Fundie Education Standards

[O Latin]

So, I finally got around to watching my last four recorded Duggar episodes (the auto auction, the snowstorm, the wisdom teeth, and Josie’s doctor’s appointment) and then I went over to TWOP to read the snark (I never post at TWOP because I don’t like to follow the rules, but I like to read there). There was a bit of discussion about college and how the Duggar’s education is so inadequate that they wouldn’t be able to succeed in a “real†college even if they wanted to go. Someone said:

I'll go out on a limb and say they have no idea how to write a formal research paper with cover, abstract, reference list, citations, headers and footers etc... I think they would be shocked to learn "real" school isn't like the SOTDRT where you get an "A" just for a half hearted effort.

I’m a senior in college (a godless, liberal, heathen, accredited one), last semester I wrote so many papers that I was ready to throw my Chicago Manual of Style citation guide out the window by spring break, and I don’t know what half of those things are referring to. It seems to me like people often hold the Duggars or other fundies up to their own personal academic standards. I don’t disagree that the Duggars’ education is probably less than stellar, but it drives me crazy when people say, “I bet the Duggars never learn about XYZ,†because 1) most of the time it’s pure speculation anyway, and 2) there are a lot of people who never learn about every given subject. Even the best education cannot possibly cover everything

[nutella addict]

I'm with you there, O Latin. I wrote SO many papers as an undergrad I nearly went crazy, all 7-20 pages (thesis was 50 though) and typically 2-3 per class per term. All that stuff though, that's what you learn for scientific papers, so I learned that stuff in Linguistics courses in undergrad and have to have such things for my MSc Dissertation in Linguistics now, but if I went only on my English papers I would never have had to use cover pages, abstracts, or footnotes, although I'd still have to have citations and MLA-style headers. Never had to use a reference list except as a preliminary "this is where I'm looking" thing in proposals, though, so I don't see why they really need to know *all* those things. I think the point that person was *trying* to make is that they've probably never had to write a formal paper in their lives, and would be lost when they found out they had to write 4 or 5 term papers in less than a month, and I'm also going to guess that with their limited exposure to science and research that isn't strictly from the Bible, they'd have a lot of trouble understanding the format of a scientific research paper. They'd probably be alright on basic citations though since they can cite Scripture anyway, but unfortunately I don't think they know Chicago/APA/MLA citation styles for it...Still, plenty of colleges offer/require basic writing courses and writing help centres for just such problems.

Additionally, I don't know Chicago/APA very well either, as I've mostly used MLA or some weird hybrid an individual prof might require. And while I think that the "science" and "history" the Duggars learn is iffy, I agree that nobody knows about *every* subject out there, and even if you do learn those things you might easily forget them, and that plenty of people might take only certain subjects in college and forget everything else. And yes, so much of that is pure speculation, although we did get a good idea of their "science" from the Creation Museum episode, I think, and we know they believe the world is only 6,000 years old, so that would be a problem if one of them wanted to go into Paleontology or something...but if they just wanted to go into English or Math or something, I don't see how that would be as big a deal.

[formergothardite]

Does anyone remember if in the beginning they only used Wisdom Booklets? For some reason I think they did, but I could be remembering wrong. If that is true, then those educated at that time (and the older kids were highschool age, right) would be totally unprepared to do any sort of report or research paper. ATI is designed to keep students ignorant.

[lilwriter85]

I have a feeling that the Duggar kids that are in their teens and older might not how to use any formatting citations. The kids are schooled in the same area all together. I can't imagine Michelle trying to explain citations to the older kids while trying to deal with the younger ones.

Also another sign that they might not know how how to do citations and research lies within the computer/Internet rules the family has. When I was a sophomore in a high school, my English teacher at the time taught us how to use MLA to write research papers on our favorite books or authors. Our research papers had to be 6-8 pages and we had to have at least 5 or more sources. Doing research took a lot of time for us and some kids who didn't have Internet/computers at home stayed a lot after school. I can't imagine a Duggar teen doing research in small clumps of time here and there. Also the Duggars might or do not go to libraries often and there I don't see Michelle or Boob approving certain books for the kids to read for research.

