Does the MRS degree still exist?

[YPestis]

I've been dating my boyfriend since undergrad, but when medical school became a reality, I thought seriously about ending the relationship. The stories of affairs, debt, divorces, etc made it a hard sell. I finally decided I shouldn't end a relationship based on the bad things that could happen, but I do still worry from time to time.

I'm a doc married to a doc. I know plenty of people who had serious relationships in med school and residency. It's not as bad as you suggest. The debt is an issue, but otherwise it's like being with any busy professional. Relationships take work regardless. I've worked in another career prior to med school. I can tell you affairs, debt and divorces happen in normal jobs with "regular" hours. Docs like to complain about it because we had to delay our gratification. While friends partied, we were up late studying organic chem. While friends started paying jobs, we take more loans out for med school. While friends got promotions and bought houses, we cut corners and worked 70hrs on mediocre pay in residency. We bitch and moan because it releases stress, not because we're all broke and divorced and sleeping with our attendings (ok, maybe a few....). Just remember that a lot of college grads come out broke, alone and experiencing the stress of the first job as well. It's not unique to medicine. It's just life.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I did not think this was a real thing -but I was wrong. I first noticed it in med school. At all of our dances/social gatherings there were a coterie of young women who seemed to be there just to meet the men. You could easily distinguish them from the female med students - we all looked tired and we talked with women and men - those women looked fabulous and only spent time with the men. I did not notice any men doing a similar thing for the female med students. Later when I was an intern/resident (last in the late 90's) I noticed a similar phenomena. Lots of women seemed flock around the male residents/interns. Even today i see a surprising number of women who are secretly or openly looking for a man to look after them.

To me the most interesting thing was: it turns out I was one of those women who secretly was hoping for a man to look after me. When I first got married my husband was making substantially less than me (he had just changed careers - now we make about the same amount). This bothered me to a surprising degree. It turned out I had never thought of myself as the main breadwinner of the family. My husband had never thought of himself as NOT the main breadwinner. So we both had some adjusting to do.

Just curious but... did the men med students date the women med students?

I went to university and got an engineering degree, one of very few women in the program. The weird thing was, I was friends with my classmates all the time but very many of them made it clear that they did not really consider the women in the class to be potential dating partners - they always wanted to date women from other majors, often majors that they would disparage as "fluffy" when those women weren't around.

I didn't end up marrying until age 38, and now I am the primary earner in my household (I ended up a computer programmer). I definitely never wanted to be a "housewife," in fact I just assumed I'd probably never marry because there was no way on earth I would give up my own desires (for career and choosing where to live and various things) to follow some guy's dreams and move where he said to follow his career - that's how the whole idea of marriage had been presented to me, that it's always the wife pulling up stakes to follow the husband, even if she has jobs along the way.

[Kaylee]

Most of the women I know who went to non-fundie college did so with plans of having their own career, but I know a lot of women who got married soon after high school and ended up being SAHMs or working minimum wage or part time jobs because they couldn't afford college or couldn't afford child car with the salary they made. Many of them married young to men who joined the military and moving around with their husbands may have been a factor too because it makes it hard to establish a career.

A few people have mentioned the Hyles-Anderson Marriage & Motherhood degree. This was my major at HAC (I was sort of kicked out in my sophomore year then went to a secular state college for a couple year) and the idea really was to prepare women to be pastor's wives - or church secretaries or possibly missionaries if you weren't considered a "first line girl" who was worthy of marrying a future manogawd. Many of them did plan on being on the church staff where their husband worked, as a secretary or otherwise and several of the grads I'm still in touch with are in paid positions but make less than their husbands and are usually working under their husband. They did have some required secretarial courses and piano lessons to prepare women for those positions, but nothing that would really be useful for a stand-alone secular job even if the school had been accredited. Many of the women who are grads of that program and not SAHMs have gone to community college for either medical/nursing (CNA & phlebotomy are common) or childcare jobs, but the expectation was very much that the husband will be the main breadwinner and the wife's income is seen as extra or unnecessary.

