The daughter of my arch-enemy has been trying to save ME.

[Effie]

I would simply point out that dress and modesty are informed by society and culture - what seems immodest and brazen to one culture is demure and normal to another, and we all have prejudices as a result of the culture we grew up in, but it's not helpful to think in absolutes.

Yes, definitely. I consider "modesty" to be a social construction. I think the idea to judge someone based on appearances is idiotic. There are several groups of people, whose appearances will not reflect much of their personality – if anything. The appearances of severely depressed people tend to reflect their illness more than their personality (for example they don’t always manage to wash their hair or clothes). My good-hearted schizophrenic aunt, didn’t reflect her own self when she ended up in her psychotic episodes. During her psychosis, she wasn’t in fact herself. She dressed poorly, for example she could forget to put on a shirt and just have a bra on her upper body (grossly disorganized behaviour), when she went out in public. There’s always a lot behind the surface. Very often you can’t tell if a person is mentally healthy just by looking at her. A paranoid schizophrenic person can manipulate people into thinking she is perfectly fine. A depressed person can become a master at faking a smile.

[moodygirl86]

Yes, definitely. I consider "modesty" to be a social construction. I think the idea to judge someone based on appearances is idiotic. There are several groups of people, whose appearances will not reflect much of their personality – if anything. The appearances of severely depressed people tend to reflect their illness more than their personality (for example they don’t always manage to wash their hair or clothes). My good-hearted schizophrenic aunt, didn’t reflect her own self when she ended up in her psychotic episodes. During her psychosis, she wasn’t in fact herself. She dressed poorly, for example she could forget to put on a shirt and just have a bra on her upper body (grossly disorganized behaviour), when she went out in public. There’s always a lot behind the surface. Very often you can’t tell if a person is mentally healthy just by looking at her. A paranoid schizophrenic person can manipulate people into thinking she is perfectly fine. A depressed person can become a master at faking a smile.

Sorry about your aunt, Effie. You're right, judging by appearance is not just idiotic but pure laziness. It's just an excuse not to bother getting to know the person. I once asked somebody I knew why he automatically assumed the worst/took a dislike to people at first sight, and he sneered at me that it "saved time".

[Guest Anonymous]

That was not meant to be self-congratulatory. On the other hand, what is so creepy/wrong about agreeing with arguments you don't agree with? People do so all the time. Some people do so in order to avoid conflict (they just don't have the energy to keep up a debate), or simply because they want to encourage the other person to keep developing her own opinions.

I made my comments based on an understanding that your exchange with B took place at a time that she was legally a child and you were legally an adult, and neither of you had any connection other than reading each other's thoughts on the internet. Personally, I think it would be discourteous at best, and somewhat creepy at worst, for a stranger to pretend to be convinced by a child's arguments, in the sole hope of gaining trust and using that trust to change the child's beliefs.

Backing off would mean not responding to the comments on my own blog, or what? Because that's where we have had our main conversations. Yes, writing an e-mail is unnecessary, but I don't really get what I should back off from (except backing off from the idea to write an e-mail). It's my blog. I should be able to write whatever I want there.

Firstly, I'm sorry, reading that back I was extremely blunt and rude in the way I phrased that.

In your OP you said you had googled for B's email address and you were looking for advice as to how to frame an email to her. As background, you gave a link to B's own Google+ page. I made my comments based on what you have said in this thread and what I read on B's page. I have no idea where your blog is and have not read it since the very first time you posted a link on FJ. That link is now gone.

My suggestion was intended to be that you back off from the idea of emailing her along the lines that you originally suggested, because there really are no nice words you can use to frame your sentiments, and you seem to have no basis of friendship or kinship in which such an approach might be seen to be helpful. I urged caution also in the context that you are a trainee social worker and, if a complaint was made against you to your college or professional body for harassment, then I suspect that they might also take a dim view of your behaviour, regardless of your actual intentions.

I don't consider her to be a friend either. I am concerned about her well-being, but I'm not so much concerned about having a good relation with her. I don't really want to, other than that I consider it to be sort of a responsibility.

I think there's a 'bond' between all people in a society - a 'bond' of responsibility. Children/youths in a society are not just the parent's concern - it's the society's concern. If I notice someone who isn't doing well, then I have a responsibility to do something. If I don't, I break a 'bond'. That's just how I see things.

From the things you have said it seems that you hold a view that (1) all people in society are responsible for each other; (2) when you notice a situation that seems wrong to you you feel compelled to take action, and (3) once involved in someone's life, you will not let go unless they do first.

