What is so great about public schooling?

[Conuly]

I'm sorry I keep returning to this thread, obviously it struck a nerve. Here is another thing I am sick to death of hearing:

I mean. What. the. FUCK. I love teenagers. I love having them around. My son's friends - male and female - spend a great deal of time at my house (ages 17-18) and I would rather spend time with them then just about anyone. Teenagers are a riot! Their ideas and energy are completely refreshing. And yes, I know, in fundieland the age I just mentioned may as well be an adult, but my kids' friends have ALWAYS come over. If they were ever sullen it was for good reason, and their "mischief making" was always totally appropriate and funny. I wonder if any of these yahoos have ever spent any time in the company of an average teen.

Well, remember, for them ANY mood other than cheerful is sinful and wrong. ANY disagreement with parents is defiance and sinful and wrong.

So a teenager who's upset about having a curfew 45 minutes earlier than his friends can't possibly have a good point, he's being sullen. One who wants to have a different set of chores is sullen. One who ever argues with her mother, or gets sad because of a family issue is sullen, which is sinful and wrong.

Real teenagers have good moods and bad, because they're people. They disagree with their parents and sometimes it's for a good reason and sometimes it's for a bad reason and sometimes they express their disagreement more eloquently than other times. But if you're invested in a model that says the only appropriate reaction from your child, ever, is unquestioning cheerful obedience, then anything else is sinful and "sullen" and wrong.

[jenny_islander]

OK, here's a more detailed deconstruction, because good GRIEF.

Children learn a lot in school, to be sure.

They learn to become insensitive, tough and hopeless if they are being bullied and nobody is helping. This is not intrinsic to public schools.

They learn to think of their parents as outsiders that are out of step--even controlling --because every child on Earth has to establish his or her own identity, which comes with a big dose of thinking that parents are stupid and they just don't understand. Some are just trained to pretend to their parents that they don't think these things.

If they are taught about God at all, He is merely an afterthought; He has absolutely nothing to do with art, literature, math, science, history or any other area of study. I could fill up a page and a half with what is wrong with this statement, starting with the thorough grounding in the culture of American Christendom that I received in history class, going on through questioning why God needs to be dragged into math class in the first place, and ending with the observation that, God be thanked, we do not live in a theocracy.

They soon learn that friends are more important than anything else in life, including familial ties or personal moral convictions. 1. This is also a natural part of growing up; adults are meant to form attachments outside the family. 2. If your child dumps your teachings in favor of friends, reexamine your teaching methods and the things you tried to teach before blaming the child.

They learn that serious relationships are quite disposable. What? How does this make any sense? Are they talking about courting? The people who talk about courting generally talk about heroic theocratic Founding Fathers and such. I wonder what would happen to their brainpans if they googled, for example, colonial bundling.

That despondency is unavoidable in a cold, vain, material world. What, because isolation and carefully censored glimpses of the outside world will guarantee that children will be happy, happy, happy, happy, happy all the TIIIIIIIME? If that's what you believe, you were sold a bill of goods and you are letting your kids down.

They wind up "searing their own consciences" in a desperate attempt at personal fulfillment through countless shopping sprees (materialism), by "self-medicating" through the use of recreational drugs and alcoholic binging and abuse or via a never-ending pursuit of mind-numbing video gaming.

Misquote of 1 Timothy 4:2, which refers to people who abandon Christianity in favor of deceptive and destructive teachings. It is the purveyors of such teachings who are described as having cauterized their own consciences. Not the victims. The irony of citing this verse in this context is sharp. Also, way to heap extra shame on people who are probably attempting to self-medicate for the depression that fundamentalists tend to ascribe to personal sin in the first place.

Schooling teaches parents a number of things.

Parents learn that bright, sweet pre-schoolers must indeed turn into sullen, disagreeable mischief-makers by the tender ages of 9 and 11. I think one of the worst disservices fundamentalism does to children is calling all sorts of things sin that are just children growing up and being, you know, not appendages or prizes or collectibles, but people. Early adolescence is a difficult time for kids. Their bodies are doing all kinds of stuff out of their control (settle down, you sex-obsessed fundamentalists, I mean sweatig and growing hair and changing shape!) and they are itching to step out into the larger world at the same time that looming responsibility terrifies them. A certain amount of bumptiousness is inevitable at this age. Compounding this by treating children as horrid little rebels steeped in sin is the parents' fault.

Good parents are those who go along with everything the school advocates to their families. Evening fellowship time must be taken up by homework. Vacations are subject to the school schedule, no matter how extraordinary the opportunity. Dad and Mom learn they are under secret surveillance by their youngsters, who are taught to become informers of any parental "misbehavior". Translation: I can't be bothered to join the PTA. I would rather whine about homework on my blog than stand up to the school culture that assigns way too much of it these days. I can't be bothered to look up the school's absentee policy and plan accordingly. And mandatory reporters who cannot ignore things "the world" calls physical abuse and neglect of children get up my nose. Plumbing Line is Biblical, End of Thought.