Once I got into real college, I planned on having my own career, but sort of settled back into the MRS degree mentality once I met my husband. My parents decided to quit helping me financially once we got together, so I had to drop out of school to get a job. We planned early on on having children and that I would stay at home and homeschool so, even though I'd worked up until that point and was earning about twice what my husband made, I lost my job when I was pregnant and decided not to look for another right then. I haven't been able to find anything now that will pay enough to make it work with the childcare and other costs involved in working, because I have pretty specialized work experience & years of real school but no degree and then a degree and a bunch of other coursework at nonaccredited schools that don't count for anything).

I plan to go back to college once my son's in school and stay until I get at least a Master's (I want to go for my PhD, but don't know if I'll be able to afford it because I'll have to go out of state, to get into the field of study I want). If I do that and find a decent job, then I'll probably do the opposite of the Mrs degree because my husband wants to get at least a 4 year degree as well and I told him if he'd help me get through school then I'd do the same for him when I could.

[Closed Womb]

I worked as a professor at a public university. I taught primarily freshman and primarily required classes, so I met students with a variety of plans from various backgrounds. For the most part, the young women were doing what they wanted to do. Occasionally, one would have a parent who was pushing them towards a family aspiration (say, pre-med) while the student herself wanted another path. While I can say that the women were more likely to be on a path that would result in a lower paying career, I generally attributed it to the societal constructs that equate a man's finances with his worth. Essentially, my male students were much more likely to be pursuing a career path they didn't really want.

That said, to almost a student, my female students were also looking for a relationship. While some were looking for pure almost-courtship like arrangements (none were no touch/ask my dad type situations -- at least, no one revealed that -- but some were looking to remain virgins until married, only dated people of "like mind", etc.), most just wanted a boy/girl friend. They wanted that experience; the perceived normalcy of the "college boyfriend" that pops up in media.

Many of them dreamed of marrying their boy/girl friend, but I never got the sense that they took this as a given. Or as the main goal.

Some of this comes from personal conversations or class discussions, but since I taught English I also had the benefit of reading their "free writings", which were oh-so-often about relationships.

[Pudicitia]

It's neigh on impossible to support a family on one income in Britain, but there is definitely an element of the MRS degree here. I knew someone at school who explicitly said that they were going to university to "find their husband".

I went to one of the top unis in Britain and there were definitely some girls there who, despite being bright, were angling for higher-earning husbands (being a SAHW would be rather unusual unless you had small children here, but earning pin money in, say, the charity sector while your husband works in something like banking is rather more acceptable). There were also a lot of American girls over on a year abroad who were rather obvious in their quest for a wealthy British husband.

[Shoobydoo]

I think part of it depends on where you go to school. I go to a tiny art school where 70% of the students are female, half the remaining male students are gay, and we're art students so we're all going to be dirt poor when we graduate anyway. Nobody in their right mind would go looking for a MRS here. The giganto 60K student state school across the river? I'd bet they have their fair share of gold diggers.

[dirtyhippiegirl]

I wish I could be the lazy SAHW in the McMansion with no kids that was described earlier. I fantasize about sitting on my ass, eating bonbons all day -- maybe making my husband a nice dinner when he comes home.

Instead, I'm a RN. It's okay and I enjoy the work a lot of the time. Husband makes slightly more than I do, but our incomes are comparable and I technically bring home more than he does in pay because more of his paycheck goes into our 401k, etc.

I sometimes wonder - even nag a bit - if he *could* make more in his field with a little more ambition to switch around jobs. Nursing, unfortunately, suffers from pretty severe wage compression/stagnation without more schooling. But, really, I'd just want him to make more so I could sit at home all day and watch TV.

/totally serious

[Katiebug]

We are still culturally conditioned to think in terms men as providers, even if most gals expect to bring home a secondary income. Now, I don't think the traditional model is bad. I would just like to see more girls who grow up thinking like ME. That they too can focus on careers which provide for their entire family.