I agree that members of society have a basic responsibility to each other. However, I think that there are lots of ways and levels at which we can exercise this responsibility and, at the same time, I think it is important to respect other people's boundaries and not impose our own sensibilities on other competent adults when they have made clear that they are not interested. Otherwise we risk crossing the line from concern to harassment.

Fundamentally, I do not believe that any single individual will be personally equipped to intervene in every situation that concerns them. No matter how educated we are or how mature we feel, we all have biases and prejudices and blind spots which mean that we are not always the best help that another person needs. Often in life, the most appropriate way to discharge our responsibility is to refer on. Refusing to 'let go' can sometimes cause more harm than good and it is an issue that you will likely have covered or will cover in your social work training.

If B were still a child and if you had legitimate concerns or questions over her well-being, then I think the most appropriate thing to do, as a stranger in another country, would be to address any concerns to the child protection services in her area.

However, she is no longer a child and she seems to be making choices and developing beliefs of her own, which she is legally and morally entitled to do. Overwhelmingly, I don't think there is any need to take action in B's case from a child safety perspective because she is not a child any more. That ship has sailed, no matter how much you 'just think' the case to be different.

Obviously, if you want to keep in contact with her and she is happy with that then fill your boots. It's a free world and it is entirely up to you what you do in this situation. It doesn't affect me in the slightest. I simply responded to a request for advice that you put out on the internet.

[Swamptribe]

Honestly, I've been in this type of situation before. How I responded was to quote the persons comments about me in a separate message, and analyze them (this happened on message boards, not blogs). Did this for several reasons. One, by quoting the persons own words, you show everyone what a jerk they are. You out them. It also preserves the text if they should decide to hide it by deleting. This also allows you to take control of the situation from them.

the problem is, they probably won't see what they wrote as wrong, offensive or judgmental. Instead they will claim you are somehow attacking them. So it may do absolutely no good to confront them. Your willingness to discuss the subject of religion with them is seen as you're wanting to be converted. Any frustration on your part is seen as an attack on them, and god. While their expression of frustration is just seen as their standing up for the lord.

The only real reason to confront this person at this point is to clarify for the people who read both your and her blog. It may just be time for you to walk away from the situation.

[Effie]

Sorry about your aunt, Effie. You're right, judging by appearance is not just idiotic but pure laziness. It's just an excuse not to bother getting to know the person. I once asked somebody I knew why he automatically assumed the worst/took a dislike to people at first sight, and he sneered at me that it "saved time".

Naah, but she was great. :) (I just never really saw the healthy in her. When she was "normal-functioning", I didn't see that. I dismissed things she said as being part of her illness, even when they were not. :/ She learned Swedish just so she could talk with me and my sisters. She cared about everyone, except herself.)

[Effie]

I made my comments based on an understanding that your exchange with B took place at a time that she was legally a child and you were legally an adult, and neither of you had any connection other than reading each other's thoughts on the internet. Personally, I think it would be discourteous at best, and somewhat creepy at worst, for a stranger to pretend to be convinced by a child's arguments, in the sole hope of gaining trust and using that trust to change the child's beliefs teach her about human rights, human worth and value.

I do not wish to impose my beliefs on her. I want her to understand her human worth and value, for example that it's perfectly fine for her to follow her own dreams (generationcedar.com/main/2012/04/why-im-not-teaching-my-children-to-follow-their-dreams.html) and that no one has the right to be in an authority over her and make decisions for her.

[Guest Anonymous]

Whoa - please do not edit my posts. Challenge me by all means, if you think I have misunderstood you, but please do not use quote marks to misrepresent what I have said.

I do not wish to impose my beliefs on her. I want her to understand her human worth and value, for example that it's perfectly fine for her to follow her own dreams (generationcedar.com/main/2012/04/why-im-not-teaching-my-children-to-follow-their-dreams.html) and that no one has the right to be in an authority over her and make decisions for her.

Fair enough. As I said in my earlier post, my responses were in line your request for advice within your original post.

[B5SnowDog]

I do not wish to impose my beliefs on her. I want her to understand her human worth and value, for example that it's perfectly fine for her to follow her own dreams (generationcedar.com/main/2012/04/why-im-not-teaching-my-children-to-follow-their-dreams.html) and that no one has the right to be in an authority over her and make decisions for her.

Purposefully misquoting someone else like that isn't really helping your case.

