The Gospel Message with JukeboxLucky

[formergothardite]

This is a spin-off from the other thread, but I really would like to discuss this and I will be as respectful as I can.

JukeboxLucky is a pastor who posts here and insists that the way she presents the Gospel story would in no way scare children. I can actually see why she would think this because until I left religion I didn't see it either. From the time I was born I was told all about being a sinner, Jesus dying, needing to accept Him to go to heaven, none of those stories scared me because I was pretty much immune to the horror of hell, death and being born a wicked person.

But to children who are raised to believe differently, these things can be scary. The pictures from the OCC tract that are posted in the other thread are something my older daughter would find very disturbing. She already got upset when a child at school told her about Jesus dying on the cross for her sins and she has to believe in him to go to heaven.

Maybe Lucky does have a gospel presentation that isn't scary. I guess "God loves you just the way you are" wouldn't be a scary way to present God's love, but I also don't view that as the Gospel story. Maybe she does, though.

But since Lucky has stated she isn't going to stop telling children the gospel story or handing them tracts, IMO, the decent thing for her to do is to at least look at if what she is doing can scare children. Maybe if she finds out she scares children it won't bother her and she won't change anything, but then at least she cannot claim that she isn't scaring children. Maybe she will want to change. Maybe she won't need to change because she is correct and she isn't doing anything that could possibly bother a child.

I can't pm her a link to this and she has it set where you can't see the last time she visited, but hopefully she will see this and be willing to participate. If she isn't willing, perhaps she should do some soul searching to see why.

Link to the other thread:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13968

[debrand]

When I was a child, my mother emphasized(emphasised?) that Jesus was a sweet guy who liked little kids and helped people. His death was not something that I heard as much about. When we discussed it, it was more that people were unjust to him and killed him but that he was immortal so it worked out in the end. Vacation bible school talked about god loving everyone.

It took going to adult church with my mom to scare the living daylights out of me. As a child, I didn't really understand that being a Christian meant that you thought everyone should agree with you. For some reason, I had the strange idea that god didn't require people to believe in him. Like I said, it was other adults who used hell to frighten me and their reasoning wasn't because they thought I was bad but they wanted to explain 'real' salvation to me.

Jesus the sweet guy who likes kids is not scary. Jesus the guy that died sins so that we have a choice between heaven and hell is really frightening. And no, I used not to see the second Jesus as scary either.

[She Who Laughs]

Sometimes things are scary or disturbing but that doesn't mean we shouldn't teach our children about them. You don't think it's scary to teach kids about adults who might want to touch them in appropriate ways? And that these adults might be someone they love and trust. Or how about teaching them that there are people out there that might want to snatch them off the streets and steal them away from their parents? And these same adults might use tricky ways to do that, like telling them they lost their puppy and need help finding it. Then there's teaching kids how to escape a burning a house or how to stop, drop and roll if they are on fire. I had nightmares for months after a fireman visited our school and taught us about escaping our bedrooms in case of a fire. And tornadoes are a big thing in my area and we had tornado drills and saw videos about tornadoes and how dangerous they are. Should we just not teach children about things that are scary?

For a Christian, not teaching a child about what Jesus did on the cross would be a thousand times worse than not teaching them about inappropriate touching, stranger danger, fires or tornadoes, since we believe the soul is something that lives on forever and is even more important than the human body and life on earth which is just temporary.

[BravaAmica]

I like how my church presents the gospel to children. (I attend a Unity church, it's a New Thought denomination.) The youth ed starts with learning about God's love and Jesus' miracles. They focus on that, and how the kids can apply that in their own lives (in simple terms, like being thankful or being kind). This is done from nursery to middle school. His crucifiction is addressed thus: he died not "for our sins" but to show us that he triumphed over death because he was one with God and so he came back. No mention is ever made of original sin or evil and graphic descriptions of him on the cross are avoided. The youth ed emphasizes practical application of one's values. It's also a safe space for the kids to ask ANY questions they have without shame or judgement.

No one ever says, "You're a horrible sinner, everything you think is wrong, THIS IS THE ONLY WAY YOU ARE SAVED." There are kids in the youth ed program (like my son) that are wondering if they believe in God or not. And that's fine. The instructors allow him to voice his opinions and the safe space to explore his own beliefs. One of the things I treasure about my church is that they value all paths to God. They never say, "You're wrong, too bad you're going to hell!" More like, "You're Jewish...Muslim...Atheist...Pagan..Catholic...Evangelical... That's great! Welcome! Hang out and stay for coffee!"

