The daughter of my arch-enemy has been trying to save ME.

[Effie]

When I see a child who I believe has been harmed, I will try to reach out to her/him. I will not let go of her/him - in the first place. I just can't, even though I might not even like the person. I must have mentioned this before - that I care about a specific fundy child. Since I don't want B. to find this thread (if she would one day google her name), I will avoid using her name here (and I hope you will to). I am posting this here though, because I am asking you how to deal with someone who has been trying to minister to you - especially someone who you have been trying to reach for years (out of concern).

Yesterday I wanted to write an e-mail to her explaining my concerns. When I googled to find her e-mail address, I found the comments she had made about ministering to me. Anyway, I still intend to leave a final note and tell her where to find me, if she - in the future, wants to talk with someone... like a counselor. However, I'm not sure how to write such a message, especially considering the idea she has of me (that I'm a fool).

"If a wise man contends with a foolish man, whether he rage or laugh, there is no rest." Proverbs 29:9. "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect." 1 Peter 3:15

I read the top verse this morning and it made me think of 1 Peter 3:15 and what a fine line there is between giving others an answer of why we believe what we believe, and contending with a foolish man who only seeks to cause strife.

With the internet, we now have endless opportunities to minister to others but it has it's downfalls. I am engaged in a debate right now with a woman who was curious about my lifestyle, yet she is trying to tell me why it is wrong. On one hand, she has enough curiosity and humility that sometimes I think there is hope for her to understand and believe, yet she keeps coming at me with rebuttals for everything I try to explain with scripture.

Then I must remind myself that only God can quicken one's heart (Ephesians 2:5). Just something I was pondering. Thoughts?

Source: plus.google.com/114724957387885230144/posts/A6du8EVTXHt

The idea that she could minister to me, is nothing other than a tragic result of her "education". With my life experience and education, I simply can’t be convinced by a sheltered teenager whose only argument outside of the scripture is:

“I think a woman's dress says everything about her character…. A woman's dress reflects her identity.â€

That is just a lot of different statements following each other. You just can’t reason that way.

I thought I was getting to know her/bonding with her. Yet, at the same time I realize I couldn't help myself correcting some of her airy-fairy ideas.

Beth. Nov 9, 2012

Pro. 26:4 - Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

And Pro. 26:5 - Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

I've often thought about these verses, trying to understand why they would say a different message, but be so close.

In my opinion, I think it means that yes, you should try to correct or set straight a fool, but you must use discretion. If they do not except what you are trying to tell them, sometimes it's best to just leave off and go on with what is important than accomplishing nothing with your struggles and ending up looking like the fool himself.

That's my take! :)

BBBRRRIIIIAA

Nov 9, 2012

Haha, I read that the other day as well Bethany. Very interesting, and yes I agree. Discretion is tantamount to setting a fool straight.

[Effie]

Here's my take (I don't like it):

BRRRRIIIAAAA, I hope you are doing fine. You never answered the comment on my blog, but it matters little.

When I see a child who I believe has been harmed, I will try to reach out to her/him. Of course I would never start a conversation with “Hey, I suspect you have been abused. Do you want to talk about that?†Something that has almost confirmed my year-long suspicions is the following: “He must come to the point of brokenness, and desiring forgiveness.†Trying to break a person’s spirit is abusive. What your mother is addressing, in her child-rearing book, is nothing other than spiritual abuse.

I never intended to cause strife. I was trying to reach you. I most often find myself caring about people I normally wouldn’t like.While I probably should have played along and pretended to be convinced by your arguments in order for you to gain enough trust in me, I couldn’t. I don’t want to be responsible for deliberately and knowingly keeping you as ignorant – just like too many adults have done in your life already. Perhaps you somehow believed you were ministering to me at some point, which I realize I must have even encouraged. I wanted to see how you reason and argue for your sake. That’s the best way to value a person’s education. The debate we had about "modesty" convinced me to 99 % of educational neglect.