[Effie]

Annie, I put a streak there to make it obvious for you what I wanted to address. I added my correction thereafter because I wanted to be clear with you what I saw as a misunderstanding. I should have been clearer that it was my correction of your words, and not your exact words. I thought I was clear enough (I can see now that I wasn't). I was in a hurry (it was my birthday). Sorry.

Help my case with what? That I'm not a creepy stalker or an incompetent social worker?

[B5SnowDog]

Help my case with what? That I'm not a creepy stalker or an incompetent social worker?

That you're being reasonable when it comes to this thread.

[OkToBeTakei]

The misquoting thing is terrible. I really hate that. It shows nothing but ignorance.

Effie I have no advice to offer tbh. I think anniec was being helpful despite you maybe not wanting to hear it. Social conscience is good. Social conscience in regards to somebody you do not know and randomly met on the webs? Up to you, but I would not be invested.

[Guest Anonymous]

Annie, I put a streak there to make it obvious for you what I wanted to address. I added my correction thereafter because I wanted to be clear with you what I saw as a misunderstanding. I should have been clearer that it was my correction of your words, and not your exact words. I thought I was clear enough (I can see now that I wasn't). I was in a hurry (it was my birthday). Sorry.

Fair enough. I don't like deliberate misquotes because this conversation is not private, it is open to anyone to join in, and it leaves me open to being accidentally re-misquoted by others later down the line.

As an aside, I found your blog last night, using some keywords from the things you quoted, but as far as I can see, B has only commented on it a few times over the last year, and not at all over the last month. Are you sure she is as invested in this as you think she is?

[B5SnowDog]

Fair enough. I don't like deliberate misquotes because this conversation is not private, it is open to anyone to join in, and it leaves me open to being accidentally re-misquoted by others later down the line.

As an aside, I found your blog last night, using some keywords from the things you quoted, but as far as I can see, B has only commented on it a few times over the last year, and not at all over the last month. Are you sure she is as invested in this as you think she is?

Effie, why do you refer to her mother as your arch-enemy?

[Anise]

As someone who was raised fundie-lite and, like B, believed that the earth is six thousand years old, that the Bible is the ultimate authority, that abortion is evil, and the whole rest of it, I doubt that such an email would have made much impact on an 18 year-old me. The idea that they are right and superior to everyone else has been long pounded into them. They have been taught not to question or think critically: even the arguments they learn against things like evolution, they memorize rather than deduce for themselves.

My opinion is that you might clarify that you are continuing the conversation out of concern for her and not that you are open to being converted. But if you are not privvy to her personal situation beyond her blog, it would be presumptious to tell her that she is being abused.

[Effie]

Effie, why do you refer to her mother as your arch-enemy?

To emphasis my dislike. Overly dramatic term, I guess. Someone who brings a lot of children to the world and then take their dreams and goals away from them, is nothing other than cruel. Without dreams and goals, is there any hope? What does a person have to live for, if there's no hope?

Her opinions violate basic human rights. She thinks it's good to discriminate people. She is an enemy of human reason. Also this: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13768this. If people like her had their way, poor non-Christian people would starve to death.

Kelly: But I will also remind you that there is a HUGE advantage to belonging to the body of Christ where we are instructed to help “those of the household of faith†first.

God forbid if some of her tax money end up as a food stamp in the hands of a heathen... :roll:

She has written a child-rearing-book on how to house-proof her children... which means to beat the hell out of them. Someone who treats vulnerable people in her own care that way, is... well, my enemy.

As an aside, I found your blog last night, using some keywords from the things you quoted, but as far as I can see, B has only commented on it a few times over the last year, and not at all over the last month. Are you sure she is as invested in this as you think she is?

There's not much happening at my blog, so naturally there's not much to comment at.

Any more questions concerning my questionable judgement and what-not?

As a side-note, what's the point of discussing bloggers and their self-destructive ways, if we don't want to reach them somehow? I mean, shouldn't it be in our interest to at least try to talk reason with them?

[Guest Anonymous]

There's not much happening at my blog, so naturally there's not much to comment at.

Any more questions concerning my questionable judgement and what-not?

To set that comment in context, on first reading your OP, it appeared that you were at the climax of a long period of interaction with Bria and you had looked up her email address and wanted to send her an involved message offering support if/when she needs it. After reading through your various posts it seemed to me that there had been very little conversation between you at all, so I wondered what it was that was causing you to have a strong feeling of connection that you felt it difficult to 'let-go' of. You then mentioned that she is a commenter on your blog, so out of curiosity I looked it up and was surprised that she doesn't seem to have commented there very much or even very recently.