I think are probably other signs that point to the Duggar teens and 20 somethings not knowing a single thing about MLA, APA or CMS.

In college, the instructors I had in history, social sciences and English had me mostly use APA or MLA. When I took courses in grant writing and technical writing the instructors sometimes had me use CMS for certain types of documents.

[GenerationCedarchip]

I agree with you, O Latin! I had to use MLA in college and I wrote a ton of papers, but not every paper followed the format that the poster you cite mentions. I've known some exceedingly well-educated fundies but I get the feeling the Duggars are like some others I've known who didn't see much of the world outside their ATI (or Bob Jones or Abeka - that stuff is HUGE around here) materials.

[bananacat]

Yeah, I wrote a ton of scientific papers and that's the format for those. I wouldn't include an abstract for most other types of papers unless they were really long. But the best way to write good scientific papers is to read a lot of them, which the Duggars are definitely not doing.

I would love to see how they manage a basic critical reasoning course, where they would learn about logical fallacies. Their minds would be blown.

[forever ago]

It seems to me that fundie homeschooling isn't about actual schooling, it's about Jesus and whatever else the parents might know.

I've posted this in another thread, yes, but it bears repeating here.

When your standards for vetting books are so high it's impossible to find a book that passes them, and when your internet access is restricted just as harshly, it's really freaking hard to do research. It was hard enough trying to do research at school (in high school) with the school filters, that I just goofed off instead when the teacher wasn't looking and did all the research at home. A lot of people wound up doing this, and I've never, ever gotten less than a C on any paper I've written. And those C's were not earned while I was in AP and junior honors classes.

On top of that, fundies don't seem to look too highly on education in general. If you can get through high school, fine, but their opposition to college is very, very telling about their attitudes on education. Of course it's important to read, write, and do math and know some basic science and history. Beyond that, it's what the parent knows, and what the parent believes would be useful. Josh Duggar went into the same business as his dad. His sisters will be housewives like their mother. His brothers will probably also be car salesmen and real estate agents. You know the girls aren't being educated like they should, because what's the point of teaching girls when they will never work outside the house?

Even when the fundies do try to put effort in education, it still falls short because it's fundie education. You can't read 'defrauding' books, evolution is evil and the US is totally a Christian nation... at least according to them. Everything has a Biblical slant. Fundie homeschooling seems to only get you into Christian colleges, if it gets you into any college at all (if you're even ALLOWED to go to college!)

[erunerune]

I think one fundie blogger I follow summed it up with words to the effect of "It doesn't matter how well-educated a child is if that child ultimately goes to hell."

So basically that's the priority, and a lot of fundie parents are obviously just fine with their kids getting a crap education.. I agree that knowing or not knowing the specific protocols of X, Y, & Z for Q research papers isn't necessarily indicative of the overall quality of one's education, but (to me) that seems to be more just an instance/tip-of-the-iceberg type thing. Obviously I don't sit in on the Duggars' SOTDRT, but I personally suspect that a lot of more generalized academia is being pretty darn neglected, not just the style-manual portion of the event.

[almostfundylyte]

I'm a college prof, and I have students from a variety of backgrounds: home-school, public, private. Very few can properly use all of those that were cited in the OP.

[Guest Anonymous]

What bothers me the most about the SOTDRT for Jesus is that I feel like it denies kids a chance to find something that they are passionate about. I guess that is the point, because you aren't supposed to care about anything but being a good little robot, but it pisses me off.

There are potential poets and chemists and teachers and physicists out there that will never be given the opportunity to catch fire with a love for language or science. Public schools aren't perfect, some are good and some are awful, but I feel like they at least expose children to most subjects. That gives kids a chance to do something they enjoy for a living and make a positive difference in the world. It's a damn shame that some kids aren't reading Shakespeare because they're too busy filling out Wisdom Booklets and raising their younger siblings.