I’m a lot older than you and I have spent almost my whole grown-up-life at university, so it’s possible I expect too much from an 18-year-old. Yet, a basic education should provide an understanding for logic and reason. While there was little to no original thought in your arguments, I can see you tried with the means you had. You desperately want to seem “educated†but you have never been given the right tools. I consider educational neglect to be a serious form of neglect. To derive a child of a well-rounded education and mainly teach Christian beliefs instead, should never be acceptable. When it comes to subjects like biology, chemistry, evolution, political science, American and world history, philosophy, it seems you have been taught everything from one single view. That single view has had little to do with reality – if anything at all. Apparently you think the Victorian times were good times (your old blog) and that the earth is 6000 years old. If you can’t find evolution to be convincing, then leave that knowledge gap empty. There is no shame in not knowing. However, don’t try to fill that hole with something as creationism, which has no scientific value whatsoever. Do you understand what that means? It's humbug, just like the idea that onion on your feet will magically cure a cold. No, onion on your feet will only make your feet smelly. Take an Ibuprofen next time instead.

I don't like what I have come up with so far. It sounds rude and patronizing.

[Conuly]

Honestly, I don't think there IS a polite, non-aggressive way of addressing this comment, which wasn't addressed to you. I think replying to the comment, especially with anything more than a bland "I'm sorry you feel that way", is probably a mistake. It seems likely to make her less inclined to trust you, or to come to you if she ever feels any doubts about what she's been taught to believe. If she's insecure enough, it may cause her to not come to anybody with doubts.

Her stated attitude towards you is condescending, and certainly ignorant. Her beliefs aren't doing her any good. But if you want to help her, or even just be in a position to help her when the time comes, criticizing her comment directly is probably counterproductive. It may be better to just let her comment pass, and maybe giggle a little inside your own head about it.

It's one thing to have a general conversation where you disagree with her because she doesn't possess the facts. However, I don't see any good coming from stating outright that her parents lied to her, want to keep her ignorant, or are abusive. She doesn't want to hear that, especially if it's true. If you try, she'll retreat and you'll never get anywhere. And to say those things in a reply to a criticism of your actions and beliefs will discredit your argument entirely. It'll read like you're just lashing out because you're angry she's right and you're wrong. Which is absurd, but teenagers are like adults in that they are capable of believing very stupid things.

To sum up, I wouldn't address that specific comment. Ever. It won't help anything, and might do some harm.

[Effie]

I realize a reply like that most likely would do no good. I guess I'm just tired of not getting anywhere with her. I wanted to do something drastic... before I give up. I guess if she is still on her mission to minister to me, then she will continue reading my blog posts.

I can't come up with anything to write, so I think I will skip that. I mostly entertained the thought that I could write something enlightening. But yes, it would be cruel to tell her about the abuse I think she has suffered by the hands of her parents. I feel guilty for not intervening in some way - earlier, when she was still a child.

[salsa]

I realize a reply like that most likely would do no good. I guess I'm just tired of not getting anywhere with her. I wanted to do something drastic... before I give up. I guess if she is still on her mission to minister to me, then she will continue reading my blog posts.

I can't come up with anything to write, so I think I will skip that. I mostly entertained the thought that I could write something enlightening. But yes, it would be cruel to tell her about the abuse I think she has suffered by the hands of her parents. I feel guilty for not intervening in some way - earlier, when she was still a child.

I'm reminded how abused children often cling all the more tightly to their abusive parents. They're protective of them and very dependent on them. .... I hate that you feel guilty for not intervening, but there's a limit to what anyone could do, anyhow.

[debrand]

RRRRIIIAAAA, I hope you are doing fine. You never answered the comment on my blog, but it matters little.

When I see a child who I believe has been harmed, I will try to reach out to her/him. Of course I would never start a conversation with “Hey, I suspect you have been abused. Do you want to talk about that?†Something that has almost confirmed my year-long suspicions is the following: “He must come to the point of brokenness, and desiring forgiveness.†Trying to break a person’s spirit is abusive. What your mother is addressing, in her child-rearing book, is nothing other than spiritual abuse.

I never intended to cause strife. I was trying to reach you. I don’t want to be responsible for deliberately and knowingly keeping you as ignorant – just like too many adults have done in your life already

I think this part is all right. It has been many years since I was 18 but I think that the last sentence would have appealed to me.

Don't expect to see the results of your conversation but also don't doubt your effect on her. Sometimes it takes time to change thinking. All you can do know is keep planting little seeds for her to consider later.

