Does the MRS degree still exist?

[Sweetpea1]

Hyles-Anderson College has a degree for women in 'Marriage and Motherhood' where courses include:Drapery Sewing and Using a Slow Cooker. I don't have any girls, but if I did I'd much rather she get a degree in Software Engineering.

Why does someone need a class on how to use a slow cooker? The stupid is hurting my brain

[nokidsmom]

I ran into the "MRS degree" while attending an evangelical Christian college that catered to conservative evangelicals and some fundie-lites. Before that I had never heard of it. A lot of the student body were kids whose parents had also attended and met their spouses there, so a lot of them were aiming for same. A good percentage of female students were really on the wife/SAHM track with no plans to work except maybe to have something to do if they graduated college while still single. Any job was to kill time until they married. A lot of them studied nursing. The really big aim was to marry a future pastor and their job would be to support the husband in his church work.

While not all female students were like this, the whole MRS degree idea was prevalent enough that it made it more difficult for students like myself (who were really there for an education and had career goals) to be taken seriously. If you said you planned to have a career they looked at you like you had two heads. In fact, I was briefly engaged to a seminary student and when I broke up with him, it was shocking that I turned down my true and proper path.

This was 27 years ago however, I have enough ties to the school to know that this MRS degree thing has not died. My two cousins, both in their late 20's, reported the MRS degree was alive and well on their college campus.

ETA: That college was different from the one I attended and affiliated with a mainstream Protestant denomination.

Edited for grammar

[snarkbillie]

A friend has a son who went into college this semester. Picked a very conservative out of state college (Gothard's alma mater actually), but is intent on continuing on elsewhere to med school after his undergraduate. His girlfriend of 2 years had enough scholarships and such to go to any college in our local area and asked me which one. I told her to go to the very nice state school. She didn't like this advice because she was "a Christian" and decided to go to the fundamentalist Baptist one where degrees are separated by gender. I get the feeling that she's probably going to get a useless degree and hopes that his medical career will pay her way. I don't doubt that she realizes there even is another way. It's exceedingly sad. My friend is not even fundie-lite, so I don't know where her son and his girlfriend get this from. I had a long discussion with my husband about it and he agreed with me that we would not support our daughters going to a college like this young girl is going to. While there are great "religious" colleges around here should they choose one over secular state school, the kind this girl is going to is beyond the pale.

[sparkles]

The MRS degree does indeed still exist; my sister is living proof of it...and how it can destroy you.

Despite coming from background that's about as liberal and un-fundie as you can get, where our mother set a great example by going back to college at age 40 and then earning a law degree (she's still practicing at 78 representing poor and indigent clients), my sister was a throwback. She never had illusions of being anything other than a pampered princess and there was no shortage of men who were willing to provide that for her. Once married, she led a very pampered life and maintained her princess status, even though all of her friends had careers, started their own businesses, etc., in addition to keeping up with the Joneses in a wealthy suburb of NY. Unfortunately, my sister now finds herself in a position not unlike that of a fundie wife who suddenly finds herself without a headship. She's been divorced for many years (she got a very handsome settlement), recently ditched a wealthy long-term boyfriend who indulged her every whim, she will be losing her maintenance as of next year...and has absolutely no skills or means of support whatsoever, as she hasn't held a job in nearly 30 years. What's so sad is that she really does have talent and intelligence (as well as good looks and that DOES count for something) , but she did nothing with any of it. She's just waking up to reality and realizing that she wasted so much time being blind to her situation (we've been begging her to think about her future for years) and she's absolutely paralyzed with fear and depression because frankly, once her maintenance runs out she will be below the poverty line. She's so overwhelmed right now she's made herself physically ill. The parallels between my sister's situation and that of a fundie aren't lost on me. Unfortunately, god will NOT provide.

[wtfrenchtoast]

I go to a very career-oriented university, but one of my dearest friends does seem to want the MRS degree. She's brilliant and she has a great job right now, with a lot of room for moving up. I know she'll take the opportunities offered to her, but I think all she really wants to do is be a SAHM like her own mother. And honestly I don't have a problem with it. Because as of now, she's earning a degree that will help her support herself if she doesn't get married right away. But there are some women who really just want to run their household, and I think she's one of them. I wouldn't mind being a SAHM, but I think I would get bored after a while. I would need at least something to do on the side. I'm earning a degree that will support me by myself though. I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I didn't have any other options than to get married.

[lilwriter85]

Freshman year of engineering, I was stunned when one of my friends said she expected to give up her career as soon as she got married. She had always wanted to be a SAHM, and engineering was her way of meeting guys (I guess?). By junior year, though, she expressed a different opinion. She said she was working too hard for her degree to just give it up completely because she became a mother. I was happy that she saw value in her degree and the work she put into it.