For a Christian, not teaching a child about what Jesus did on the cross would be a thousand times worse than not teaching them about inappropriate touching, stranger danger, fires or tornadoes, since we believe the soul is something that lives on forever and is even more important than the human body and life on earth which is just temporary.

Speak for yourself. Don't paint this Christian your guilt and fear.

[Arete]

Speak for yourself. Don't paint this Christian your guilt and fear.

Seconded.

[Guest Anonymous]

I was afraid of a lot of things as a child, but Bible stories never scared me per se. I did find Jesus incredibly smug and unlikable, and I was terrified that I would get in trouble if anyone found out.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Sometimes things are scary or disturbing but that doesn't mean we shouldn't teach our children about them. You don't think it's scary to teach kids about adults who might want to touch them in appropriate ways? And that these adults might be someone they love and trust. Or how about teaching them that there are people out there that might want to snatch them off the streets and steal them away from their parents? And these same adults might use tricky ways to do that, like telling them they lost their puppy and need help finding it. Then there's teaching kids how to escape a burning a house or how to stop, drop and roll if they are on fire. I had nightmares for months after a fireman visited our school and taught us about escaping our bedrooms in case of a fire. And tornadoes are a big thing in my area and we had tornado drills and saw videos about tornadoes and how dangerous they are. Should we just not teach children about things that are scary?

For a Christian, not teaching a child about what Jesus did on the cross would be a thousand times worse than not teaching them about inappropriate touching, stranger danger, fires or tornadoes, since we believe the soul is something that lives on forever and is even more important than the human body and life on earth which is just temporary.

First of all, child molestation, severe weather, and fast-moving cars are provable facts. Teaching children about them is necessary even if they can be scary. Religious ideas about life after death are just not provable, no matter what you believe, and not everyone agrees that there is a place called Hell or that a man named Jesus can save you from it. While it is necessary for schools to teach kids about the dangers of fires in case the parents haven't (for example), it is not excusable to scare other people's kids with something that may or may not be real. So your comparison is invalid.

Second, I'm not really shocked that a child abuse apologist is all about scaring kids with the threat of eternal hellfire.

[debrand]

Sometimes things are scary or disturbing but that doesn't mean we shouldn't teach our children about them. You don't think it's scary to teach kids about adults who might want to touch them in appropriate ways? And that these adults might be someone they love and trust. Or how about teaching them that there are people out there that might want to snatch them off the streets and steal them away from their parents? And these same adults might use tricky ways to do that, like telling them they lost their puppy and need help finding it. Then there's teaching kids how to escape a burning a house or how to stop, drop and roll if they are on fire. I had nightmares for months after a fireman visited our school and taught us about escaping our bedrooms in case of a fire. And tornadoes are a big thing in my area and we had tornado drills and saw videos about tornadoes and how dangerous they are. Should we just not teach children about things that are scary?

For a Christian, not teaching a child about what Jesus did on the cross would be a thousand times worse than not teaching them about inappropriate touching, stranger danger, fires or tornadoes, since we believe the soul is something that lives on forever and is even more important than the human body and life on earth which is just temporary.

But you don't go out of your way to tell other people's children that they will go to hell if they don't accept the gospel message, right? I don't care what Christians teach their own kids but I don't want someone frightening my kids.

There is a difference between teaching a child about real dangers that can be proven. It is a fact that there are bad people who hurt kids or that houses can catch fire. The existence of heaven and hell has to be taken as a belief not a fact. You can't prove that there is a heaven and hell. So, why should the children of nonChristians be exposed to an unnecessary fear?

Besides, I didn't think that very little kids could understand that they were sinners until they were older. Why present that version of Christianity to even children of believers? It seems unnecessary. I know that I never found Jesus' salvation to be comforting. It frightened me that my friends might go to hell.

[JesusFightClub]

When I was a child, my mother emphasized(emphasised?) that Jesus was a sweet guy who liked little kids and helped people. His death was not something that I heard as much about. When we discussed it, it was more that people were unjust to him and killed him but that he was immortal so it worked out in the end. Vacation bible school talked about god loving everyone.

It took going to adult church with my mom to scare the living daylights out of me. As a child, I didn't really understand that being a Christian meant that you thought everyone should agree with you. For some reason, I had the strange idea that god didn't require people to believe in him. Like I said, it was other adults who used hell to frighten me and their reasoning wasn't because they thought I was bad but they wanted to explain 'real' salvation to me.

Jesus the sweet guy who likes kids is not scary. Jesus the guy that died sins so that we have a choice between heaven and hell is really frightening. And no, I used not to see the second Jesus as scary either.

