Selective Reduction

[ceg045]

This is why I'm happy MWOP has gone to separate on- and off-topic threads.

This way, if/when there's Mckraziness, I can catch up, but without having to wade through post after post of conservative suburban soccer mom drama and/or politics.

In other news, best of luck to this woman and her family.

[Minerva]

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster.

I think this is one of those things that you will never understand until you are forced to make that decision.

During my twin pregnancy, we found out that our twins at Twin to Twin Transfusion Syndrome. This was in the early 2000s where there were two places in the the US that performed in utero surgery that was hopeful to save the life of at least one baby, and my insurance company would only pay for the surgery in FL (we live in Seattle), and still a majority of babies with that condition in a severe state died no matter what. At any moment, where my donor twin to die, he would bleed out into his brother, essentially, meaning brain damage and probably death for the surviving twin as well. We hovered on the edge of qualifying for the surgery (obviously, in utero laser surgery is highly risky, as is cross country travel afterwards, and my insurance would have permitted me to stay in the hospital no more than 36 hours after the surgery).

A lot of people cannot afford that kind of care. I was offered selective reduction of one twin (the donor) so that I could guarantee the life of my other one (who was stronger, not facing IUGR, ect.). In the end, I could not make that choice, and decided to do...nothing. So, happy ending, I should be crowing to the pro-life crowd what a heroine I am, right?

Wrong.

As it turns out, we were very lucky. My boys both lived, with no permanent damage to either one. Most TTTS cases as severe as ours do not turn out that way. But instead of feeling all smug, really for the longest time whenever I looked at my boys all I could think about is that I was fucking selfish and squeamish enough to KILL them *both* (or kill one and maim one) so that I wouldn't have to go against my fundie-raised sensibilities and dirty my hands. That was all about ME. Not about the babies. I'd roll rather the dice to kill both my kids than guarantee the safety of one. I don't see how I came out a heroine or smelling like a rose in that one. My boys are now 9 and to be honest, while it does not happen every day like it used to, it still haunts me. That I was willing to sacrifice one of my children to save myself discomfort and judgement from ignorant people.

People who judge other people having to make those kinds of decisions make me want to vomit. I hope to hell that they never have to face karmic retribution and find themselves in the position to KNOW what kind of hell that is. I was one of those lukewarm "oh, I suppose it's individual choice but I'd NEVER choose that!!" people before. Now I have nothing but the deepest respect and yes, admiration, for people who made different choices. I'll never know what kind of strength that took because I was a selfish wimp when I faced it. A lucky selfish wimp. Anyone who hasn't been there who thinks that they should judge those can fuck off as far as I'm concerned. When you are faced with that kind of decision, there IS no feel good choice, and there IS no happy choice. No matter what a woman chooses, she deserves to be supported and loved. No matter what you decide, you are probably going to feel pain and regret about the what-ifs for many years to come.

Welcome, and thanks for sharing your story.

[BlueChair]

I don't even need to read the blog of the woman in question who is teh ebil for selectively aborting because if Michele S. is bringing it up, then there is a 99% chance something stupid is going on. Michele S., the woman who brought this up over on MWoP, used IVF herself and had multiples, either triplets or quads, and she's a person known to have "interesting" points of view. She posts on ZsuZsu's blog like a slavering little dog, begging for attention, bashing whatever issues it is ZsuZsu wants to demean that day. She does this AFTER ZsuZsu has made it clear IVF is the devil, but she magnanimously gives Michele slack because Michele clearly loves her children and didn't selectively rid herself of them.

In ZsuZsu's recent attack of attachment parenting, Michele S. told an unlikely story of a party in which a man sat for an hour begging his child to get out of a pool while the child defied him. She said this because ZsuZsu specifically made the point that children of Attachment Parents make them look like fools (as if a woman with a minimum of three newborns could have engaged in AP to any degree to know if it works well, but never mind that) and patting ZsZsu's back with her own bizarre notions of raising children. It's uncomfortable to watch as she tries to curry favor. IIRC, she actually said kids of Attachment Parenting will end up serial killers and had to have popped an e-woody when ZsuZsu specifically said that made her laugh..

