school, a priest in 7th thru 12th grade, come into the school for 1 hour of religious ed. The Protestants had missionaries who spent a year or two doing this, then moving to a new town so they had different people every year or two. We had one of 2 sisters, and the same priest for all our years. Actually in 1962 and 63 we were transported by bus to the Catholic church because of the Supreme Court ruling. The Protestant kids went to the local Methodist church no matter what their religion. The 3 Jewish kids went with the Protestants because their mother was Episcopalian and their Jewish doctor father was a secular Jew. The Russian Orthodox kids, who were siblings, were excused, their father was the priest. When something bad happened we prayed in class. During the Bay of Pigs we cried and prayed. We never learned creationism, we learned evolution and no one raised a fuss. We were expected to read a set number of classics each year as part of the English curriculum and no parents complained. When we were seniors there was something called baccalaureate night, it was something religious, I wasn't allowed to go as a Catholic. The Gideons came to the school once/year, the Catholics could not attend but I snuck in one year because I wanted to see what it was about. It was very different from now.

My mother was the only non-Jew in her grade school class at PS 11 in the Bronx and one of the few non-Jews at Hunter College High School. They got all the Jewish holidays off. I don't know if they had school prayer. Her father was an atheist, her mother Lutheran. She was raised Lutheran, considered herself more Jewish than anything, and became a Unitarian.

edited to add: In grade school we had a Christmas pageant every year, complete with Mary, Joseph, and the Baby Jesus. In 7th thru 12 the grade we had a Christmas chorus presentation, we sang both religious hymns and non religious carols. We always had Good Friday off school.

This was in New York state.

[miffy]

I went to the local public school for the first couple of years of school. A church volunteer took RE classes every couple of weeks. I think it might have been baptist? We also did a lot of christmas stuff with the Catholic primary school down the road.

After the public school I went to an Anglican school with a high church chaplain. Very religious assemblies with the chaplain in his robes with his censer. RE was a subject taught all through school, there was a lunchtime prayer club, we sang hymns in music class, yearly school service at the main Anglican cathedral in Melbourne, the bible & book of common prayer were on the booklist.

[Phoebe]

Grew up in corn country and was in Catholic schools until 5th grade (1989). I remember having nuns as teachers...we still learned a lot of the Catholic/Christian-specific stuff, but evolution was okay, Jesus never rode brontosaurs etc. We always had a religious-themed Christmas concert, but the spring concert was usually secular.

In 5th grade onward, I was in public school and we were allowed to use the computers to type papers and play Oregon Trail. That's it. I remember my high school's first "Meet you at the pole" prayer...thingy, and that was kind of controversial because it was more in-your-face than merely having a Youth for Christ club that met after school.

[thetabmeister]

I think there is quite a lot of "the good old days" = "the image I had of life when I was a child". How many boomers do you know who think the 50s/60s were a peachy, golden two decades filled with women in beautiful dresses, handsome suited fathers, polite children, and absolutely nothing to worry about at all. Never mind that there was a cold war -- and several not so cold wars -- going on, and half those housewives were self-medicating their depression with alcohol, and some of those fathers could be taken to prison for knowing someone who knows a communist, etc. You don't hear about that stuff when you're a kid, so it mustn't have happened, right? I'm only 23 and I'm already hearing people talk about how much safer we were in the 90s, although I'm sure in many people's eyes we were already well into the Great Cultural Decline. It's kind of like how a friend of mine said you never used to hear about bus beheadings or on-purpose home explosions or things like that -- as if her parents would have let her watch those things on the news as a wee child. And she's a smart woman -- it just didn't occur to her. If you add in a bias towards thinking society is collapsing (which fundiedom certainly has) and a longing for certain abandoned norms (husband in charge, etc), the nostalgia goggles become pretty powerful.

I completely agree with everything you said, Jaynie. Said it much better than I did. And actually, we're almost the same age.

[2xx1xy1JD]

The 24 news channels are also a huge factor. I've had arguments with otherwise-intelligent people about the fact that crime stats are pretty clear about the fact that things are NOT getting worse, and in many cases are better now than they were 25 years ago.

Nancy Grace was not in our living rooms 25 years ago.

Yes, there were still murdered children and other horrible things - but it was the local stories that got coverage when I was growing up. We watched the news on TV for an hour every night, and you wouldn't be able to fit constant coverage of murders everywhere into that time.

Media coverage shapes our perception. I'll give a little example that I call "The Fires of Tonawanda".

Ask anyone my age who grew up in Toronto what comes to mind when you say "Tonawanda" (which is a suburb of Buffalo, NY). Chances are, they will mention something about fires.

The odd thing is that people in Buffalo won't do this. Tonawanda is not more flammable than the rest of the world. So, why do we think it is?

It's because kids growing up in Toronto in the 1970s and 1980s would watch the Buffalo TV stations, because we liked their kids' shows. Since all-kid channels did not yet exist, we would also see the news flashes. Over the years, this meant hearing hundreds of times about some 2 alarm blaze in Tonawanda. We weren't living in Buffalo and most of us had never been to Tonawanda, so that was our only knowledge of the place. Coverage of fires in Toronto didn't have the same effect because we lived here and could easily see that our own streets weren't on fire, and had plenty of other things to associate with Toronto.

This wasn't deliberate propoganda - just an odd quirk that happens to demonstrate the power of the media.

And yes, I will grudgingly admit that the 1970s were not so wonderful and the 1980s were probably better - it's just that I was happier in the 1970s because I was younger and was blessed with a happy childhood, and 1980 was the time that I moved to a new school with no friends and the time at which I started to read newspapers and become more aware of the world around me.