*I do not group all homeschoolers together here, some like our own clibbyjo do a fabulous job. It's the ones that think girls only need to cook and clean and read the Bible, and boys must be self employed selling cars or doing construction that drive me up a tree.*

[hilbilly_hippy]

what scares me in all this, is that these types of homeschool DISASTERS put the option to homeschool in jeopardy for parents across the country. let's face it, sometimes, homeschooling is a really really good choice. but the 'fundie' (hate using that phrase, lol, still feel like i am one) 'homeskool' concept produces poor students...and a LOT of attention. i have friends who homeschool for various reasons with great results. someday, i may choose to homeschool after weighing all options. but my kids will CERTAINLY know how to cite references, write proper papers, and do higher math (ok, i have an English degree, so i can do the first two...may have to turn to engineer husband for help on the last one!).

[BloodyIbiza]

I completed High School overseas. I didn't take american/canadian history, geography or literature. I did have to write a few essays- but not research essays. (On the other hand, I had to take the equivalent of AP chemistry/math/physics/Biology, even though I was in the humanities/arts stream)

When I started College( in Canada), I had to learn how to use the different kinds of citations/formatting. Even though I haven't had to do formal research before, I was good to go after a library tour( and the guidelines for the research papers in hand!). I also had to (informally) learn/catch up with north american history/geography/arts/pop culture. And, obviously, language/accent was/is still a barrier.

True- I probably had more tools/skills than (some) fundie kids have. I was very used to a formal academic environment, had critical thinking/logical skills, love(d) to read....and a somewhat broad base of knowledge that I was able to ' translate'/relate to North american stuff.

I think it is somewhat unfair to judge fundie kids by content they didn't learn. That stuff can/could be learned- if the person has the tools/skills to learn them 'later in life' ( which I'm not sure fundie kids have).

[thoughtful]

I'm a college grad (many moons ago) with some graduate work, as well. I've never needed to use a lot of the things that have been listed in this thread.

In my major, I learned a lot of things that no non-musician would need, and that most people probably don't know. But, in my major and later work, they were considered basic.

So whether or not students of the SOTDRT know about a particular requirement of higher education, or have the skills to produce it now, may be moot.

But, every time I was faced with the need to learn something new, I adapted pretty well. Everything computer-related (I was using a manual typewriter in high school), how to write a particular type of paper, etc. -- all of those things could be learned if needed.

I think it might be more to the point to speculate whether people educated in the laughable, Fundie version of "homeschooling" have learned to learn, whether they have enough experience problem-solving, enough language and math skills, enough flexibility, to learn how to write a thesis (or repair a modern car, for that matter).

[clarinetpower]

My husband is a college prof (science), too, and he spends a lot of time teaching his students how to write papers. That's how he learned, too--definitely not in high school. Unfortunately, he also has to spend a lot of time teaching them how to write coherently as well, not just in the proper form. And he's the evil professor that forces them to learn to use LATEX for their paper formatting. They bitch and moan, but by the end they always get why he wants this. (And really it's not hard, especially if you've ever done any html.) I am thankful for the English education I had in public school. I had no difficulties with papers when I got to college, and I still often proofread my husband's work before he submits it (even though the science is incomprehensible to this musician...)

I think I'd be more worried about their lack of knowledge and imagination than I would about forming an abstract. That can be taught, but once the window on critical thought and imagination is painted shut, it can be pretty tough to reopen it.

[GenerationCedarchip]

My husband is a college prof (science), too, and he spends a lot of time teaching his students how to write papers. That's how he learned, too--definitely not in high school. Unfortunately, he also has to spend a lot of time teaching them how to write coherently as well, not just in the proper form. And he's the evil professor that forces them to learn to use LATEX for their paper formatting. They bitch and moan, but by the end they always get why he wants this. (And really it's not hard, especially if you've ever done any html.) I am thankful for the English education I had in public school. I had no difficulties with papers when I got to college, and I still often proofread my husband's work before he submits it (even though the science is incomprehensible to this musician...)