I've never understood why someone would go out of their way to marry a doctor. Is money really more important than love? Also, do they expect that the doctor would just let them spend all their money? I'm dating a medical student, and I cannot imagine putting up with medicine (and the debt that accompanies it) if you didn't love it or the person doing it.

There are some women and men who pretty much think being married to a doctor will bring them instant wealth and when that doesn't happen, problems happen. One of my paternal aunts was married to a doctor. They married during his second year of medical school. She has said that being married to a med student was tough and after he finished med school, it took several years for them to get ahead financially. There were times in which they cut several corners to pay off loans. They ended up divorcing because he had an affair. He later married the woman who he had an affair with. My aunt's ex is a general practitioner who has worked at clinics. He has never made huge salaries, his second wife landed them in bankruptcy ten years after they had married. My aunt found out about this when her son was about to graduate from high school and the ex said he wouldn't be able to help out with college. I have a guy friend who is in his third year of med school. He is single and a lot of people at this school have told that is good that he is single. He said he has heard several stories of people who marry med students and end up being annoyed later on when the couples have to face the debt after medical school.

[lilwriter85]

I go to a very career-oriented university, but one of my dearest friends does seem to want the MRS degree. She's brilliant and she has a great job right now, with a lot of room for moving up. I know she'll take the opportunities offered to her, but I think all she really wants to do is be a SAHM like her own mother. And honestly I don't have a problem with it. Because as of now, she's earning a degree that will help her support herself if she doesn't get married right away. But there are some women who really just want to run their household, and I think she's one of them. I wouldn't mind being a SAHM, but I think I would get bored after a while. I would need at least something to do on the side. I'm earning a degree that will support me by myself though. I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I didn't have any other options than to get married.

I don't have issues with women wanting to be SAHMs, if they have degrees or backup plans in case. I have read Mormon mommy blogs here and there and some of those women seem to love being SAHMs and I have noticed that a lot of them have degrees and worked prior to having kids. A few of them have said they got their degrees as backup plans. I do worry about a lot of these fundie SAHMs because a lot of them don't have degrees or any type of work experience.

[Spider Burps]

As horrible as it is, I totally went to college to get my MRS, but I didn't realize it at the time.

I was raised in a fairly well off family and it was assumed that I would (point out my grandfather's many years of donations and) go to Harvard, where I would study Very Important Things and become a Very Important Person--preferably a Very Important Lawyer, representing clubbed baby seals or something equally humanitarian. I never really bought into that and never found anything I was interested in studying formally. It took me way too long to realize that I've always been a housewife at heart, even though I was absolutely miserable (to the point of clinical depression) working outside the home.

Fortunately for my lazy ass, I was already dating my husband when I was deciding what to do after high school. Before I met him, I had intended to go to the Air Force Academy. Srsly. (I was kicking ass at drill in AFJROTC, so I could've gotten a scholarship. Plus, I looked hot in the skirt version of the uniform. I would've been eaten alive.) I ended up following Mr. Burps to a state university a few hours from our hometown; I dropped out after a couple of years because my mom stopped paying my tuition and I didn't want any student loan debt (though I often blame my then-undiagnosed ADHD and long lived chronic pain). I followed Mr. Burps around until he got his masters and a job. About nine months later, we got married thus making my being a housewife (rather than a house-fiancee) an "acceptable job".

Rebellion comes in all forms, eh? :lol:

[nokidsmom]

I go to a very career-oriented university, but one of my dearest friends does seem to want the MRS degree. She's brilliant and she has a great job right now, with a lot of room for moving up. I know she'll take the opportunities offered to her, but I think all she really wants to do is be a SAHM like her own mother. And honestly I don't have a problem with it. Because as of now, she's earning a degree that will help her support herself if she doesn't get married right away. But there are some women who really just want to run their household, and I think she's one of them. I wouldn't mind being a SAHM, but I think I would get bored after a while. I would need at least something to do on the side. I'm earning a degree that will support me by myself though. I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I didn't have any other options than to get married.

In general, I think even women who want to go the SAHM route should still pursue an education or receive training that will help earn a living and be prepared for the possibility that they may have to do that. So, that's good for both you and your friend. While there nothing wrong with wanting be a SAHM at all, and I will grant that there are times where being one for a while works out best, but unforeseen stuff happens. You don't get married as planned, or husband leaves, dies, gets sick or disabled or loses his job. What concerns me is when young women don't think anything can possibily happen or "God will provide" or it will "all work out somehow" therefore setting themselves up for a very rude economic awakening down the line.