I'm intrigued by where your sense of attachment to Bria has come from, I suppose. Which is not really my business except that you did write about it on a public snark board and in posting what I did I was trying to help. I don't think there is anything wrong or questionable about you mulling a scenario over like this in an anonymous setting and I didn't say the things I did to try to get a rise out of you. However, I do genuinely think that it would be a bad idea to make actual contact, based on your very limited existing contact with her and all the details you have given about your professional life. If your aim in life it to use your social work career to reach out to people in need, then it is wise to try to keep your reputation intact. Most of the posters on this thread have urged caution in this situation. And we are people who are well-versed in the kinds of relationships and situations that develop online. I suspect that people who spend less time in cyberspace might find it even more odd than we do. I may well be totally wrong though, who knows? Ultimately, it's your call, and I wish you well.

As a side-note, what's the point of discussing bloggers and their self-destructive ways, if we don't want to reach them somehow? I mean, shouldn't it be in our interest to at least try to talk reason with them?

It depends on how you define 'interest'. There are all sorts of reasons I read and participate at FJ and I am pleased that many members and readers say that the discussions here have been helpful to them in coming out of fundiedom or thinking through 'fundie ideas' more generally. But I don't think that the primary reason for the board, or for my coming here, is to 'reach people', no.

[B5SnowDog]

To emphasis my dislike. Overly dramatic term, I guess.

Yes, I think is overly dramatic. It's one of the things that contributed to my impression that you were too invested with this woman.

As a side-note, what's the point of discussing bloggers and their self-destructive ways, if we don't want to reach them somehow? I mean, shouldn't it be in our interest to at least try to talk reason with them?

The point is to mock them and their self-destructive ways. This forum's focus is snarking on fundies, not educating them. If some of them happen to change their minds, that's great but it's not the main goal.

[rollmeover]

What I want to know is - how does an ibuprofen cure a cold any more than an onion on the feet?

If I had been "blessed" with an email like that I would have imagined the sender was mentally ill. It does not seem normal or usual to be that invested in a stranger and to see oneself as having a special role in re-educating the adult off-spring of an "arch enemy".

[OkToBeTakei]

I am totally confused. Is this B actually a Generation Cedar kid? The quote you used Effie totally confused me.

[Guest Anonymous]

I am totally confused. Is this B actually a Generation Cedar kid? The quote you used Effie totally confused me.

The eldest. She is an adult now, living as a sahd. 18 or 19.

[OkToBeTakei]

The eldest. She is an adult now, living as a sahd. 18 or 19.

Fucking no way?

Effie, no offence but you know this girl as well as I do, which is jack shit.

I kind of admire your zest for reaching people. But this is not the way to do it in my opinion. For one do you not live on the other side of the world? How can this girl in any way begin to relate to you? I do not understand your sense of responsibility at all. i could understand it if you were talking about people you were actually acquainted with. But not the internet. Also I would be very ,very wary of you using your professional skills in this manner. It is at best inadvisable and at worst will lose you your career.

Not sure what I make of this board. I find it challenging. I find it very interesting and I learn a lot on many levels. From idiocy to admiration. But I have no wish to 'Minister' to anybody. No idea why you feel the way you do about a perfect stranger who will have to make her own decision. I thought it was a neighbour or a friend of your teenage daughter the way you were speaking.

I find it really, really odd. Sorry to say.

[moodygirl86]

Fucking no way?

Effie, no offence but you know this girl as well as I do, which is jack shit.

I kind of admire your zest for reaching people. But this is not the way to do it in my opinion. For one do you not live on the other side of the world? How can this girl in any way begin to relate to you? I do not understand your sense of responsibility at all. i could understand it if you were talking about people you were actually acquainted with. But not the internet. Also I would be very ,very wary of you using your professional skills in this manner. It is at best inadvisable and at worst will lose you your career.

Not sure what I make of this board. I find it challenging. I find it very interesting and I learn a lot on many levels. From idiocy to admiration. But I have no wish to 'Minister' to anybody. No idea why you feel the way you do about a perfect stranger who will have to make her own decision. I thought it was a neighbour or a friend of your teenage daughter the way you were speaking.

I find it really, really odd. Sorry to say.

Seconded. The girl's not your responsibility. Let it go Effie, for the sake of your own sanity.