This is so true. We both work, but as an engineer I could provide for all of us if we chose to or needed to have it happen. DH and I have been together for 12 years and married for 7. I've known since we decided that we were going to make a life together that I would be the primary breadwinner. It's just reality for us and I'm glad that I was able to go to school and earn a degree that enables us to live a comfortable, middle class lifestyle. We both work hard to take care of our family and we think of it as "our" income, not his/mine. My parents (still happily married after 35+ years) raised me with the mindset of being able to take care of myself and any children financially rather than relying on a man.

Our peer group/social circle is made up of other college-educated married couples ranging from their late 20s to mid-30s. All have at least one child and most have two or are expecting their second. We live in southern New England so cost of living can be on the higher side. While I do know two women who are SAHMs, they didn't marry their husbands for their earning potential and plan to eventually return to the workforce in some capacity. Most couples we know need or want to have both partners working outside of the home in a professional/white collar job.

However, we are unusual in that I out-earn my husband. I'm an engineer, he's a customer service supervisor. We have a 2 year old daughter. I have two master's degrees and he's just starting an MBA, so in the long run he may get his salary up into the range of mine but for the forseeable future I'll continue to earn roughly twice what he does. When we have a second child his take home pay will basically be eaten up by the daycare bill and commuting costs, but he will continue to work for the health insurance for our family (much better through his employer than mine) and the educational benefits (they're paying for that MBA!). Only one or two of our friends are in a similar position; for the most part either the spouses earn around the same salary or the husband earns more and therefore the discussions surround the wife leaving her career in order to be at home with the kids.

I want to go to nursing school someday and make a career change, but it'll have to wait until we're done having kids and they're all in school. As it is, we couldn't afford our living expenses on his salary alone, much less cover tuition and daycare while I go to class. I'm our primary breadwinner and unfortunately that limits me somewhat during this stage of our lives - I have to keep working as an engineer because my income supports us and my husband's gives us a cushion and pays for child care. I guess I have to hope that by 40, I won't be thought of as being old to do a master's entry nursing program. :lol:

When I was going to a state university and majoring in engineering I encountered girls who were either engineering majors themselves or were openly seeking a guy who was an engineering major because they knew he'd be able to get a good job and support a family. Most of those girls changed majors after a year or two when they realized it wouldn't be a walk in the park and they could meet those guys just as easily through social events. I knew a couple of young women majoring in nursing with the intent of snagging a pre-med guy/eventually a doctor and not having to work again. I knew at least one girl who wanted to get herself a lawyer for the same reason.

The thing is, every doctor I know under the age of 50 has a spouse who works at least part time (that includes my OBGYN's wife and my PCP's husband). For the last 20 years, doctors have typically graduated with so much debt and won't start earning "doctor" money until their 30s that it's usually necessary for the spouse to keep working, especially if they have a baby or two. And we've all read the stories about the utter glut of law school grads with a mountain of debt who are working at Starbucks! The days of a young woman finding herself a choice medical or law or engineering or MBA student, working for a few years for "pin money" until he's established, and then living a relatively leisurely life of an upper middle class SAHM are gone, I think. And there has never been a phenomenon of young men seeking high earning potential women. The cultural assumption is still that the man is the provider and the woman can be one but doesn't have to be.

[smores]

There are some women and men who pretty much think being married to a doctor will bring them instant wealth and when that doesn't happen, problems happen. One of my paternal aunts was married to a doctor. They married during his second year of medical school. She has said that being married to a med student was tough and after he finished med school, it took several years for them to get ahead financially. There were times in which they cut several corners to pay off loans. They ended up divorcing because he had an affair. He later married the woman who he had an affair with. My aunt's ex is a general practitioner who has worked at clinics. He has never made huge salaries, his second wife landed them in bankruptcy ten years after they had married. My aunt found out about this when her son was about to graduate from high school and the ex said he wouldn't be able to help out with college. I have a guy friend who is in his third year of med school. He is single and a lot of people at this school have told that is good that he is single. He said he has heard several stories of people who marry med students and end up being annoyed later on when the couples have to face the debt after medical school.