[ExCatholic]

I recently graduated from a liberal college. I'm shocked at the number of my girl friends who are either recently married or about to marry and plan to put off their job searches for a year or two to "get their new house in order." Mr. ExC and I bought our house before we got married and both work fulltime, and as far as I can tell the house is fine...

The weirdest part is all these girls seemed so into finding great careers!

[lilwriter85]

In general, I think even women who want to go the SAHM route should still pursue an education or receive training that will help earn a living and be prepared for the possibility that they may have to do that. So, that's good for both you and your friend. While there nothing wrong with wanting be a SAHM at all, and I will grant that there are times where being one for a while works out best, but unforeseen stuff happens. You don't get married as planned, or husband leaves, dies, gets sick or disabled or loses his job. What concerns me is when young women don't think anything can possibily happen or "God will provide" or it will "all work out somehow" therefore setting themselves up for a very rude economic awakening down the line.[/quote]

I'm also concerned about that. I have seen some fundie bloggers say stuff like that. There was a woman who posted on Lori Alexander's blog, that if something ever happened to her husband, her church and relatives would take care of her and her kids. I doubt that would happen. Churches can only do so much to help people in need. I can't see anyone being supported by family members for years.

[Kitty]

I come from an area that traditionally relied upon heavy industry, factories and mines. When I left senior school there was a lot of underachievement going on which was not seen as a problem as school leavers would leave school at 16 and go straight into blue collar job. Among my peers few of us went to college and fewer still went to university. Back then many of the girls in my class left school on the Friday and started work at the clothing factories on Monday morning. The boys went straight into the steel works or mines. For the girls they stayed at their factory jobs until they got married and then they left to have their first baby. That was twenty-seven years ago.

Industry around here has been decimated (actually that's an understatement). Where there were around 15 clothing factories in my town there is now one. There is one mine left out of dozens and the steel works is down to one site rather than the five it had spread across town. There just isn't the jobs any more. But, there is still the underachievement. Whereas before the girls left school, worked in a factory until marriage and then became a SAHM, now invariably they are pregnant within a year or two of finishing at school. We have problems here with boys not finding work and they end up in trouble with the police. The girls end up as single parents and the cycle starts again.

When the industry ended nothing was put in its place. Very little effort was made to increase educational attainment. There's a slightly higher percentage of teens who go on to college and university, but it isn't high enough.

I was one of the lucky ones in that 'got out'. I went to college and university, but even then it's surprising how many were just biding their time until a husband came along. I think now, for better educated teens, it is changing. But for many working class teens they still have poor prospects.

that's how Hometown was, in 2010. Except that there are no factories or mines nearby. The only real industries are farming, government work, and tourism... And you need university to work in the government. A lot of.kids dropped out as soon as they could. The ones I graduated with are parents, married, or pregnant. A lot of my friends from too years ago used to be cool, now their Facebook statuses are all about them playing.house. what's even weirder is that the vast majority of them came from a city in Virginia where this shit would never fly.

I too am among the few who got out. Most people who went to school beyond high school went to the local community college. Two fundie-lite sisters went to pretty good universities. Both got married in their second year. The older sister dropped out... I don't know about the younger sister, but she did go to Liberty University and I doubt shes still there. Yes, the MRS degree still exists, but uve made it clear that mind will be post-baccalaureate.

[Arete]

How about both parents as equal breadwinners? Do the men you know expect women to be partner-breadwinners?

I'm in my 40s and grew up in a mixed immigrant neighborhood, and am also the child of immigrants. Just putting that out there so you can understand the background. The men I knew/know expect partners, not helpmeets, but they were raised with the expectation that they would make as much or more than their wives. Most of these men are now in dual career households.

The big mental block for my generation/socioeconomic situation is a woman as the sole breadwinner in the marriage. It always reflects poorly on the husband. The husband may be out of work and that's OK if he is looking for another job. A man that makes a choice to stay home as a house husband is dismissed as lazy, and his wife is pitied. There is no greater insult for most of the men I grew up with than being called lazy. It cuts them to the bone. It also boxes in men who would really be better deployed as the house parent while the wife worked.

[lovefromgirl]

As any FJerite knows, fundies push their daughters to focus on marriage and finding the Right Guy within the construct of some contrived courtship process (blech). However, as much as we pride ourselves on the opportunities available to women today, it's not that long ago that the ideal was to snatch a high paying husband. I went to a top notch college less than a decade ago, and even there, I met people who were biding their time and looking for a husband. How about the posters here? Anyone with that experience?