Very true, this.

I had at my first school "Jesus is a lovely guy who brings us nice things and loves children!" and in my second school "JESUS SEES YOUR SIN AND WANTS TO PUT YOU IN HELL". This was somewhat of a disconnect.

[She Who Laughs]

I have been involved in working with children throughout the past 30 years. No, I don't walk up to a child on the street and tell them they are going to hell. I did teach Sunday School classes and worked with other child ministry programs for years. The gospel was presented in all of those ministries. Not every time of course. There would maybe be once a quarter when the gospel message was presented and it was presented in a manner that was appropriate for the age of the child. We didn't show Jesus bleeding on the cross to 3 year olds. But we didn't gloss over the fact that Jesus died on a cross either. In all of these cases, the children were there with their parents consent. If the parents didn't want their kids hearing those things then it should be the parents responsibility to check out the program ahead of time and decide if they wanted their children to be a part of it. The same holds true for when I had kids at home. If my kids were invited to go to church with a friend from school, I made sure that I checked out the church and its beliefs before I ever gave my permission. If I hadn't done that and my child had been exposed to something I didn't like, I wouldn't have blamed the church, I would have blamed myself for not checking into it ahead of time.

In the instances of the OCC shoeboxes, those kids also receive the boxes either with their parent or guardian's consent or with the consent of the director of the facility where they are living (in the case of orphans or instances where the parents are unable to care for their children). I have been a part of the actual handouts of shoeboxes in areas of Poland, Romania and Ukraine. I cannot vouch for other countries, but consent was given for the kids to receive the shoeboxes and many (maybe even most) of the kids have received these shoeboxes in previous years. The kids are not required to read any literature in the boxes and are not required to make any pledge to attend any program. They can just as easily remove any literature and throw it on the floor or in the garbage – no one stops them. In some of these countries, the local governments are thrilled to have these programs as they don't have enough of their own resources to do anything for the kids.

If parents are so determined that their child should never hear anything about religion, then it should be their responsibility to make sure they only allow their children to be involved with secular organizations. It isn't like Samaritan's Purse tries to hide what their belief or mission is.

[sparkles]

Growing up as a (barely) Jewish kid, the very image of Christ on the cross scared the shit out of me and when I asked my Christian friends about it, the explanation scared me even more*. Even when I was very young, I was troubled by violence, especially violence that was done in the name of god or by god himself. I couldn't understand then and can't understand now why someone else had to suffer and die for my supposed sins. To prove what point? I stopped believing in god at a very early age and that was one of the reasons why. God just doesn't seem like a very nice guy, and certainly not someone worthy of my worship.

* It also didn't help that this was pre-Vatican II. On more than one occasion, I was called a Christ killer, in one instance by the mother of someone who was a good friend who was then forbidden to play with me (the mom asked me where I went to church once when I came over to play. I got sent home when she found out I was Jewish). Nice thing to lay on an 8 year old. How Christian of her. BURN IN HELL, BRENDA'S MOM!

[Sola]

SWL (orJBL, whoever chooses to respond), what would you say to a child who asked what would happen if they DIDN'T repent? Both my kids are inquisitive, logical autis who would not be satisfied with the sanitised, child friendly version of Jesus. They would want to know, and would ask you a zillion questions, what would happen to a person who didn't believe, or who didn't repent or who didn't accept Jesus. JBL has said that he/she would only talk about the good things with young children and they wouldn't bring up the concept of hell. Well JBL my kids would ask you about that. What would you say? Would you tell them about hell then? Even knowing that it would scare the shit out of them?

Thing is, you can pretend with kids that the Bible is all sweetness and light, just like my Sunday School teachers did. We were never told about the bad stuff such as bashing the heads of children onto rocks. Even the Noah story was really glossed over and not a word was spoken of the surely many millions of people who would have drowned. But at some point, the bad stuff does come up.

[Guest Anonymous]

I started to miss JukeboxLucky so I asked google where to find her.

She told us she is a 27 yr old female pastor in a Foursquare church in Utah.

I may be wrong but this Myspace user http://www.myspace.com/jukeboxlucky is a 27 yr old Christian from Utah, and appears to be the same person who works as a Youth Pastor in her dad's Foursquare church in Utah: http://www.summitadventurechurch.com/Su ... Staff.html

Eta: is this you too? http://vimeo.com/19284021

If this is you Christin, why not practice your Church's stated value that "the way of Jesus is not a destination, it's a journey". Come and think about whether your church is serving needy children in the best way possible yet.