Also, I think that it is a good idea to call her childhood abusive. She might view her childhood as normal but she needs to realize that not everyone agrees with her mother's methods

[Effie]

Salsa, good point. You're right. Debrand, thank you also for your advice. :) Actually I can tell one thing she must have learned from me. :D

[August]

I understand the impulse to defend yourself and strike back.

But (and I say this as someone who never even attempts to engage fundies because I have zero tolerance, so take it with a grain of salt), if you can bring yourself to not respond at all then you'll remain a "safe" person in her eyes and when she (hopefully) does try to break away from her parents, you could be someone she comes to for help. I'm reminded of the stories you see on no longer quivering. These girls have been taught to cling tighter to the religious stuff when they're challenged, but if she manages to start thinking for herself she's going to need someone to turn to for help, and you could be that person for her. If you aggressively oppose everything they're telling her then coming to you will be disloyal to them. If you're a caring uninvolved third party you're not such a rebellion. Does that make sense?

[Conuly]

Also, I think that it is a good idea to call her childhood abusive. She might view her childhood as normal but she needs to realize that not everyone agrees with her mother's methods

So why not say "that's not normal, there are other effective methods of discipline, the are other ways that work better"?

Saying "your parents are abusive" might be honest, but it's not helpful. She's not going to hear "because they didn't know better and were misled" or "they made mistakes because they want what's best, even though they're wrong" or "raising children is hard, especially when you have few resources". She'll interpret this, like everybody does, as "your parents were actively malicious liars who get off on hurting children". And even if that's the literal truth and the exact motivation for their parenting, nobody wants to believe that of their families! So they don't.

When it comes to the choice to call a spade a spade, the fact is you cannot be both right AND helpful. You have to make a choice. It's satisfying to say what you think, but it's helpful to just present the facts and let them come to their own conclusions later. Think of every single spanking debate ever. Has anybody after the fact EVER said "yes, my parents were abusive and so was I, thank you" in response to being called out on hitting their kids? Have they ever resolved to mend their ways and find another method of discipline if they planned on doing what they're used to?

In real life it's not true about catching more flies with honey (try it one day), but in arguments it's worth a shot.

[Effie]

When it comes to the choice to call a spade a spade, the fact is you cannot be both right AND helpful. You have to make a choice. It's satisfying to say what you think, but it's helpful to just present the facts and let them come to their own conclusions later. Think of every single spanking debate ever. Has anybody after the fact EVER said "yes, my parents were abusive and so was I, thank you" in response to being called out on hitting their kids? Have they ever resolved to mend their ways and find another method of discipline if they planned on doing what they're used to?

I understand the impulse to defend yourself and strike back. But (and I say this as someone who never even attempts to engage fundies because I have zero tolerance, so take it with a grain of salt), if you can bring yourself to not respond at all then you'll remain a "safe" person in her eyes and when she (hopefully) does try to break away from her parents, you could be someone she comes to for help. I'm reminded of the stories you see on no longer quivering. These girls have been taught to cling tighter to the religious stuff when they're challenged, but if she manages to start thinking for herself she's going to need someone to turn to for help, and you could be that person for her. If you aggressively oppose everything they're telling her then coming to you will be disloyal to them. If you're a caring uninvolved third party you're not such a rebellion. Does that make sense?

I don't think I will write anything directly to her. I have earlier written some "informative" blog posts, with the intention to inform/educate her. So it's possible something I write makes her think.

August and Conuly, are you saying that I shouldn't oppose ideas which I disagree with? Should I pretend to agree with her (for example that homosexuality is a sin or that women dressed as "sluts" are "very cheap to win over") to win her over? I guess you could say I have passive-aggressively opposed a lot of her opinions/ideas... for example:

B.: Kids are taught at grade 8 how babies come into the world. Do you think our culture and schools care in the least what men think about women? No, in fact they encourage it.

Effie: I was taught at grade 8 how babies come into the world. I think they start just as early in Western Europe, where they have the lowest abortion rates in the world. I would not easily dismiss the importance of giving kids proper sexual education. If we want to avoid unwanted pregnancies, it makes sense to teach kids that sex is not just about sex, but about the possibility of creating a life. When kids know the facts, they know how to be cautious. Look at the Netherlands, which has the world's lowest abortion rate. They sure don’t have any abstinence-education there. The same goes with the rest of the countries in western Europe, where the abortion rate is at 12 per 1000 women of childbearing age: http://data.euro.who.int/hfadb/. (I don’t know if you have access to scientific data-bases. I found a bunch of peer-reviewed scientific publications, which I could send in PDF, if you would like to know more about the issue.)