I think I'd be more worried about their lack of knowledge and imagination than I would about forming an abstract. That can be taught, but once the window on critical thought and imagination is painted shut, it can be pretty tough to reopen it.

That's really more my concern with some of the fundie education. I've known some folks who were into ATI or BJU and Abeka and the overall quality of the education those kids get just worries me. However, I also know people whose families are more into classical homeschooling or something that they call Charlotte Mason but which seems to have the fundie reading materials ratcheted up pretty high (I'm guessing it's their own adaptation). Those kids do get exposure to Shakespeare, Dickens, and all kinds of really great books as well as instruction in fairly wide-ranging subject matter. However, there's also an element not just of religious instruction but of fundie-style indoctrination that makes me wonder what kind of critical thinking skills these kids can get since, as they read these great books, they're also being told how they must interpret them.

[antifundie]

I'm in a PhD program, and I, too, spend a lot of time teaching students about citation. My first quarter freshman writing students didn't really have a clue about that stuff--which is actually fine with me. They are there to learn. I was more concerned with encouraging them to form and express their own opinion than I was with perfect citation (at least in the beginning)--in my view, citations (Chicago, MLA, APA, whatever) is a skill you can learn, but it doesn't make for a perfect paper, or even an interesting one.

Heck, I still hate citations (naturally, I love giving credit, but the pickiness of footnotes aggravates me)--I usually do it with a beer in hand, because it's just that annoying. And it can be hard, but in a frustrating way, not a think-y way, if that makes sense.

However, I think that College Minus is HORRIBLE.

[bananacat]

One thing that I'm sure the Duggars are missing out on though is the typical high school "research paper". Basically every year in English class starting in 7th or 8th grade, we had to pick a controversial topic and research both sides of it at the library then write a paper about it. Even if you write a mediocre paper, you still learn the important lesson that there are multiple sides to any topic. There was very much emphasis on researching the side you don't agree with, even if you didn't end up changing your mind over it. But there's no way that the Duggars and other fundies would be allowed to even learn that other sides exist, let alone research what their arguments are.

[chaotic life]

The window on learning does NOT close. I come from a long, long line of women who had their families in their 20s and finished their education/careers in their 30s. Anyone can come back at any age, there's no set time frame and the influx of non-trads in academia is clear evidence of this.

Even Amish children can and do leave to pursue education, both at teens and at later ages. I do worry that a generation of children in this movement are never going to reaach their potential. However, any given one of them is capable of changing the path they are on at any point. I know far, far too many ex-fundie mothers pursuing their education and careers in their 30s, 40s and 50s, just like myself to ever mistake a missed opportunity of choice with an inability to achieve because of some window for learning.

My grandmother is 78 years old. She started traveling to Bangladesh 6-8 months of every year about 4 years ago. She teaches ESL to young adults there and has become fluent in Bangla. If there were some window of ability to learn, she would be WELL beyond it. Age hasn't slowed her down, even if some of wish it would since we worry someone will be forced to retrieve her body from Asia when she dies.

[nutella addict]

I hope I didn't accidentally imply that all homeschooling is bad, or that you can't learn citations and stuff in college, or that the formatting is the key part of paper-writing. I learned formatting/citation styles in middle and high school through a series of incredible (public school) teachers. But I agree that what they're most lacking is critical thinking and analytical skills. One of my favourite teachers in middle school said it was their job to turn us into critical thinkers, and honestly that's the true biggest part of writing a good paper and succeeding academically.

Somewhat OT, but I think interesting, one of my grad school friends was homeschooled till college and probably did get a better education than the public school students in her area (her parents were told by her teacher when she was in 1st grade that she was too ahead of the class and they should homeschool her...). Her parents run a store of homeschool materials, and warn people about ATI when they come in and look at stuff. They're fairly conservative Christians too. I worked with her on a few projects and she is definitely not lacking any academic skills. (Or social skills, for that matter, which IIRC is an argument against homeschooling as well.)