Michele S. commented about the woman selectively aborting in order to be all, "Look at me, I did this right, I am moral, not like the bitches who use IVF and then selectively abort to avoid having more children than they want, can manage or may be healthy for them! See how moral and awesome I am? See? Tell me I'm a good Christian, tell me I'm a good girl!" She seeks validation online to a degree that is embarrassing to watch. Glad to see she's spreading her emotional needs over to the think tank on MWoP. It would be horrible for her if she only had ZsuZsu 's boots to lick.

LOL Well, that's definitely one way of putting it. Those women make me stabby. It's a testament to how much I am currently avoiding tasks I should be working on that I ended up at their off topic section tonight.

[JenniferJuniper]

A good friend of mine opted not to selectively reduce when she found out there were three. (there were four originally, but three remained by the time the decision to go forward with all was made.) Today she has 13 1/2 year old triplets she's had to raise on her own because her husband couldn't handle it all and split before they were 18 months old.

She loves all of her kids dearly but would be the first to tell you that it isn't for everyone and would recommend a woman or couple think long and hard before ruling out selective reduction.

It goes on all the time with in vitro. I'd suggest anyone who is uncomfortable with the phrase get over it, because someday it may be a decision a daughter or a granddaughter or a good friend may have to make.

[CrazySister]

The risk of miscarrying after a selective reduction is less than the risk of miscarrying a triplet pregnancy.

You seem surprised at the info that embryos can split, but assert that "a lot of people don't think that far ahead" when it comes to multiple pregnancies after fertility treatment. I think it is odd that you seem so sure of what "a lot of people" going through fertility treatments know about what they're doing when you don't seem to know that much about it yourself. Octomom aside, the all of people I've known who have done fertility treatments were very much aiming for a singleton pregnancy and were aware of the risks of multiples.

I used to work with a woman in her 40's who went through IVF and was incredibly relieved with only 2 of he 3 embryo's (zygote's at that point??) took. She and her husband agreed on allowing the doctor to put (place? implant?) 3 because of her age but they really only wanted one baby. They'd decided if all three took that they'd reduce to twins but they *really* only wanted one. She knew there was a risk of miscarrying the whole pregnancy, and she was quite open about how sad she would be if she were to lose the whole pregnancy but she just didn't think they were capable of sufficiently providing emotionally for more than two. It's the only time I've ever seen the day-to-day of anyone going through infertility and all I can say after watching her go through it is: if everybody spent as much time as that couple did in weighing reduction or not or even whether they should even have kids or not, there would be a hell of a lot less child abuse!

[dawbs]

I agree that this should be in Snark.

What is bothering me is the amount of commenters that are telling her that she won't regret having triplets, that it'll all be worth it. What an interesting assumption.

Those sorts of commenters assume there's an option A (selective reduction) and Option B (have triplets) never seem to have an answer for whether or nt she might regret option C or D or E or....

(C = she tries to carry all, looses all, D = she tries to carry all, has 3 severely handicapped children, E = she tries to carry all, dies in childbirth...there are other sucky options [selective reduction results in loosing pregnancy alltogether, etc], but option B doesn't mean the outcome will be sunshine and rainbows!)

(Me personally, I decided I wasn't ever comfortable dong selective reduction...which meant that I wasn't comfortable doing a lot of fertility treatments--my doc and I discussed it when we were talking about where to start/end w/ such things. Nothing wrong w/ deciding you ARE OK w/ it--it's gotta be a sucky choice to make, no matter how you cut it; I'm glad she sounds informed.)

[FaeT]

Edit: I want to make sure I'm clear. I'm okay with people not reducing, and I'm okay with them reducing as well. Choice doesn't always mean "the choice I would make" or "the choice I like". I think making your decision based on the miscarriage risk of reduction is, however, not taking all the facts into account.

Thanks. That's what I was attempting to say.

[FaeT]

kb2

I'm not surprised at the embryo splitting at all. I'm surprised at it splitting three times. In the multiple world, identical twins aren't terribly uncommon, but identical triplets are. I personally find that fascinating.

I'm really surprised she would make this whole ordeal public. Imagine the emails she's getting. :cry: But I do applaud her for being much braver than I could ever be. That is definitely something (making it public) I would never be able to do.