Another example of mine (ooops :oops: ):

Effie: It seems like your interpretation of “the biblical separation from the world†stretches so far that you think you should separate yourself from non-believers (people of the world) by disapproving everything non-Christians have ever said or done? Instead of reading thought-provoking literature and approved scientific books, you read books from an “approved†world-view where the most "advanced" book (Pushing the Antithesis) in fact refers to Wikipedia. A book which relies on Wikipedia is less scientific than my papers from the senior level of compulsory school (and that's definitely not because I wrote good papers back then…). That is exactly why you should read books outside of your world-view.

Books from a single world-view do not represent reality. If you want to learn about reality, you have to read everything and anything. You should be reading challenging books which makes you THINK, since your brain is not fully developed yet. You have 6,5 years left (until 25). Care about that precious mind of yours, so that you will reach your true potential. You need to stimulate your intellect with right interventions.

[Guest Anonymous]

What is the background to your relationship with her? From that google page it looks like she is a young adult rather than a child, and from your conversation it looks like you are two women of a not massively dissimilar age, each trying to 'minister' to the other.

I totally get what you are trying to do and I agree with you that she has been abused, but I'm not sure that there is much you can do if another adult doesn't want to be 'reached' in this way. As a 19 year old Christian many moons ago, I would have totally been batting scriptures at someone like you. :)

I don't mean to be negative but I'm just not sure how much can be achieved online, if the other party doesn't see you as a friend.

[thetabmeister]

As a former fundie myself, I can attest to the fact that when a person has made up his/her mind, they are simply unchangeable. I guess in order to give any advice from my own experience on how to guide someone else out of the cult, I'd have to draw on my own journey out of it. One of the hardest things about it, though, has been seeing what the actual triggers were which prompted me to change my mind about some things and start seeking alternative viewpoints that I actually came up with on my own, not what was spoonfed to me by my parents and church. Ok, I'm sitting here thinking hard, and I'll tell you the one thing that has occurred to me as being the most valuable in causing me to re-evaluate my unwavering-thefundiewayistheonlyway views: it was my non-fundie friends. And I don't blame you at all for trying to discuss things reasonably with her, but if she's not prepared to get it, there is absolutely no way--I mean, your arguments, no matter how logical, won't even begin to set in. They just won't. It isn't anything you're doing wrong, though; it's her mental roadblocks. My best advice would be to try to catch her in a way she's not ready for. She's expecting you to oppose or disagree with her beliefs, and she most likely won't be humbled or moved by your kindness, patience, wisdom, logic, or fairness in presenting your viewpoint. So just be a friend. Be in her life as much as possible and be your normal self (pro-choice, pro-equality, just everything you stand for) let it ooze out like the light or the rain and just be yourself. At the same time, be interested in her and be the best possible friend. Don't try to argue things anymore. That is one thing fundies will respect. As soon as they feel the pressure off of you trying to convert them, they may (I know I did) reciprocate by involuntarily letting off the pressure of trying to convert *you,* and may just ease into a kind of friendship where you both seem "ok" with each other for now. I'm sure that's probably tough because you don't want to let her think you are actually ok with her life, but she knows enough about you now to know where you stand on things, and she needs to feel like you value and respect her above all else. That's something we fundie young women didn't get from our parents, pastors, or anyone else. We didn't get genuine love, respect, kindness, and interest. If she gets that from you, she *may* unconsciously start breaking down those barriers that stand between her way of thinking and yours. Above all, you will be proving to her (tho she likely won't see it this way at first) how much better your lifestyle and worldview is than hers, how much more meaningful and sensible it is. I'm pretty sure that it's through people like you who treated *me* that way--mainly co-workers, I might add--that I began my first steps out of fundie-dom. (<--seriously want to add another "dumb" to the end of that word)

Hope this helps, and it was meant most kindly and encouragingly. :)

[Effie]

What is the background to your relationship with her? From that google page it looks like she is a young adult rather than a child, and from your conversation it looks like you are two women of a not massively dissimilar age, each trying to 'minister' to the other.