I know someone about to go through this experience, though it's the woman in professional school. They both think the loan payments will be fine and she'll be making 100k/year, but the rest of our group just doesn't see it. The sad thing is, they are living beyond their means now thanks to student loans as he barely works; I have a feeling the next couple of years are going to get ugly.

[luckystone]

I did law, and I don't think I knew anyone who openly admitted to looking for a partner. The cohort was full of competitive girls who wanted to be lawyers. And now they are all lawyers. I'm sure most will take time off for babies and some might even give up entirely to be stay at home mothers but nobody admitted or even joked about that being their plan. Well, joked, maybe. Marrying millionaires. But not really. And there weren't many super rich people around. I think the law cohort has slightly more females than males, as does the medicine cohort at my uni. Oh, most of my peer group are not dating people they met at uni either. The trend to get married when you are 30 (average age here) means that most people meet after they graduate at 20-23ish.

Plenty of women aim for comfortable lifestyles but that's by both having a high-paying income, or maybe running a business or something. Really you need two people to be well-off unless one is super rich. And I think that's the sort of thing you get by chance or by openly being a trophy wife not by doing a difficult degree.

Okay, I've just been thinking and I realised that, as usual, my social experiences are probably unusual and not representative of much. In my own relationship and those of my two closest non-single friends, the female earns more.

[gravelmonkey]

I'm a doc married to a doc. I know plenty of people who had serious relationships in med school and residency. It's not as bad as you suggest. The debt is an issue, but otherwise it's like being with any busy professional. Relationships take work regardless. I've worked in another career prior to med school. I can tell you affairs, debt and divorces happen in normal jobs with "regular" hours. Docs like to complain about it because we had to delay our gratification. While friends partied, we were up late studying organic chem. While friends started paying jobs, we take more loans out for med school. While friends got promotions and bought houses, we cut corners and worked 70hrs on mediocre pay in residency. We bitch and moan because it releases stress, not because we're all broke and divorced and sleeping with our attendings (ok, maybe a few....). Just remember that a lot of college grads come out broke, alone and experiencing the stress of the first job as well. It's not unique to medicine. It's just life.

That's what I eventually came to - unpredictability is part of life. It can be stressful, but it can also be fun!

[Lady_M]

I am OP and loving all the posts here.

I want to point out a couple of thoughts I had while reading:

First, there seems to be a gradient of "MRS degree" discussed here. The most severe is the college girl who outright announce to people she has no career plans, wants to be a SAHM, and actively seek out college guys who are on a career path to support her family in a comfortable middle/upper class style. I have only found a few girls like that in college. Interestingly enough, they were both from relatively wealthy families and had SAHM. I often wonder if the upper middle class are just more socially conservative because the system works pretty well for them (being a wealthy wife beats being a poor wife).

The less extreme----and more common---"MRS degree" seems to be the girl who majors in something interesting and fun with no eye on their future career option. They are also looking for a guy who can support a family, but they don't mind bringing in "pin money". Guys with so-so prospects are still not acceptable and the girls do not intend on being the breadwinner. This, I see in the girls of all stripes. In fact, I'd say that's status quo for a large minority of girls even in our generation.

Then there's the also common trend to want a career but with the unspoken idea that their husbands will probably make more. These girls are more likely to want and have jobs, but they are still used to the idea of a husband as breadwinner.

It's rare that I meet a girl who hits the ground running on her career, with a focus that she must seek out financial security for herself and her husband/kids. I see this attitude much more among guys. I only know of one other girl, besides me, who have always thought about the importance of finding jobs that can provide for husband and self, in case he is not a high earner. To me, it's not important that a husband earns a lot. He just need to be smart, cultured and a good cook (and not a slob). I find myself in a very small minority with that idea when I was in college.

We are still culturally conditioned to think in terms men as providers, even if most gals expect to bring home a secondary income. Now, I don't think the traditional model is bad. I would just like to see more girls who grow up thinking like ME. That they too can focus on careers which provide for their entire family.