The family paycheck must be spent on the newest fashions, fads and trinkets, even though they will end up in next year's trash heap, they must be purchased or their children will be subject to sanctioning by "the pack". Translation: I can't be bothered to combat bullying in my local school.

No matter how long they have lived, or how much they may have learned, or especially how dearly they love their precious children and have their best interests at heart, fathers and mothers must submit and take their place as irrelevant buffoons (or even malevolent abusers) when their advice is compared to that of the public school teachers, counselors, administrators and social-workers. See, here's the thing: If you actually built a firm foundation, your kids would probably stay on it. (Because they are individuals, not product, there is of course no guarantee of this.) Also if the social worker is involved, you are coming off as a malevolent abuser or at best an irrelevant buffoon, to a whole lot of people.

In the end, parents learn the lesson that children are expensive, unpleasant nuisances.Because they need . . . pencils and box lunches and to be talked to like the maturing, developing, thinking beings they are?

[Kristelle]

They soon learn that friends are more important than anything else in life, including familial ties or personal moral convictions.

I never understood why fundies hate their kids having friends so much. It's actually a little disturbing.

I mean, what's so special about blood family anyway? Why should you like someone just because they're related to you? Friends are like the family you chose, which makes them way more important than blood family, in my opinion.

[Edited for unnecessary comma]

[JMarie]

Of course, she's also comletely against college.

[CanadianHippie]

I never understood why fundies hate their kids having friends so much. It's actually a little disturbing.

I mean, what's so special about blood family anyway? Why should you like someone just because they're related to you? Friends are like, the family you chose, which makes them way more important than blood family, in my opinion.

Because friends might actually encourage their children to question the parents overzealous religious beliefs.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think this sounds kinda suspicious, especially because of all the references to the kids thinking of their parents as controlling or malevolent abusers, or informing the school on things the parents are doing. It sounds more like "We dont want our children to tell the teachers about the child training methods we use".

It also seems they dont want their child to know that not everyone lives like they do, if the children are taught only by their parents, they wont get outside influences. They wont ever get the chance to talk to an atheist, or gay person, or a woman that works, and realise they arent evil people with no morals. The parents think their child cant rebel if they dont have any role models other than their parents and dont see how other people live.

Im glad I went to school, and Im glad I have the internet. If not, I would probably be just the same as the Duggar daughters are, and not aware of the wonderful world of non fundie rebellion out there.

[emilymea]

What I learned in public schools:

I could build a model roller coaster and mathematically explain how it worked.

I could take on a challenging subject, learn it, and later help someone else with it.

Everyone has different abilities and that's ok because a person's value isn't determined by how smart they are.

Volunteering is a good thing.

Not everyone believes the same way as I do.

I can mess up royally in a situation and learn from it.

Relationships are more important than grades.

Theatre is both a fun experience and a growing experience.

People don't like me because of what I can do with them, but because of who I am as an individual.

[Dixiebelle]

Oh, good grief. In my fundie days, I bought into this hook, line and sinker. My husband would not allow me to home school, so I was stuck in that limbo where fellow fundies would shake their heads sympathetically and say "well, you DO have to obey your headship" (what they were thinking was, too bad your kids are going to be godless and screwed up for life. Bummer)

My oldest is 21 and a senior in college, on scholarship, straight As. He loves spending time with his family and always has. The next is 18, on his way to college on scholarship, also loves family time. I'm not saying this to brag but to show "those people" that public school isn't what "ruins" people.

On the other hand, many of the kids i know who home schooled and raised ultra fundie HAVE rebelled.

I don't think one is better than the other. I think everyone has to do what's best for them. I would be a perfectly miserable person if I had let not homeschooling make me bitter. Amazes me now how I could have been the one making that post, back when my oldest was in 1st grade, and I actually believed I was sending him off to the devil for the day. :shock:

edited to put "ruin" in quotes so it doesn't look so stupid

[jesssnerch]

I don't know why people feel if you are deciding to homeschool then public school is evil or vice versa. There are positives to both. We've done public school and it was fantastic. This year we're homeschooling because our family need a flexible schedule for some travelling we'd like to do. My kids will probably be back in public school in a year or two. If done correctly, both types of schooling are effective. I'm not sure why people- especially fundies- feel like the method they're using to educate their children IS THE ONLY WAY OMG !!!!!ELEVENTY!!!!!

[emmiedahl]

I have actually done every form of schooling possible--traditional homeschooling, unschooling (kinda... we still had a math curriculum), private schools, charter schools, public schools. Sometimes several at once, such as when we had children in both private and public schools because the private school was not equipped to deal with my stepson's learning disability. They were all good. And when they ceased to be just perfect for the child in question, we made a new plan.

It does not really matter where my children are educated as long as it is safe and non-abusive. We are a household of bookish people who love learning and my kids have only been exposed to that attitude. My ultimate goal is for them to reach adulthood ready to embrace it. To be a good citizen who can understand different angles of civic issues, to have the ability and inclination to get the training and education they need to follow their callings. If I were to limit my options, I would be limiting my child's possibilities and I am so not cool with that.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Theres nothing wrong with homeschooling, as long as the child is getting a proper education that wont put them at a disadvantage when they are older (like if a parents idea of homeschooling is teaching them only about religion with a tiny bit of basic reading and writing), and they are also getting a chance to socialise and interact with other children.