I totally get what you are trying to do and I agree with you that she has been abused, but I'm not sure that there is much you can do if another adult doesn't want to be 'reached' in this way. As a 19 year old Christian many moons ago, I would have totally been batting scriptures at someone like you. :)

She is 18, so I still consider her to be a child. However, I realize the international definition of a child is "a human being under 18 years of age". (I probably should use the definition found in the Convention on the Rights of the Child.) I have followed her blogs since she was a kid (11-12 years old?), so I have always seen her as a child. I have commented rarely, more so during the last year, I guess. Originally I think I followed her and her mother's blogs out of horror/fascination, especially considering her mother was like a cave-woman to me (I had never found anyone with such airy-fairy ideas before). Later I mainly followed B. and her mother's blog(s) out of concern (sympathy) for B. I learned that I possibly even disliked B.(several of her opinions violate human rights, and I have little tolerance for that), but I couldn't stop caring about her. Perhaps because she is almost in the same age as my little sister? The idea that my little sisters would never be able to follow their dreams (they have many, many dreams) is heart-breaking.

While, I'm "just" 6 years older than her, it feels like it's a lot more. I don't know if you found the conversation on my blog. To have a debate, while constantly referring to the Bible, feels awkward and divorced from reality to me. I'm not more Christian than d'Holbach. I'm an atheist who doesn't know a single Christian in real life except my aunt (yes, Christians are so rare in my society). I don't understand how you can use the Bible as a proof for anything, so I don't know how to do so 'seriously'. I will agree that I didn't sound my age in the debate. It was very awkward.

[Guest Anonymous]

I haven't seen your blog, only the comments on the google page, so I wasn't passing comment on the maturity or otherwise of your interaction with her. I was guessing your age just based on things you have said about yourself being a college student.

I don't know that there is anything else you can do for the reasons I gave earlier. The law recognises her as an adult and she chooses to stay in the only lifestyle she has ever known. I feel for her and I feel that she has only ever had bounded choices about how to live her life but it it what it is, unfortunately. Of course she is trying to save you; that is her mission in life.

[B5SnowDog]

I have followed her blogs since she was a kid (11-12 years old?), so I have always seen her as a child. I have commented rarely, more so during the last year, I guess. Originally I think I followed her and her mother's blogs out of horror/fascination, especially considering her mother was like a cave-woman to me (I had never found anyone with such airy-fairy ideas before). Later I mainly followed B. and her mother's blog(s) out of concern (sympathy) for B. I learned that I possibly even disliked B.(several of her opinions violate human rights, and I have little tolerance for that), but I couldn't stop caring about her.

If I read this correctly, you don't actually have a relationship with this young woman, you just follow her blog (if I'm wrong, please correct me). Honestly, I think you may be getting overly-involved with her. If I were in her position, I wouldn't put much weight on anything you say any more than I would other commenters. I think you'd be less frustrated if you just let it go.

[Guest Anonymous]

Effie, I've re-read this thread now that you have clarified a few things and I agree with B5Snowdog that you seem to be over-involved here.

I don't know whether some things are being lost in translation because English is not your first language, but your draft letter/email to B. doesn't read at all well to me, especially since you have clarified that you only 'know' this woman in the context of following her online since she was a pre-teen. It's not just rude and patronising as you yourself admit - honestly, some parts of it sound plain creepy and bordering on stalkerish, particularly in the way that you are admitting that while B was a child you as an unrelated adult engaged with her and pretended to be persuaded by her arguments in order to win her trust.

If you send anything remotely like that to her and include your real name and contact details, she and her family may well take action against you. If at anytime you have told her that you are a trainee sw then they might well also report you for harassment.

I'm sorry to put it so bluntly; it seems as though you are well-intentioned but looking in on the situation from the outside it doesn't seem like a good idea to pursue this.

In this context, I am also a little alarmed that you say that you "won't let go" of people you care about. I think it is a good thing generally to be able to set boundaries and respect others' boundaries. For a social worker, it is an absolutely imperative thing.

BRRRRIIIAAAA, I hope you are doing fine. You never answered the comment on my blog, but it matters little.