Also, in terms of the Duggars hearing the other side of the argument - I reckon they sometimes do, just it's terribly skewed and inaccurate (eg, Creation Museum's take on evolution...).

Chaotic Life: I don't think anyone meant to imply that you can't keep learning, just that the indoctrination of the fundie lifestyle is quite hindering to the imagination/creativity that doesn't expressly conform to their beliefs, and could possibly continue to hinder it for a long time afterwards.

[tinuviel]

I think the window of ability to learn is less a time thing and more an indoctrination thing. There's no question that people can go back to school or change careers later in life and do a fantastic job at it. The concern is more that the Duggar kids have been so sheltered and that their thinking has been so black and white, that catching up would take some psychological changes, not just educational.

It's not that difficult to learn citations, but researching and writing a formal paper is much more than that. I find it hard to imagine the Duggars writing in anything but a fairly informal, "convince people to believe the one true Christian way" kind of voice. They're probably not exposed to a broad range of writing styles, and I really don't know what kind of feedback they get on the papers that they do write for College Minus. Writing a paper that exhibits real critical thinking would mean acknowledging gray areas and good sides to arguments for "the wrong side". It would mean developing your own opinion instead of just parroting the One True Idea. I think that[/] would take some real adjustment.

Edited to fix a typo.

[browngrl]

My biggest concerns for learners at the SOTDRT are:

(1) quality of teaching - I think teaching is a special skill and not every mother is a good teacher. Or the mother may be a good teacher in one subject but not a good teacher in another subject. This can work out if other people can be called upon to fill the gaps - but fundies don't seem to want any outside help with teaching.

(2) An important component of educations (IMO) is learning critical thinking. How can anyone ever learn how to think critically if they are never presented with an opposing view point?

(3) Learning how to research information effectively is another component that I think is often poorly handled in the fundie community. If your reference for all things is the KJ version of the Bible and if your internet/books are restricted - how can you possibly ever learn how to do a good review?

(4) Although I do not have children - many of my friends have had to study for major exams with young children present - according to them it is very hard. I think children want/need your attention and I think that unless you are able to carve out some time separate from child care to study you will have a hard time learning what you need to learn. How much time does a SAHD have to study when she is not cooking/cleaning/watching children?

(5) Fundamentalists do not seem to put a premium on education - especially for women. If you do not value education - what kind of effort do you think will be exerted to get an education?

(6) I think that interacting with peers at the same education level as you is important - it teaches important skills in working together and gives you a handy benchmark as to where you should be (in terms of your knowledge base).

I think it is quite possible to get a good homeschool education. I got a lot of my education at home and it worked well for me (I did go to public school but found it too slow and so my parents also spent alot of time either teaching me at home or getting me the tutors I needed to move ahead). However, I don't think most fundies (especially girls) are getting anything close to a quality education.

[O Latin]

I've been thinking about this some more and I realize there are are several things that bother me about the original quote that I posted.

1. The assumption that science is superior to all other academic disciplines. I realize that these days that's where the money/jobs/whatever are, but I think this comes down to different views of what education should be. I was taught that one's primary consideration in picking a college major should be whether it's something you enjoy and would be excited to spend four (or more) years studying. I think people assume that if the Duggers are/were properly educated they would all be out there studying science, and maybe they would, but it's also possible that, given the chance, they would end up as 19 English and philosophy majors. I'm not against science, for those who enjoy it, but it's not for everybody and it's not "better" than anything else. I probably know about as much Biology as the average Duggar. That does not make me stupid.

2. The assumption that believing in YEC rules out the study of all science. I'm not all that scientifically inclined (see above), but I think you could learn at least the basics of, say, Chemistry, without YEC beliefs being a problem. I'm thinking back to the Online Chemistry for Dunderheads that I took last summer and I don't recall anything about evolution or the age of the earth coming up. Granted, that was the very basic of basic classes, but it would be better than nothing.