I think this is a really astute and interesting observation. It's strange because I've identified myself as feminist for most of my life and even grew up with parents (especially my mother) who were always telling me that I was going to have to work to support myself, be educated and not depend on any sort of income from a husband. My mother was even somewhat uncomfortable with the idea of me having a baby doll when I was young as she didn't want me to internalize the message that having children/babies was the only thing I could do with my life as a woman. At the same time, I had a lot of friends as a child with SAHMs who had often sacrificed for their husband's careers and saw that message as well.

When my husband and I got married, despite my education, we both initially thought that he'd be the main breadwinner. While I never wanted to be a SAHM for any length of time, it was sort of a given at the time that when we got around to having kids, I'd probably just work part time for a few years before going back to full time. We got married, and husband couldn't find a full-time job in his field. So I took a full time job, became the main breadwinner, and kept up the health insurance. Except for about a year of our 7+ year marriage (when I was in nursing school), I've always been the main "provider". Now I'm glad that things have worked out the way they have. I'm proud of what I do and being a woman who could support us solely on my earnings if I had to (and did, for a while when husband was let go from his job during the recession). I see your point though about expectations and it's interesting to examine and wonder why it was that I ever thought it was the "norm" that my husband would make more than me.

I agree, I'd like to see more girls grow up thinking the way you did - it's smart and necessary these days.

At the same time, husband and I were talking the other day, and it's been an adjustment for him as well. He was conditioned to believe that he had to "support" his family, and it's been hard for him in some ways to come to terms with feeling at times like he isn't doing what he's "supposed" to be doing. It's strange because he's in no way, shape, or form patriarchal and he thinks it's great that I make the money I do. He's totally supportive of my work as well. It's interesting how some of these ideas about "normal" end up lurking, even though both of us are happy with the way we are.

[Lady_M]

I don't think you will be, I went to nursing school at a decent community college (couldn't afford anything else) when I was in my upper 20s and was on the young side in my class. Many of the students were in their 30s and 40s, even a few in their 50s. That's probably even more likely in a master's entry nursing program.

[dirtyhippiegirl]

I don't think you will be, I went to nursing school at a decent community college (couldn't afford anything else) when I was in my upper 20s and was on the young side in my class. Many of the students were in their 30s and 40s, even a few in their 50s. That's probably even more likely in a master's entry nursing program.

Less likely to get a job with a direct master's 'tho. Esp. since I'm assuming that she wants to be a Doc Lite and will probably need a DnP to practice by that time.

[sarahbrownie]

I think part of it depends on where you go to school. I go to a tiny art school where 70% of the students are female, half the remaining male students are gay, and we're art students so we're all going to be dirt poor when we graduate anyway. Nobody in their right mind would go looking for a MRS here. The giganto 60K student state school across the river? I'd bet they have their fair share of gold diggers.

I believe we go to the same school. :D

I intended to go to Columbia for my MRS degree. My idea was to get the not-so-required but wanted graduate education and have a more gourmet meat market to browse. ;) Not that I wanted to be a SAHM, but I find it's easier to meet people at college than going crosstown and paying $30 to speed-date. Well, I was waitlisted at Columbia and now go to a school where there is only women in my master's program. I kind of given up at it and will focus on finishing my masters meanwhile.

[Spider Burps]

I want to go to nursing school someday and make a career change, but it'll have to wait until we're done having kids and they're all in school. As it is, we couldn't afford our living expenses on his salary alone, much less cover tuition and daycare while I go to class. I'm our primary breadwinner and unfortunately that limits me somewhat during this stage of our lives - I have to keep working as an engineer because my income supports us and my husband's gives us a cushion and pays for child care. I guess I have to hope that by 40, I won't be thought of as being old to do a master's entry nursing program. :lol:

I'm a doc married to a doc. I know plenty of people who had serious relationships in med school and residency. It's not as bad as you suggest. The debt is an issue, but otherwise it's like being with any busy professional. Relationships take work regardless. I've worked in another career prior to med school. I can tell you affairs, debt and divorces happen in normal jobs with "regular" hours. Docs like to complain about it because we had to delay our gratification. While friends partied, we were up late studying organic chem. While friends started paying jobs, we take more loans out for med school.