Gad, no, but I hung around with people who a) were never middle-class and b) didn't hope for husbands, necessarily. ;)

In all seriousness, especially after my childhood, I'm running from the notion of being some kept wife. Never did understand the point of making myself vulnerable -- why should a woman not know how to get a real living? Why should a woman depend on anyone but herself under normal circumstances? Oh, hell, Renunciate leanings showing through, but even the women I've known who did marry more or less out of school can earn at least a paltry living if they must. One close friend is the breadwinner and another is supplementing household income while her kids are babies by teaching music privately.

[eta] I began college in 2004, for the record. Not quite a decade ago. The music-teaching mum is two years older and the breadwinner is my age. I don't recall what their expectations were of their husbands. All three of us are sensible women who have found sensible partners, and not just when it comes to money. I think that's the biggest one for me: no matter what zie earns, zie must know how to live within zir means. I won't look twice at a big spender unless zie earns enough to support that lifestyle. Even then I'd feel adrift if I weren't working toward a career of my own/having said career. I am an immigrant's daughter who is herself sort of an immigrant, partnered to another immigrant (!). My friends? Americans married to Americans. So at least in my tiny sampling, it is a universal desire to be secure but not necessarily looked-after.

[shesinsane]

I was in college in the mid 90s, and had a friend who's career ambition was to become a housewive, despite the tons of money her parents were paying in tuition so she could have some sort of career. That's what she said, "I'm studying international affairs but what I really want to do is have a bunch of kids and raise them". Today's she's not married (never has been), living with her parents and her two kids by two different baby daddies, and working several minimum wages jobs to pay the bills.

I had another friend who was very studious and serious and went to law school right right after graduation. She got her law degree and started practicing... I don't know what happened exactly, but she met a man and now she's a stay at home mom with 4 kids under 5. Her blog mentioned that her eldest daughter "has a servant's heart" and I worry that she's getting fundie and her daughters won't have the same opportunities she had. I mean, it's great that she's got a law degree and chooses not to use it, but it's her choice. I hope she allows her daughters to get an education and decide for themselves if they want a husband to support them or not.

[Rosie]

I don't have issues with women wanting to be SAHMs, if they have degrees or backup plans in case. I have read Mormon mommy blogs here and there and some of those women seem to love being SAHMs and I have noticed that a lot of them have degrees and worked prior to having kids. A few of them have said they got their degrees as backup plans. I do worry about a lot of these fundie SAHMs because a lot of them don't have degrees or any type of work experience.

I think every adult should be capable of supporting him/herself and any child/ren s/he may have. Anyone who is not so capable is, IMO, irresponsible.

I do, to some degree, have issues with women who aspire to be SAHMs, because in effect, they are making a job-hunt out of dating. By definition, I assume, they exclude from consideration anyone who cannot support them in the lifestyle to which they aspire. This is bothersome to me because in effect it dehumanizes the dating/marriage process and makes it into an economic transaction.

[Arete]

Marriage has always been an economic transaction. It is only in the last century did it come to be seen as more than an economic transaction.

[caito]

Where I come from the bible belt south, it seems most of the upper middle class girls went to nursing school. For some reason it seems healthcare is the end all be all for a TOOOOOOOOON of people. I saw *one* girl who's in law school, and I was actually pleasantly surprised.

But yes, judging from what the girls on facebook studied in college, it does seem like they just went to college to find a husband. Now that we're 24-25 years old, they're all getting married and stuff. The things they studied or the jobs they have seem like they're going to be supplemental toward their husbands much more lucrative careers.

I'm a SAHM though. I'm okay with it. I work online part-time. I plan to work and attend college when my daughter goes to school. My husband and I did things out of order and it's made it hard, but there's still time for us to go to school and make a better life.

[Rosie]

Marriage has always been an economic transaction. It is only in the last century did it come to be seen as more than an economic transaction.

Understood - but this has become less and less so as women have become increasingly able to support ourselves and our children. Most divorces are initiated by women.

RE dating as economic transaction: If, in the search for a spouse you are eliminating from consideration anyone who cannot singlehandedly support you and future children in the style you require, IMO the whole process becomes mercenary in a very ugly way.

[Ralar]

My best friend from law school dated a woman who was a fine arts (photography) major. When they both graduated, they got engaged. She went home to the Midwest to plan the wedding and worked for a few months in a photo studio. She has not worked since they married. 20 years later, they have three kids and are in the middle of a divorce -- my former best friend decided that a 23-year-old girlfriend would be nice. Both husband and wife are from wealthy families and the husband has done very well as an ambulance chaser. My friend (the wife -- I no longer speak with the husband/pig) will be very comfortable after the settlement is finalized.