The problem with the fundie parents homeschooling is that most of the time they are incompetent at it and responsible for educating way too many children at the same time of different ages and abilities)

[DistantStar]

I went to public schools all the way through high school, and I came out mostly okay in the end -- and, get this fundies, a virgin. And I even had a boyfriend in high school! We just never went past making out and a bit of feeling up. I knew too much about possible consequences to want to actually Do It. Seriously. Yes, having accurate and fairly detailed information about sex caused me to make an informed decision that was right for me. *watches fundie heads spin*

I was never taught anything about religion being evil, or my parents being controlling, or any of that. Count me in with the crowd that thinks the fundies don't trust public school teachers not to report obvious child abuse and that being one major reason they don't want their kids near schools.

I am all for competent education, be it in schools or at home. The key word there is "competent." The socialization arguments are harder for me; I think a homeschooled kid with a lot of exposure to other people and kids in various age groups has a better chance at healthy socialization than a kid like I was in middle school who became almost totally convinced the whole world hated her because God knows almost everybody at school did and nothing was done about the psychological and emotional bullying. But I survived that; I actually think my Trekkie nerdiness carried me through, because I was able to imagine a future where none of that shit would go down.

Let it be said that with my full public school education and three-ish years of college and a fair bit of reading and stuff on my own since, I would not feel comfortable homeschooling a child much past elementary school without a lot of help. Especially in math. I don't fear the fundies taking over because I think given a couple of generations of homeschooling by incompetent people they won't have enough knowledge to take care of themselves and the whole thing will implode. Even the Amish have actual schooling through eighth grade, which is inadequate IMO (to be fair, I think if you go back to when they fought for that an eighth grade education was probably more equivalent to high school now as far as finding work goes and I'd be rethinking that standard if I were them) but worlds better than the SODRT.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Theres nothing wrong with homeschooling, as long as the child is getting a proper education that wont put them at a disadvantage when they are older (like if a parents idea of homeschooling is teaching them only about religion with a tiny bit of basic reading and writing), and they are also getting a chance to socialise and interact with other children.

The problem with the fundie parents homeschooling is that most of the time they are incompetent at it and responsible for educating way too many children at the same time of different ages and abilities)

Problem is, though, right now in most states there are NO requirements in place to check on the parents' qualifications or ensure that they are using an accurate curriculum. In fact you have groups like HSLDA that are actively working against these kinds of things.

[ILoveJellybeans]

There should be though, they should have to follow the normal school curriculum for a child who is at the level they are at, as we are taught things in school for a reason, so shouldnt be able to pick and choose as children have the right to know it.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

There should be though, they should have to follow the normal school curriculum for a child who is at the level they are at, as we are taught things in school for a reason, so shouldnt be able to pick and choose as children have the right to know it.

Every time a rational set of guidelines is proposed the HSLDA and their ilk hit the roof and declare that homeschooling is going to be made illegal and homeschooling parents are going to have CPS knocking down their doors.

[JesusFightClub]

I have actually done every form of schooling possible--traditional homeschooling, unschooling (kinda... we still had a math curriculum), private schools, charter schools, public schools. Sometimes several at once, such as when we had children in both private and public schools because the private school was not equipped to deal with my stepson's learning disability. They were all good. And when they ceased to be just perfect for the child in question, we made a new plan.

It does not really matter where my children are educated as long as it is safe and non-abusive. We are a household of bookish people who love learning and my kids have only been exposed to that attitude. My ultimate goal is for them to reach adulthood ready to embrace it. To be a good citizen who can understand different angles of civic issues, to have the ability and inclination to get the training and education they need to follow their callings. If I were to limit my options, I would be limiting my child's possibilities and I am so not cool with that.

This, so much. You put the point much more eloquently than I could ever.

[Miggy]

I am a public school teacher.

To my students;

You are not just one in a crowd. I will make an effort to get to know you. I will get to know your learning style so that I can tailor lessons to suit you. I will get to know your personality and interests so that I can make the lessons interesting and appropriate for you. Are you shy? I will not ask you to do a speech in front of the school. Are you confident at attempting new things? I will step back and let you experiment. I will respect who you are as a person and I will do everything I can to make school a positive experience and educate you to the best of my ability. In return, I ask you to respect me and my abilities.

To the parents of my students;

I believe education is a partnership between student, parents and teachers. The best results will be achieved when we all work together. I will never push you out of your childs life. After all, they are only at school for six hours a day. You have them for the other eighteen hours. I offer you an invitation to come and visit my classroom and see your child at work. Talk to your child about what they have learnt or even better, ask them show you. I will not put down your religion or family values nor will I push my own religion onto your child but I will teach love, kindness, compassion, empathy, self-control and discipline. (I stress that I will TEACH discipline. I will not hit your children. This is not discipline. It is punishment.) Remember our aim is the same; to see your child grow up to be a happy, healthy, well-educated, socially-able adult.