So, which is it? Or are you an MD engineer? :roll:

[Katiebug]

So, which is it? Or are you an MD engineer? :roll:

That first quote was me, not YPestis. I want to end up as nurse someday but am an engineer now.

I know of at least two doctors who started off in engineering, though!

[Spider Burps]

That first quote was me, not YPestis. I want to end up as nurse someday but am an engineer now.

I know of at least two doctors who started off in engineering, though!

Fair enough! Someone mislabeled a quote as being from her, I guess, because I just went from what I saw on this page. Apologies to any offended parties.

[YPestis]

That first quote was me, not YPestis. I want to end up as nurse someday but am an engineer now.

I know of at least two doctors who started off in engineering, though!

Yes, the first quote was attributed to me by mistake. I'm not the breadwinner nor do I have any children currently.

However....I do have my undergraduate degree in engineering. I guess that does make me an engineering MD, if you will ;) . I've only run into a few engineers in med school, and people always raise their eyebrows. I tell people we may be few, but we resolve to take over the world with our robot doctors! :lol:

[boysmom]

I really didn't go to college with anyone planning on an "MRS." That was in the 80's and we were all into the whole dual career idea. I ultimately got an MBA but ended up as a Chemist doing R&D using my undergrad. My husband was/is in sales. We made about the same, it was fine. Ultimately I had 3 kids in 2 years (a set of twins) and ended up quitting to be a SAHM. I was quite shocked to realize that being home with my kids was what I really wanted. I don't think that SAHM's are lazy at all, young children require a lot of effort to care for, there's a reason we pay people money to watch them if we work outside the home. Anyway, I had one more and when he went into first grade I went back to school in order to pursue a new career, as I'd never liked working as a Chemist. I was at a prestigious company, but hated the work, mostly the part where I worked alone in a lab all day. I needed something that I can support our family on if possible, no way was I spending a bunch of money and time on a degree where I'd make a small amount of money. So I ultimately decided to be a Speech Pathologist and will finish in a year or so. We do okay in this field, it all depends on where you work (school based pays the lowest.)

One phenomenon I've noticed is women who had a great career, had kids and quit. Then later got some kind of cruddy job instead of returning to their field, or training for something else with good prospects. I have a friend who was an engineer and now works at the school cafeteria. Another one never plans to work again, she was in benefits administration. Those are the only two I can think of off the top of my head, but it puzzles me as we work so hard in school and it seems like they'd want more long-term.

Oh and my brother is an engineer who went to med school. Funny it was mentioned here so I thought I'd mention it. His wife does work almost full-time, which I really don't understand as she has young kids, but I guess it makes her happy.

[crawfishgirl]

One phenomenon I've noticed is women who had a great career, had kids and quit. Then later got some kind of cruddy job instead of returning to their field, or training for something else with good prospects. I have a friend who was an engineer and now works at the school cafeteria. Another one never plans to work again, she was in benefits administration. Those are the only two I can think of off the top of my head, but it puzzles me as we work so hard in school and it seems like they'd want more long-term.

I'm beginning to understand it. I have two degrees, and have worked in my field since graduation. I'm in my mid 40's now. I've worked in corporate environments (my field is mainly situated in corp offices), and was at my last company for 10 years. I was in management the last few years, and it was not a good experience - I saw how upper mgt lied to people and burned them out - basically, they treated people poorly because they could, and blamed the economy. It was so frustrating, because I was high enough to see the shit, but too low to do much about it. Their strategy worked during the beginning of the recession, but when it started to get better, people left in droves. I realize that not all companies are like this, but it seems that more are going in this direction. I could go on, but I don't want to bore anyone. When my company lost a client contract and had to downsize my entire department last year, it was like a weight had been lifted off my shoulders - and others in my dept felt the same. I haven't started looking for another position yet, and am enjoying time off with my kids. Money is tighter, but we are making it work. But, I am seriously starting to question if I want to return to my profession and therefore to the corporate world. I don't know if it's really worth it anymore. I've thought about changing fields, but still not sure what I want to do, but I do know that I want to enjoy my job and my personal life more than I have in the past, so I guess that my priorities are changing. Anyway, I was always a driven person, so maybe I'm just having a mid-life crisis now.