When I see a child who I believe has been harmed, I will try to reach out to her/him. Of course I would never start a conversation with “Hey, I suspect you have been abused. Do you want to talk about that?†Something that has almost confirmed my year-long suspicions is the following: “He must come to the point of brokenness, and desiring forgiveness.†Trying to break a person’s spirit is abusive. What your mother is addressing, in her child-rearing book, is nothing other than spiritual abuse.

I never intended to cause strife. I was trying to reach you. I most often find myself caring about people I normally wouldn’t like.While I probably should have played along and pretended to be convinced by your arguments in order for you to gain enough trust in me, I couldn’t. I don’t want to be responsible for deliberately and knowingly keeping you as ignorant – just like too many adults have done in your life already. Perhaps you somehow believed you were ministering to me at some point, which I realize I must have even encouraged. I wanted to see how you reason and argue for your sake. That’s the best way to value a person’s education. The debate we had about "modesty" convinced me to 99 % of educational neglect.

I’m a lot older than you and I have spent almost my whole grown-up-life at university, so it’s possible I expect too much from an 18-year-old. Yet, a basic education should provide an understanding for logic and reason. While there was little to no original thought in your arguments, I can see you tried with the means you had. You desperately want to seem “educated†but you have never been given the right tools. I consider educational neglect to be a serious form of neglect. To derive a child of a well-rounded education and mainly teach Christian beliefs instead, should never be acceptable. When it comes to subjects like biology, chemistry, evolution, political science, American and world history, philosophy, it seems you have been taught everything from one single view. That single view has had little to do with reality – if anything at all. Apparently you think the Victorian times were good times (your old blog) and that the earth is 6000 years old. If you can’t find evolution to be convincing, then leave that knowledge gap empty. There is no shame in not knowing. However, don’t try to fill that hole with something as creationism, which has no scientific value whatsoever. Do you understand what that means? It's humbug, just like the idea that onion on your feet will magically cure a cold. No, onion on your feet will only make your feet smelly. Take an Ibuprofen next time instead.

[Conuly]

August and Conuly, are you saying that I shouldn't oppose ideas which I disagree with? Should I pretend to agree with her (for example that homosexuality is a sin or that women dressed as "sluts" are "very cheap to win over") to win her over? I guess you could say I have passive-aggressively opposed a lot of her opinions/ideas... for example:

You can do whatever you like. If she's saying something offensive or wrong, and you are close to her, then you probably should let her know you disagree with her and why. But there is a difference between "I haven't seen any evidence that hitting your child is very effective, I know a lot of nice people whose parents never hit them, and you could've been one of them. I'm sure they wanted what's best, and I understand it's hard to do something different from how you were raised, but here is some information on other ways to get the same results, or even better ones" and "your parents are horrible abusive monsters, and only evil people who hate kids would ever hit them", in the same way that there is a difference between "I think that style of dress is a little skimpy and immodest" and "that slut dresses like a whore". Even if you agree with the latter of either pair of statements, it's not very helpful in convincing others. Does that make sense? I'm awful at finding the effective way to phrase things (even when I care to bother, which lets face it, isn't always the case), but as I get older I am realizing that sometimes forthright and blunt isn't the best method. It ought to be, but people can be so... I don't know.

[debrand]

The way you worded this does sound better to me

Speaking only for my own situation-which might not be anything like this young woman's- I was often told how much my mother loved and sacrificed for me. The opposite was true. The few people who did express any negativity about my mother met with my defensiveness. However, the people whose words effected me the most were those same people who were straight forward with me. It just took a long time for me to acknowledge that what they said was correct.

Unlike fundie children, I wasn't trained to view people who disagreed with me as automatic enemies. The way to reach young Debrand might not be the same way that would help a fundamentalist. In all honesty, I don't think that a random person commenting on my blog would have had any effect on me at all.

[Effie]

Annie, I was a teenager when I first found her blog. I have not followed her blogs that frequently; once a month to twice a year.

I wrote this:

I don’t want to be responsible for deliberately and knowingly keeping you as ignorant.

--- I have not pretended to be persuaded by her arguments (I suggested that perhaps I should have).

I have commented rarely, more so during the last year.

I haven't engaged with her much until the last year. I wrote this above.

In this context, I am also a little alarmed that you say that you "won't let go" of people you care about. I think it is a good thing generally to be able to set boundaries and respect others' boundaries. For a social worker, it is an absolutely imperative thing.

