ISB, but I wonder if Smuggar is straying from Gothard?

[xDreamerx]

The TV, Mack in Jeans, Anna's haircut. Maybe they're going to relax on Gothard and the legalism. They also have a cat. I heard Gothard is against having pets. I wonder if maybe their relaxing a bit. They would never admit to this on TV, but does anyone else have thoughts on this?

[formergothardite]

Most people raised in ATI stray when they get out of the grip of their parents. I think that if Smugger would move away not depend on daddy he would do a lot more non-approved things. He would probably have a lot of guilt and worry that he is doing the wrong thing, but most ex-ATIers, when they begin getting out on their own, they begin to learn that Gothard isn't God.

[bananacat]

The Duggars used to have pets in some of the earlier specials, so I don't think they ever subscribed to that particular Gothardism.

But I think Anna's family has always been a slightly lighter version of fundie than the Duggars, and since Anna is doing the bulk of the childcare work I guess she gets to pick the clothes. I think some of Anna's sisters kids wore jeans too, even the girls. I think they are more lenient with very young girls but Mack will probably end up skirts-only by the time she hits puberty. I think there's also a Gothard wisdom booklet that girls get around age 6 that teaches about defrauding so if they use that homeschool curriculum maybe Mack will switch to skirts-only at that point, along with any younger sisters that she may have by then. I think that some of the kids before Jill had sort of normal childhoods with normal clothes and normal birthday parties before their parents really went down the ultra-fundie road around the time the oldest started homeschool. So I think that will be a turning point for Anna and Smuggar and they'll either go ultra-fundie or turn fundie-lite.

[tabitha2]

Lets remember they are also VF followers and Vision forum has no problem with those things.They may start to follow that group more but both organisations believe basically the same tenants on Patriarchy,home schooling ,child training, etc.The difference is just outward.

[lilwriter85]

Lets remember they are also VF followers and Vision forum has no problem with those things.They may start to follow that group more but both organisations believe basically the same tenants on Patriarchy,home schooling ,child training, etc.The difference is just outward.

I think they will probably follow both groups to certain extents and keep on with the traditions of patriarchy, homeschooling etc. I could see Josh and Anna turn fundie lite.

[tabitha2]

Exactly.IMO,I don't think it's realistic to expect Anna to suddenly go to college or have a career and they will,almost certainly, have a normal size family for their set-8 or 10 is the usual.But jeans,some TV ,shorter hair will be things they embrace also.

[nutella addict]

Didn't Anna already go to college and get a degree in Christian Education or something? And I reckon Josh will never let patriarchy go, and probably prays about what TV will be acceptable, or at least tells Anna that God told him they could watch it. And it could also be that Anna/Mack wear jeans in private but try to put on a public appearance of Gothard-approved clothing. I also suspect that Mack is still so young it's ok to dress her in pants sometimes, but that they might tighten up when she's older, and we'll have to wait and see.

[lilwriter85]

Didn't Anna already go to college and get a degree in Christian Education or something? And I reckon Josh will never let patriarchy go, and probably prays about what TV will be acceptable, or at least tells Anna that God told him they could watch it. And it could also be that Anna/Mack wear jeans in private but try to put on a public appearance of Gothard-approved clothing. I also suspect that Mack is still so young it's ok to dress her in pants sometimes, but that they might tighten up when she's older, and we'll have to wait and see.

Yes, Anna did go to college and a get a degree. But I heard someone that it was online degree and then another story about her degree was the the Christian college she attended had a sketchy reputation. I think someone here will clarify.

Josh probably does pray what programs on TV will be acceptable. I wonder if Josh and Anna have cable.

[xDreamerx]

Yes, Anna did go to college and a get a degree. But I heard someone that it was online degree and then another story about her degree was the the Christian college she attended had a sketchy reputation. I think someone here will clarify.

Josh probably does pray what programs on TV will be acceptable. I wonder if Josh and Anna have cable.

If I recall correctly, she did do ECE through a "college" but it was some sort of online Christian thing, probably not much different than College Minus. She said it in that radio interview she gave with Michelle a while ago.

[marmalade]

Didn't Anna already go to college and get a degree in Christian Education or something?

She confirmed on that radio show podcast that she got a distance-learning degree of some sort (she didn't specify AA or BA, I'd guess the former) in ECE. The institution is not accredited and she says she did it so she could be a better homeschool teacher.

[BlackHawk]

She confirmed on that radio show podcast that she got a distance-learning degree of some sort (she didn't specify AA or BA, I'd guess the former) in ECE. The institution is not accredited and she says she did it so she could be a better homeschool teacher.

