What it really means "to defraud"

[MamaJunebug]

To defraud, by the dictionary, means "to deprive by deceit," or to cheat someone out of what is owed them.

This gets into really scary territory.

If clothing is "defrauding," and if someone perceives a distinction between

"legitimate" and other forms of rape, then the Duggar/ATI definition of "defraud" could imply that a woman who bares part of her body is basically saying, "Come and take me." When she resists a sexual advance, she has "cheated someone out of what she owes them," that is, the enjoyment of her body.

This no doubt explains why Michelle was deemed to be soiled, or whatever the word they used was, on her wedding day. Girlfriend may or may not have had sexual intercourse with somebody at thattime, but since she mowed the lawn in a bikini, and had no intention of delivering on what she thus owed to the neighbor, she had been "defrauding."

The implications seriously chill me to the bone.

[ILoveJellybeans]

That is incredibly creepy.

I imagined it to be sort of just like "You made me have a naughty thought because I saw your bare leg" or "You gave me a boner"

It sounds like they think that women are asking for people to come and have sex with them if they dont wear a frumper, and that if they say no or resist being raped, theyre cheating them out of something theyre owed.

[debrand]

There is also the aspect of defrauding the future spouse. If the woman shows too much of her body, she is stealing her husband's right to be the first and only man to lust for her. Also, she is taking away some other woman's future husband's purity and defrauds him of his right to be pure. Although, fundies pay lip service to the man and woman being pure, they don't really think that it is possible for a man to be pure unless the woman protects him.

I find the concept gross and offensive.

[mkitten]

I had never really thought the concept of defrauding all of the way through, now that I've seen it in such bald terms it is very disturbing. I knew that fundies considered women property, but it really didn't hit home until I saw that. Yuck. I can't believe that in 2012 after all that women of past generations have gone through, and what women are still going through; that Michelle and other fundie women that have drunk the Kool-Aid just piss all over all that hard work and fling their daughters back into that Mediaval mentality. Eek.

[RosyDaisy]

The whole concept of "defrauding" makes my head hurt. Men and women are naturally turned on to the opposite (or same) sex whether they are fully clothed from head to toe or standing butt naked in front of each other. But you know, seeing a hot guy never made me want to jump his bones (unless it's my SO of course....LOL)

[Minerva]

That's disturbing. Anyone have any idea how long the term "defrauding" has been in use in fundyland? Did the Duggars make it up for themselves, or are they just parroting someone else at this point?

[MamaJunebug]

Thanks for all the replies! My mini-reason-for-being is now to determine the origins of the misuse of the term "defraud" in QF/fundy/dominionist families. So far my research brings up an interview with Vyckie Garrison from 2011, in which she mentions a 19K&C episode where it was demonstrated that:

The older children also are expected to uphold the teachings and standards imposed by the parents. Viewers were recently treated to Joy-Anna Duggar [a preteen at the time] covering a TV screen and using the family code word “Nike†to prevent her younger brothers from seeing something inappropriate. She did not want them to be “defrauded†by the image on the screen, but could not really define the term “defraud.†Her sheepish Grandmother explained that Joy-Anna had been taught to do this.

(Source: http://blogs.alternet.org/vyckie/tag/bill-gothard/)

"Defrauded" has been hyperlinked to a page where Jonathan Lindvall has quite a bit about the term:

Another experience we believe God has directed us to shelter our children from is premature and unauthorized romance. The issue is not simply endeavoring to survive the teen years physically pure. Paul makes it clear (1 Thes. 4:6) that emotional purity is also important, saying "that no one should go beyond and defraud his brother in this matter" of moral purity. Notice that it is not enough to draw a line and commit oneself to not "go beyond" in physical morality. We must also commit ourselves to not "defraud" others romantically.

What is defrauding? In business transactions it is cheating. It is causing another to desire and expect something that will not be legitimately fulfilled. Does this ever happen in romantic relationships? Of course it does! The contemporary dating patterns among modern youth are the epitome of defrauding. Most of us find that the regrets of our past romantic relationships continue to cause pain. Many marriages suffer from the baggage of previous emotional bonds that continue to impact the current marital relationship. God calls us to spare our children our regrets.

The best modern term for what Paul calls defrauding is flirting. I challenge young people to commit themselves to avoid flirting as emotional promiscuity. The broken heart syndrome of the dating patterns our children have inherited from us are not preparation for marital bliss, but rather for divorce! Breaking up is hard to do, but the more you do it the better you get at it.

I am excited to see God raising a standard among many Christian young people today through commitments to "courtship" as opposed to "dating." Let me suggest, though, that while I am convinced we are heading in the right direction, courtship is no more scriptural than dating. You will not only never find the word "courtship" in the Bible, you will not even find the idea!

There is, however, a scriptural pattern for moving from singleness to marriage without defrauding. The scriptural pattern makes it possible for a young man to be a "one-woman man" emotionally as well as physically. A young lady can save her heart as well as her body for the one man God has prepared her for. The process in scripture known as "betrothal" permits a young person to release their emotions to one they have become committed to marry without any risk of being defrauded. (I will deal with this topic at more length in a future article.) Sparing young people from defrauding is a critical issue that is being mostly neglected in today's church. Physical purity is not enough!

(Source: http://boldchristianliving.com/articles ... ences.html)

Look up 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 Verse 6 and you will find that nothing about "defrauding" has to do with sexuality, at least in the first half-dozen or so translations at this link:

http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/4-6.htm

In fact, most of them talk about the actions of one man toward another -- in business, or by cheating with a guy's wife.

I will look up the passage and the word in my Lutheran Study Bible later today. Not that we Lutherans are the be-all and end-all in things theological, but because the scholarly tradition in the Lutheran community to date has been serious and careful, and not given to faddishness. (Yes, some very conservative Lutherans have a patronistic attitude toward women, but that's a topic for a different thread.)

So far, my little bit of research shows that Gothard is one of the roots of the mis-use of "defraud" and willfully so. No big surprise.

[FeministShrew]

Might be a little off-topic, but two elderly ladies behind me in line to vote were for some reason discussing rape & the way women dress. The snatches of the conversation I caught were disturbing, but I guess not surprising: "If they dress like that they should expect it" from one, "It's an invitation" from the other. :x

[MamaJunebug]

Might be a little off-topic, but two elderly ladies behind me in line to vote were for some reason discussing rape & the way women dress. The snatches of the conversation I caught were disturbing, but I guess not surprising: "If they dress like that they should expect it" from one, "It's an invitation" from the other. :x

I wish I'd been with you. I'd've politely asked them to explain the rape and murder of a nun I knew, in her apartment, as well as the rape of ... oh, never mind.

It's a little off-topic, but I"m glad you mentioned it. My theory at this point is that the whole "defraud" misuse is a taproot of the poison that's working against all the gain feminism made in the past several decades to define rape rightly as the fault of the rapist, not the victim. As well as a host of "she had it comin'" attitudes in other parts of life: denial of promotion in the workplace, less pay for the same work, subordinate positions in church congregations, etc. Thanks for your story!