[formergothardite]

I like how my church presents the gospel to children. (I attend a Unity church, it's a New Thought denomination.) The youth ed starts with learning about God's love and Jesus' miracles. They focus on that, and how the kids can apply that in their own lives (in simple terms, like being thankful or being kind). This is done from nursery to middle school. His crucifiction is addressed thus: he died not "for our sins" but to show us that he triumphed over death because he was one with God and so he came back. No mention is ever made of original sin or evil and graphic descriptions of him on the cross are avoided. The youth ed emphasizes practical application of one's values. It's also a safe space for the kids to ask ANY questions they have without shame or judgement.

No one ever says, "You're a horrible sinner, everything you think is wrong, THIS IS THE ONLY WAY YOU ARE SAVED." There are kids in the youth ed program (like my son) that are wondering if they believe in God or not. And that's fine. The instructors allow him to voice his opinions and the safe space to explore his own beliefs. One of the things I treasure about my church is that they value all paths to God. They never say, "You're wrong, too bad you're going to hell!" More like, "You're Jewish...Muslim...Atheist...Pagan..Catholic...Evangelical... That's great! Welcome! Hang out and stay for coffee!"

Speak for yourself. Don't paint this Christian your guilt and fear.

I am ignoring SWL because she is a troll (and this is not because she disagrees with most of the people here, I spelled it out for you in the other thread SWL) but the way your church presents it is not how I have ever heard it, which is why I asked Lucky how she teaches it since I am here in the Bible belt surrounded by you are going to hell fundies.

I have a really sensitive daughter, especially when it comes to death. So she wouldn't need a graphic description of Jesus dying to upset her. I do warn her about things that can hurt her even though I know it is going to upset her because it is a reality of life. Jesus dying on the cross isn't a reality of life for us, it is nothing more than a sad, scary story so there is no reason to tell her about it. When she is older we will discuss various religious beliefs more, but she is a little kid, she doesn't need to sit and wonder about some guy dying on a cross so she can go to heaven.

Now I do understand that many Christians don't care that it would upset my daughter. That they would rather scare her into belief than let her live without. I do think it shows a great lack of respect for parents for Christians to give tracts to children. They should give them to parents and let the parent decide. But if you are like Lucky and determined to do this anyway, at the very least you should acknowledge that what you are doing can upset children. Which, by the way, she claimed she didn't do, yet refused to say how she presents the gospel. But I don't think some Christians wants to accept that they might be upsetting small children when they try to save their souls from hell.

[formergothardite]

I started to miss JukeboxLucky so I asked google where to find her.

She told us she is a 27 yr old female pastor in a Foursquare church in Utah.

I may be wrong but this Myspace user http://www.myspace.com/jukeboxlucky is a 27 yr old Christian from Utah, and appears to be the same person who works as a Youth Pastor in her dad's Foursquare church in Utah: http://www.summitadventurechurch.com/Su ... Staff.html

Eta: is this you too? http://vimeo.com/19284021

If this is you Christin, why not practice your Church's stated value that "the way of Jesus is not a destination, it's a journey". Come and think about whether your church is serving needy children in the best way possible yet.

Myspace is still around. I'm surprised. It sounds like this is her.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

But you don't go out of your way to tell other people's children that they will go to hell if they don't accept the gospel message, right? I don't care what Christians teach their own kids but I don't want someone frightening my kids.

This is key, to me.

Again, for the gospel-spreaders out there, how would you like it if your kids are invited to a party (with presents, so they will definitely want to go) and without telling you beforehand, the party is a setup to tell your kids that God doesn't exist? I think people can all recognize that if such a thing happened in the US in 2012 even, there would be an uproar about it.

[Guest Anonymous]

Myspace is still around. I'm surprised. It sounds like this is her.

I think the top two links are her. Not absolutely sure if the vimeo link is her. If it is, then I suspect your expectations/hopes of a considered discussion may be a little unrealistic, FG. :)

[formergothardite]

I was confused by the video. Why would one edit it to look like that? Is that what the cool kids are doing these days? LOL I didn't make it very long, so I have no idea what she was supposed to be talking about.

[Maggie Mae]

What is a Foursquare church? Does it have anything to do with iPhone app? (I'm assuming no, but, you never know how someone will integrate technology next)

I spent 18 years or so in the Catholic Church with intermittent bits of Hebrew School, and one summer at a Baptist camp. Guess which one I hated the most, and which one was the scariest?