I'm no fan of the Duggars.. but Good for Anna. She at least attempted to get MORE knowledge for homeschooling.

[forever ago]

Considering what I've learned of Gothard just from being on FJ (I'd never heard of him before) it sounds like a lot of people stray from his teachings at some point. Then again, it's hard not to...

Now that Smuggar is on his own and doesn't have to listen to his parents, he probably will stray from Gothard. I did read somewhere (maybe another FJ thread) that only 1% of ATI students keep following Gothard's teachings.

[xDreamerx]

Yeah...I think that was in the thread on ATI education or the article maybe. In any case, I hope more Duggars follow when they move out.

[FloraDoraDolly]

Considering what I've learned of Gothard just from being on FJ (I'd never heard of him before) it sounds like a lot of people stray from his teachings at some point. Then again, it's hard not to...

Now that Smuggar is on his own and doesn't have to listen to his parents, he probably will stray from Gothard. I did read somewhere (maybe another FJ thread) that only 1% of ATI students keep following Gothard's teachings.

Does anyone have a link to this or any other study/article with details about how many ATI-raised kids stray from Gothard as adults?

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Remember, Josh is the only one who can possibly remember life before ATI in the Duggar family. He had a mom who WORKED and at least at his Grandparents and Aunts' homes he probably watched tv and videos.

They may also just decide they don't need all the legalism. Everyone here seems to think they are just uneducated hicks, but they are young adults like any other--questioning what they were taught to believe. Perfectly normal in the early 20s to try a different way. Not all ATI families wear skirts only AT HOME. They certainly do at ATI events, but some are more "liberal" about that at home. (I know an ATI family who lets their teenage daughter wear a size-bigger tankini bathing suit!). Gothard doesn't say NO tv at all--just a very severe limit on it, with no tv recommended. I assume this is to "wean" you off tv when you start the program.

Gothard doesn't recommend pets, but Josh and Anna are hardly the first to have a pet. The Bates have several and the Duggars have outdoor cats.

The truth will out in a couple of years when Mack has to start school. Homeschool? ATI homeschool? Christian school? That's when they will have to decide what they really want for their children.

[tabitha2]

I agree but Anna already says is going to home school-that's why she got more education in the first place.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

I agree but Anna already says is going to home school-that's why she got more education in the first place.

I know she's said that, but we won't know what they choose in the way of homeschooling till they start. They may or may not choose to use ALL the ATI materials. A lot of families DO use the Character Sketch books--moralistic stories that show character qualities, but skip the Wisdom booklets. So, who knows! Maybe Mack will get ATI-lite!

[homeschoolmomma1]

when did mac where jeans?

[lexiloumarie]

when did mac where jeans?

In Thanksgiving pictures Suze posted.

picasaweb.google.com/suzie.g2992/Thanksgiving#5545377432110250242

[homeschoolmomma1]

Gosh all trhese changes soon Josh will be getting a subscribtion to playboy!

[jesusfreak]

Gosh all trhese changes soon Josh will be getting a subscribtion to playboy!

He already prayed to God about it, and surprisingly God told him it was okay.

[blisterine]

i think god is telling me to redeem some swagbucks for a subscription to maxim, to be sent to the car lot.

if god leads your heart to agree with me, let me know.

[cjsmom]

i think god is telling me to redeem some swagbucks for a subscription to maxim, to be sent to the car lot.

if god leads your heart to agree with me, let me know.

OMG yes!

[Kitten]

He's good at the talk, but I'm guessing that if he didn't depend on JB for his living and lived further away, Josh would be a lot more fundie-lite. Basically, that's because I think he's too lazy to seriously attend to all the little ATI details Gothard requires.

However, between the TV show and dad's ownership of his businesses, Josh has to be seen to be the shining ATI star son. The BRAND demands it...and his greed for the "good life" pretty much ensures his compliance, at least on the surface.

[marmalade]

Agreed that as long as the cameras are on, he'll toe the line and won't do anything to rock the Gothard boat. Both Smugs and Anna have made and done some things that are pretty offensive (remember the Obamacare ambulance in his car lot and the "I drive a Hummer but use CLOTH DIAPERS" crap?).

Even after the cameras are gone, I don't think they'll stray far from ATI (maybe SOS and the wisdom booklet combo the Duggars now do), because let's face it, even if Smuggar is renting to own his house and car lots, he's under his daddy's and grammy's thumbs for many, many years to come. Not like Boob would even give his own son a discount when he is such a smarmy used car salesman at heart. He'll only be generous if it makes him money or gives him a tax break.