When I said I "won't let go" I meant; I won't let go - in the first place. When I started this topic, I admitted that I felt discouraged to engage any further with her. Therefore I asked for advice on how to write a message, expressing/explaining my concerns for her. I would never have sent that message, as it was written originally, which is why I guess I asked for tips. That 'letter' was random frustrated thoughts put together. I admit I was affected by the ministering-thing.

[B5SnowDog]

I wrote this: --- I have not pretended to be persuaded by her arguments (I suggested that perhaps I should have).

The bolded sentence is why I said you seemed overly-involved with this blogger. You have no responsibility for this young woman and it's not your job to educate her.

[Guest Anonymous]

I wrote this:

--- I have not pretended to be persuaded by her arguments (I suggested that perhaps I should have).

Sorry I misunderstood that part. I can see now that you were saying the opposite of what I thought. It sounds a bit creepy though to suggest that you could have pretended if you had wanted. It sounds as though you are congratulating yourself for not doing a wrong thing... which you as an adult should never have entertained doing to a child anyway.

On all the other issues I raised, I remain concerned about your approach. I know you say you are asking for ideas about the best way to frame your ideas but honestly I'd say the best approach would be to take a step back for a while. The idea of "not being the first to let go" still sits uncomfortably with me. I don't think there is anything relationship-wise for you to let go of. She doesn't view you as a friend now and never has. There is no 'bond' to break.

You are both adults now (what the law says about that is quite pertinent even if you prefer to hold your own personal definition). You are free to comment on her blog and she is free to block you. But I'd say googling her address and sending your contact details would be over-stepping the mark in this instance. She's made it clear she's not interested and you need to back off.

[moodygirl86]

Effie, I don't think it would be possible for you to be any more patronising to her than she's been towards you. But can any FJers think of any good arguments as to how you definitely CANNOT judge a woman (or a man) by how they dress? I would probably point out something along the lines of how many convicted serial killers/paedophiles didn't exactly come with a neon sign on their head, but I doubt that would fly...

[lilith]

Effie, I don't think it would be possible for you to be any more patronising to her than she's been towards you. But can any FJers think of any good arguments as to how you definitely CANNOT judge a woman (or a man) by how they dress? I would probably point out something along the lines of how many convicted serial killers/paedophiles didn't exactly come with a neon sign on their head, but I doubt that would fly...

I would simply point out that dress and modesty are informed by society and culture - what seems immodest and brazen to one culture is demure and normal to another, and we all have prejudices as a result of the culture we grew up in, but it's not helpful to think in absolutes.

[moodygirl86]

Thanks Lilith! That's a far more diplomatic and less confrontational way of putting it than I could think of!

[Effie]

Sorry I misunderstood that part. I can see now that you were saying the opposite of what I thought. It sounds a bit creepy though to suggest that you could have pretended if you had wanted. It sounds as though you are congratulating yourself for not doing a wrong thing... which you as an adult should never have entertained doing to a child anyway.

That was not meant to be self-congratulatory. On the other hand, what is so creepy/wrong about agreeing with arguments you don't agree with? People do so all the time. Some people do so in order to avoid conflict (they just don't have the energy to keep up a debate), or simply because they want to encourage the other person to keep developing her own opinions.

She's made it clear she's not interested and you need to back off.

Backing off would mean not responding to the comments on my own blog, or what? Because that's where we have had our main conversations. Yes, writing an e-mail is unnecessary, but I don't really get what I should back off from (except backing off from the idea to write an e-mail). It's my blog. I should be able to write whatever I want there.

On all the other issues I raised, I remain concerned about your approach. I know you say you are asking for ideas about the best way to frame your ideas but honestly I'd say the best approach would be to take a step back for a while. The idea of "not being the first to let go" still sits uncomfortably with me. I don't think there is anything relationship-wise for you to let go of. She doesn't view you as a friend now and never has. There is no 'bond' to break.

I don't consider her to be a friend either. I am concerned about her well-being, but I'm not so much concerned about having a good relation with her. I don't really want to, other than that I consider it to be sort of a responsibility.

I think there's a 'bond' between all people in a society - a 'bond' of responsibility. Children/youths in a society are not just the parent's concern - it's the society's concern. If I notice someone who isn't doing well, then I have a responsibility to do something. If I don't, I break a 'bond'. That's just how I see things.