3. The assumption that a person is educationally lacking if they don't fit certain academic standards. One of my friends is a diesel mechanic. He would probably have a hard time writing a research paper, on any topic, but he can talk your ears off about the ins and outs of engines, and he enjoys what he does. He did have to go to some sort of school or training in order to become a diesel mechanic, but it definitely wasn't the same thing as college. The Duggars could all be quite successful without ever going to a traditional four-year college.

[formergothardite]

I've been thinking about this some more and I realize there are are several things that bother me about the original quote that I posted.

1. The assumption that science is superior to all other academic disciplines. I realize that these days that's where the money/jobs/whatever are, but I think this comes down to different views of what education should be. I was taught that one's primary consideration in picking a college major should be whether it's something you enjoy and would be excited to spend four (or more) years studying. I think people assume that if the Duggers are/were properly educated they would all be out there studying science, and maybe they would, but it's also possible that, given the chance, they would end up as 19 English and philosophy majors. I'm not against science, for those who enjoy it, but it's not for everybody and it's not "better" than anything else. I probably know about as much Biology as the average Duggar. That does not make me stupid.

2. The assumption that believing in YEC rules out the study of all science. I'm not all that scientifically inclined (see above), but I think you could learn at least the basics of, say, Chemistry, without YEC beliefs being a problem. I'm thinking back to the Online Chemistry for Dunderheads that I took last summer and I don't recall anything about evolution or the age of the earth coming up. Granted, that was the very basic of basic classes, but it would be better than nothing.

3. The assumption that a person is educationally lacking if they don't fit certain academic standards. One of my friends is a diesel mechanic. He would probably have a hard time writing a research paper, on any topic, but he can talk your ears off about the ins and outs of engines, and he enjoys what he does. He did have to go to some sort of school or training in order to become a diesel mechanic, but it definitely wasn't the same thing as college. The Duggars could all be quite successful without ever going to a traditional four-year college.

That is exactly, word for word, what Gothard teaches. That there is no need for college because you can be successful without it. That philosophy really hasn't worked out too well for most ATI graduates. Very few have been able to be successful without some education or at least the skills to get an education.

[lilwriter85]

I just remembered that someone on the old FJ mentioned that a CollegeMinus coach or intern was staying with the Duggars recently. I wonder if teaching the kids to write research papers was one of her duties.

[xDreamerx]

So, I finally got around to watching my last four recorded Duggar episodes (the auto auction, the snowstorm, the wisdom teeth, and Josie’s doctor’s appointment) and then I went over to TWOP to read the snark (I never post at TWOP because I don’t like to follow the rules, but I like to read there). There was a bit of discussion about college and how the Duggar’s education is so inadequate that they wouldn’t be able to succeed in a “real†college even if they wanted to go. Someone said:

I’m a senior in college (a godless, liberal, heathen, accredited one), last semester I wrote so many papers that I was ready to throw my Chicago Manual of Style citation guide out the window by spring break, and I don’t know what half of those things are referring to. It seems to me like people often hold the Duggars or other fundies up to their own personal academic standards. I don’t disagree that the Duggars’ education is probably less than stellar, but it drives me crazy when people say, “I bet the Duggars never learn about XYZ,†because 1) most of the time it’s pure speculation anyway, and 2) there are a lot of people who never learn about every given subject. Even the best education cannot possibly cover everything

I know this is a bit of derail from the way the thread has gone but I just wanted to say that I've had to all of those requirements time and time again. The abstract is not to common, I've only had to do it once or twice in Social Sciences electives but the rest are considered standard and one is expected to know how to do them properly. I'm not a science major; I'm just an English major. I haven't gone to some upper-class private school or anything. I've gone to public, regular schools all my life, but still these things were considered a must. Maybe it's different in America or other parts of Canada. I'm in Ontario. We started learning this in about 9th and by the time you're in University, it's just expected. It's second nature. My school follows MLA as the standard so most first years were required to buy the manual. I had one friend who almost got into trouble for plagiarism because she did a citation incorrectly. The idea that you could end up in University and not know these skills is really strange to me, having had it drilled into my head for so long.