[catdogandbirdmommy]

Interesting thread. I can relate to this because while I never wanted to go just for the MRS degree, my parents expected that. When I graduated high school the expectation was that while I could attend college, it was expected I was going to find a husband. My parents really believed that the wife's salary shouldn't be the main one since it never was with my parents (though later my mom had a full time job). I was pretty too and I always heard "you are too pretty to support yourself". However, I never wanted that at all, I wanted a career. I did get my bachelors and masters in communications and have had a career and not a husband. My career has taken a turn for the worse because of the economy and my job went overseas so I am heading back to college to become a teacher, what I always wanted. Ironically the men I tend to date are usually guys who make less than me or in different fields. My last boyfriend made about half than me.

This is going back 20 years, but I briefly attended college at a religious school (Catholic)and a huge percentage of my female classmates were there to find husbands. I don't know if they did but those I know who wanted careers all got them and still have them. I only attended for a semester then went to an art college and that was mostly people who were not interested in being stay at home moms.

I think it is dangerous to go to college only for a husband because I have noticed many of those ended up with low paying jobs and no husbands. For the most part the women I know who became stay at home moms were those who had great careers (one was the pr director for a Midwestern state).

[YPestis]

I'm beginning to understand it. I have two degrees, and have worked in my field since graduation. I'm in my mid 40's now. I've worked in corporate environments (my field is mainly situated in corp offices), and was at my last company for 10 years. I was in management the last few years, and it was not a good experience - I saw how upper mgt lied to people and burned them out - basically, they treated people poorly because they could, and blamed the economy. It was so frustrating, because I was high enough to see the shit, but too low to do much about it. Their strategy worked during the beginning of the recession, but when it started to get better, people left in droves. I realize that not all companies are like this, but it seems that more are going in this direction. I could go on, but I don't want to bore anyone. When my company lost a client contract and had to downsize my entire department last year, it was like a weight had been lifted off my shoulders - and others in my dept felt the same. I haven't started looking for another position yet, and am enjoying time off with my kids. Money is tighter, but we are making it work. But, I am seriously starting to question if I want to return to my profession and therefore to the corporate world. I don't know if it's really worth it anymore. I've thought about changing fields, but still not sure what I want to do, but I do know that I want to enjoy my job and my personal life more than I have in the past, so I guess that my priorities are changing. Anyway, I was always a driven person, so maybe I'm just having a mid-life crisis now.

I think women in this country have the option of a "graceful exit" from the work force. It's true, unless the household is independently wealthy, most families require at least one breadwinner to function. But for women, who still bear the responsibility of child care, they have an easier time of quitting and re-entering the workforce in a lesser capacity. They have the practical reason of being the primary caregiver and the the social accepted excuse that primary responsibility of homemaker fell to them. If a mother is torn between caring for home and working and she hates her job, it's just an "easier" decision to quit the job. In fact, women who work too hard may be seen as lacking in maternal affection.

OTOH, it's the opposite for men. If a man wants to stay home because the family can't afford daycare and he hates his job anyways, there's so much more crap he has to wade through.

Plus, men are still socially conditioned to provide, and many have a hard time stomaching the idea of being a SAH parent. Even my very enlightened husband confided in me he would not feel comfortable if he made less than me. He would feel he wasn't working hard enough, and that he was lazy because his wife makes more. I was quite shocked by this attitude given that he has always encouraged me in my career and shared many socially liberal values.

Women have it easier in this regard that they can have a hard charging career, but then quit and re-enter the workforce in a limited capacity without stigma. Men who do so is looked upon as lazy and a poor husband. We have gone a long way but the men sure need to get liberated too!