FWIW, my friend never worked outside the home, but she has raised 3 kids, puts a restaurant-quality meal on the table most nights, and volunteers at the kids' school and in her community. She may have an MRS degree, but she is no doormat.

[Rosie]

My best friend from law school dated a woman who was a fine arts (photography) major. When they both graduated, they got engaged. She went home to the Midwest to plan the wedding and worked for a few months in a photo studio. She has not worked since they married. 20 years later, they have three kids and are in the middle of a divorce -- my former best friend decided that a 23-year-old girlfriend would be nice. Both husband and wife are from wealthy families and the husband has done very well as an ambulance chaser. My friend (the wife -- I no longer speak with the husband/pig) will be very comfortable after the settlement is finalized.

FWIW, my friend never worked outside the home, but she has raised 3 kids, puts a restaurant-quality meal on the table most nights, and volunteers at the kids' school and in her community. She may have an MRS degree, but she is no doormat.

I am glad for your friend, who sounds like a strong and capable person, but statistically speaking, she is in a small minority. Alimony is no longer mandated in most states, and divorcing SAHMs are expected to get a job and support themselves.

Statistically, most divorced women experience a decline in their economic status, while most divorced men experience an improvement in theirs post-divorce.

http://www.soc.washington.edu/users/brines/petersen.pdf

[Ralar]

I am glad for your friend, who sounds like a strong and capable person, but statistically speaking, she is in a small minority. Alimony is no longer mandated in most states, and divorcing SAHMs are expected to get a job and support themselves.

Statistically, most divorced women experience a decline in their economic status, while most divorced men experience an improvement in theirs post-divorce.

http://www.soc.washington.edu/users/brines/petersen.pdf

I agree with you. I'm glad that things are working out well for my friend, though. FWIW, her soon-to-be-ex has attached himself to a woman wealthier than he -- with 5 kids from 4 different men!

[J'ean Skirt]

I spent a lot of time as a kid swearing I wasn't ever getting married. There are a lot of reasons why, some rational some... a symptom of my upbringing (shall we say). But that meant I wasn't driven to find a guy and get married and it never dawned on me that I would have anyone to support me.

I did believe that part of my responsibility as a wife would be to support a husband's job, without question.

I did get married (at 29) to a wonderful guy. We were talking while unloading the dishwasher one night and I made some comment about it being a wife's job to sublimate her career into his. That if he got a great job offer, I'd have to move. He looked at me weirdly and said "Why?"

I had no answer for him. "Because you're the man and your job / needs are more important" was the only answer I could come up with. It was kinda baffling to him that I would just say his job was more important.

We started our own business 10+ years ago, so our financial / work lives are a lot different than most dual-professional couples so it's not an actual issue for us. But I still find it pretty amazing how easily I slipped into "wife << husband"

[nokidsmom]

Understood - but this has become less and less so as women have become increasingly able to support ourselves and our children. Most divorces are initiated by women.

RE dating as economic transaction: If, in the search for a spouse you are eliminating from consideration anyone who cannot singlehandedly support you and future children in the style you require, IMO the whole process becomes mercenary in a very ugly way.

Yes, even now there are women for whom dating and marriage is an economic transaction. My SIL was one. She grew up very spoiled and married a guy who indulged her completely but only after stringing him along for years and other, um, wealthier prospects didn't pan out. And her own mother encouraged her to go after these wealthy guys because they could do for her and by extension the whole family as well. Her daughter also held out for the one that offered the best economic prospects, but she got pregnant to snag him. It is quite ugly.

[Kitty]

Where I come from the bible belt south, it seems most of the upper middle class girls went to nursing school. For some reason it seems healthcare is the end all be all for a TOOOOOOOOON of people. I saw *one* girl who's in law school, and I was actually pleasantly surprised.

SOOOOO THIS. Did you grow up in Hometown? The reason I felt so much RAAAGE toward the end of my time there was because nothing I wanted to do with my life was acceptable. I wanted to travel, go to university, possibly become a teacher, and live elsewhere in North Carolina. Everyone else considered that to be pissing away money when I could stay at home with my parents, work some shitty minimum-wage job dealing with asshole tourists, go to community college and become a CNA, later going to THE nursing school in Norfolk, VA, and becoming a nurse. Never mind that I feel faint at even pictures of needles going into people's skin, and get queasy at the thought of handling someone else's bodily fluids, I'm just too whatever to be a teacher or anything else! :evil: Oh, and teachers make more than CNAs do in a year. So yeah, strangely enough I'm one of the few in my graduating class who isn't trying to support a kid or afford a wedding on a CNA's salary.