I think I was just immune to the dying on the cross thing, because I didn't really feel pain like other kids, and didn't really understand it. I still don't understand the logic in thinking that one person died and the world is forgiven. You know what did make sense? When the History class explained how the Industrial Revolution caused people to have more leisure time, thus increasing everyone's knowledge base and ushering in a new era of people who had time to invent things and think about religion.( shortened version).

But back to the scariness of Jesus - I didn't find anything frightening about dying on the cross, probably because I had seen the guy on the cross at least weekly since I was a baby. I didn't find the stations of the cross scary, because I associated it with having to know when to stand and when to sit and when to say what prayer at what time and in what language and when to move. (and to not fall asleep or get too distracted because it's by far the most boring thing ever.) I didn't find the Catholic concept of hell scary because all of my elder people didn't really have an answer for it other than "we don't know."

But that summer with the Baptists, that was scary. They talked about people being shunned and hell being a lake of fire and demons (which I understood from movies to be fictional) being real, and how if you don't accept Jesus, you will go to Hell, and how if you do this, this, and this, you will go to Hell, and if you go to a Catholic church you are sinning. It was weird, and creepy. The people who paraded us children around treated us like little children which I was not used to at age 11. We had to incorporate bible versus into our art, which I thought was weird and made me uncomfortable because I didn't know any off the top of my head.

We had to pray before doing anything. And I found out that they didn't just pray a prayer like I was used to (memorize some words and say them in a specific order). It was a long, drawn out process. But mostly it was scary because I thought I made friends that summer who lived in my neighborhood, but a week later, once I hadn't accepted Jesus, and it was found out that I went to the Catholic School and my parents would not be giving me up, all the "friends" excluded me. Because I would be going to hell, and it is better to make friends with who won't be a bad influence, and won't hurt you in the future.

[Guest Anonymous]

open facebook group:http://www.facebook.com/groups/89578184763/

If you missed youth this Tuesday, we wrote letters to our Operation Christmas Child kids! Bring a letter in on Sunday to put in one of the boxes. Tell your reader a little about yourself, ask your reader about their interests and family, and end the letter by sharing the love of Jesus and wishing them a Merry Christmas!

Edited to remove full name

[Guest Anonymous]

Ugh, that facebook group.

Apparently she's involved in one of those youth groups where they have the kids do dangerous and disgusting things for "games." I hate that crap so much.

You had to do different challenges to win things. Like ****** drank a cup of water that had pencil shavings in it. **** did the splits. Someone ate a pre-chewed StarBurst. And a lot more that were disgusting.

Yeah it was pretty horrible. There was one that like 80% of the people had to leave the room because it was gross. and like 5 people threw up!

I'm probably going to get punched for mentioning it.... But a kid had to eat 4 tissues that people blew their noses in. xP

Well, now every time I think back on that memory of ***** eating the tissue, I gag. I think that image is permanently burned into my brain.

My throat still hurts from that water with pencil shavings

Isn't JukeboxLucky supposed to be an adult? But if that is her all she does is laugh about this. It's not funny. Teenagers don't need adults egging them on to do stupid and dangerous stuff.

Also, what the hell is this?

Despite Bill Cosby being black, he's very humorous so I think you would be an awesome white Bill Cosby

[jjmennonite]

I spent my childhood in Mennonite, Pentacostal, Non-denominational* , and Baptist churches. God was depicted as a total asshole. Not that they said that, but anybody who would 'create us in his image' and then damn 99% of us to hell because we did not believe just right, would be an asshole.

I cried a lot of tears, as a child, grieving because I was not good enough. All that church shite helped destroy my already low self-esteem.

*Did not realize it as a child, but all the born-again folk taugh us that we were a bit better than others because we were saved. The non-denominational were even better, because they knew the 'real truth' and could not fit in to any denomination. What a bunch of pompous asshats.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww someone was dared to eat four used tissues and candy that had already been chewed????? Thats disgusting! Sounds like something teenagers or drunk college students would do.

[Guest Anonymous]

So, in her intro, Christin was making an issue about God being ok with her as a woman pastor, but it turns out she is a youth group leader. :mrgreen:

[Guest Anonymous]

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww someone was dared to eat four used tissues and candy that had already been chewed????? Thats disgusting! Sounds like something teenagers or drunk college students would do.

Sure, and of course they are teenagers. But I have this wacky notion that when adults are around they should put the kibosh on activities that could hurt or humiliate someone. I guess I don't get how you tell kids they are precious gifts from God and then encourage them to drink pencil shavings and eat snot for cheap prizes.