[Arete]

I know only one man that I grew up with who did the stay-at-home-dad thing for six years to get his kids into school and then back into the work force he went. The person who made him feel crappiest? His own father. The man was shocked to the core that he had somehow failed and raised a "lazy" son. It didn't matter that it made absolute sense based on the couple's earnings, positions, and temperaments. Not to mention it was always meant to be temporary. My friend and his wife took a look of flak doing right by their kids.

[Katiebug]

I think women in this country have the option of a "graceful exit" from the work force. It's true, unless the household is independently wealthy, most families require at least one breadwinner to function. But for women, who still bear the responsibility of child care, they have an easier time of quitting and re-entering the workforce in a lesser capacity. They have the practical reason of being the primary caregiver and the the social accepted excuse that primary responsibility of homemaker fell to them. If a mother is torn between caring for home and working and she hates her job, it's just an "easier" decision to quit the job. In fact, women who work too hard may be seen as lacking in maternal affection.

OTOH, it's the opposite for men. If a man wants to stay home because the family can't afford daycare and he hates his job anyways, there's so much more crap he has to wade through.

Plus, men are still socially conditioned to provide, and many have a hard time stomaching the idea of being a SAH parent. Even my very enlightened husband confided in me he would not feel comfortable if he made less than me. He would feel he wasn't working hard enough, and that he was lazy because his wife makes more. I was quite shocked by this attitude given that he has always encouraged me in my career and shared many socially liberal values.

Women have it easier in this regard that they can have a hard charging career, but then quit and re-enter the workforce in a limited capacity without stigma. Men who do so is looked upon as lazy and a poor husband. We have gone a long way but the men sure need to get liberated too!

I agree so much with this. Women who leave the workforce are in many cases lauded for that choice, while a man who seeks flexible work arrangements or leaves the workforce is subject to that stigma. There is very much a double standard in our culture. Women - especially professional women - are able to "off-ramp" their careers much more easily than men are.

When we have another child, my husband's take home pay will be eaten up by daycare and commuting expenses. We may actually lose money relative to what our financial situation would be if he was an at-home dad. The problem is that eventually he'd want to re-enter the workforce and that stigma would be there. Hiring managers will not look the same way at a woman and a man who each made the decision to be at home with their kids; it's socially acceptable for a woman to do so, while most still have some degree of bias against a man who makes the same choice. When he'd want to re-enter the workforce he'd basically be working in retail. So even though in the short term it won't make sense for him to keep working, he will. He provides good medical insurance through his employer (not an insignificant concern in the US), they're paying to send him to grad school, and he's building his 401(k) and moving up in his career. In the long run it's much better for us to take that short term financial hit and keep him in the workforce.

To be fair, with the economy the way it is, women are having issues returning to their old careers, too. I know one or two moms who were SAHMs who've been trying for several years to find a job in their old professions with absolutely no success. A woman who was an engineer is now working in retail and a woman who was a tenured teacher is a receptionist at a dentist's office. There is a real opportunity cost to leaving one's career path in most cases and it's a cost that many women either don't consider or underestimate. It's just that the cost is even higher for a man than for a woman.

And yes, men are socially conditioned to provide. My husband wishes he earned enough that he could give me the choice to be at home if I wanted to be. Then it'd be a decision that isn't based on financial need but on how I feel. He feels like a failure sometimes because he can't give me that choice (but I've given it to him). I've never understood why it doesn't work both ways emotionally - as long as someone is providing the income needed by the family and the children are well cared-for, why does it matter?I was raised in a family where both of my parents worked and once or twice during my childhood, my mom was the primary breadwinner because my dad was laid off. I think because it was the norm for my family to have both parents working and taking care of the kids, it's a lot easier for me to have an egalitarian attitude towards our family's lifestyle. My husband was raised in a family where his mom was at home until the kids were in school (even then she worked less than 15 hours/week) and she did most of the parenting and homemaking while his dad went out and worked. The gender roles were a lot more traditional for him and so when our family has deviated from that pattern it's harder for him to reconcile our reality with the values he was raised with.