[NurseNell]

I just came from my 3rd grade granddaughter's holiday program. She attends a public school. They used holiday on the printed program but mostly used Christmas in speaking. They sang several secular songs, a beautiful African song about peace, a Hanukkah song, and Christian carols. It ended with the audience joining in singing Silent night. Then we had a turkey lunch with our child in their classroom. It was very nice. This is a town of 5,000 where almost everyone is Lutheran or Catholic, and most families have both because of interfaith marriages.

[Hane]

It's interesting for me to see that, even though I'm one of the oldest people here in this discussion, I seem to be the only one who never saw a Nativity play performed in my public school. Even before the ban on school prayer, it seems my small blue-collar city had more of a separation of church and state than I've seen elsewhere and more recently.

A few decades ago, it was decided that Church Women United could no longer erect a manger scene on the City Hall lawn--so it just got moved across the street to the Methodist church lawn. No weeping and gnashing of teeth needed.

(Oh, and the smoking. Try being a certified tobacco-allergic child with parents who smoked like chimneys. I had hypoallergenic pillows, curtains, and floor coverings, and an air purifier, in my bedroom, but no one ever suggested that my parents quit smoking--not even doctors, to the best of my knowledge. They even smoked in my hospital room when I was admitted for days of testing to find out why I had month-long sore throats. I got carsick during long car trips--the only one in the family who did--and it occurred to nobody that Mom's non-stop puffing was to blame. She became quite defensive when Dad quit, and got downright ticked off when I came home from seventh grade and talked about the anti-smoking film I saw in science class. She only quit when, at the age of 53, she had her first major heart attack. It was in 1978, and the hospital orderly asked her whether she smoked--in order to bring her an ash tray if necessary. She said, "Not anymore, I don't." Unfortunately, it had already done her a great deal of harm. There was smoking in my office well into the '80s. In the late '90s, I visited my daughter at college in New York and took her out to a restaurant. When I asked for the non-smoking section, she told me that ALL restaurants were non-smoking in New York, and I felt I'd died and gone to heaven.)

[Jana814]

I was in Chorus all 4 years a High school (can't sing now) my teacher always tried to include a Hanukah song w/ my group (all girls) we also sang several Christmas songs, just heard one of them on the radio and sang they want my teacher taught us, Every winter concert we sang the Halluhah Song, w/ the other group and the alumni sang it as well. Their were a few Jewish kids in my group (me included) so we got it was hard for him to find Hanukah songs.

[Jana814]

In the late '90s, I visited my daughter at college in New York and took her out to a restaurant. When I asked for the non-smoking section, she told me that ALL restaurants were non-smoking in New York, and I felt I'd died and gone to heaven.)

This very true about smoking, I am from New Jersery (about 30 minutes from the city) they banned smoking in NJ resturants in 2000 or 2001. I have a friend who a few years ago was driving a car down to Florida and when he went into to the bar to get something to eat, he had to leave because their was still smoking in that bar, (his body was not use to smoke anymore)

[YPestis]

The trite "good old days" are so overdone. Maybe kids would use "sir" and "ma'am" more often, but they also used the n-word and other racial slurs. Maybe people did pray more often, but they also thought lowly of Catholics and nonChristians. Maybe a young man is more apt to open doors for a young lady, but he also more likely to think the woman's place is at home. You will excuse me if I don't miss the good old days. It seems people have very short memories. Heck, even in my short span I've been on this planet, I've noticed society progressing towards a better place. Why wants to relive the 80's?!

[JesusFightClub]

I am now 32 and went to a religious school for a few years when I was young.

Halloween was verboten. Catholics were also verboten. We weren't allowed to sing non-religious songs.

Having said that, it wasn't full on. We used a combination of the NIV and the KJV. Girls were expected to stick to gender roles, which was kind of rubbish for me (for a start girls weren't allowed to answer in maths class either because we were told "Women aren't suited for mathematics" So if you raised your hand the teacher shook his head.)

[Belle0000]

I think there is quite a lot of "the good old days" = "the image I had of life when I was a child". How many boomers do you know who think the 50s/60s were a peachy, golden two decades filled with women in beautiful dresses, handsome suited fathers, polite children, and absolutely nothing to worry about at all. Never mind that there was a cold war -- and several not so cold wars -- going on, and half those housewives were self-medicating their depression with alcohol, and some of those fathers could be taken to prison for knowing someone who knows a communist, etc. You don't hear about that stuff when you're a kid, so it mustn't have happened, right? I'm only 23 and I'm already hearing people talk about how much safer we were in the 90s, although I'm sure in many people's eyes we were already well into the Great Cultural Decline. It's kind of like how a friend of mine said you never used to hear about bus beheadings or on-purpose home explosions or things like that -- as if her parents would have let her watch those things on the news as a wee child. And she's a smart woman -- it just didn't occur to her. If you add in a bias towards thinking society is collapsing (which fundiedom certainly has) and a longing for certain abandoned norms (husband in charge, etc), the nostalgia goggles become pretty powerful.

Also (and someone may have already mentioned this)--segregation and racial discrimination. I think that for some fundies, THAT'S the part of the good ol' days that they miss.

[Conuly]

(for a start girls weren't allowed to answer in maths class either because we were told "Women aren't suited for mathematics" So if you raised your hand the teacher shook his head.)

What the hell? And I thought I couldn't be shocked.