[moreorlessnu]

I'm curious why she would make such personal information public, especially while she is going through such a difficult time. This must be a very difficult decision between her, her partner, and perhaps her doctors.

I don't see why she would put herself in the position of being attacked by complete strangers no matter what decision she ultimately makes. It's her right to handle the dissemination of her personal information any way she chooses to, but I don't see what the benefit to her (or her family) is.

[Maul the Koala]

Hey Michelle S, you said you read here. Shut up you sanctimonious holier than thou twat waffle. You're a moron. What this blogger is doing is her choice. You got to make your choice, let her make hers. Go lick Zsu's boots some more.

Those sorts of commenters assume there's an option A (selective reduction) and Option B (have triplets) never seem to have an answer for whether or nt she might regret option C or D or E or....

(C = she tries to carry all, looses all, D = she tries to carry all, has 3 severely handicapped children, E = she tries to carry all, dies in childbirth...there are other sucky options [selective reduction results in loosing pregnancy alltogether, etc], but option B doesn't mean the outcome will be sunshine and rainbows!)

(Me personally, I decided I wasn't ever comfortable dong selective reduction...which meant that I wasn't comfortable doing a lot of fertility treatments--my doc and I discussed it when we were talking about where to start/end w/ such things. Nothing wrong w/ deciding you ARE OK w/ it--it's gotta be a sucky choice to make, no matter how you cut it; I'm glad she sounds informed.)

Yeah. Twin to twin transfusion syndrome is nothing to mess with. And there's the potential she'll lose all three fetuses if twin to twin syndrome happens before viability. Even if it happens after viability, there's the big chance of losing one of the babies. It's more common than people think. Hell, I know people with twins who were still tube fed up until the age of 4, 5 years old because of extreme prematurity. It's not "Oooooh, look at the cute preemies!". It may be a lifetime struggle. After seeing what I've seen, I don't blame anyone one bit if they don't want to risk any of that. Unless you've been there (or observed) the whole NICU/PICU + constant hospital visits and outpatient visits, you don't realize how brutal it is. Life is more than black and white. I don't know why people are reluctant to accept the fact that people do regret having children. And shaming people into having a child because 'they won't regret it' is wrong.

[valsa]

I'm curious why she would make such personal information public, especially while she is going through such a difficult time. This must be a very difficult decision between her, her partner, and perhaps her doctors.

I don't see why she would put herself in the position of being attacked by complete strangers no matter what decision she ultimately makes. It's her right to handle the dissemination of her personal information any way she chooses to, but I don't see what the benefit to her (or her family) is.

A lot of people put painful personal information online as a way to help others who may be in their position know that they're not alone.

[CrazySister]

Yeah. Twin to twin transfusion syndrome is nothing to mess with. And there's the potential she'll lose all three fetuses if twin to twin syndrome happens before viability. Even if it happens after viability, there's the big chance of losing one of the babies. It's more common than people think. Hell, I know people with twins who were still tube fed up until the age of 4, 5 years old because of extreme prematurity. It's not "Oooooh, look at the cute preemies!". It may be a lifetime struggle. After seeing what I've seen, I don't blame anyone one bit if they don't want to risk any of that. Unless you've been there (or observed) the whole NICU/PICU + constant hospital visits and outpatient visits, you don't realize how brutal it is. Life is more than black and white. I don't know why people are reluctant to accept the fact that people do regret having children. And shaming people into having a child because 'they won't regret it' is wrong.

Yeah, I know I'm preaching to the choir, but just thought this bears repeating.

[moreorlessnu]

A lot of people put painful personal information online as a way to help others who may be in their position know that they're not alone.

Yes, I can totally see doing that after the fact. But, to make such personal information/decisions public while she is going through a difficult time may make the whole experience more difficult for her. Sure, some people will provide support, but it must be an added burden to deal with those who oppose her decision when she is in the process of making such important decisions.

[Minerva]

Yes, I can totally see doing that after the fact. But, to make such personal information/decisions public while she is going through a difficult time may make the whole experience more difficult for her. Sure, some people will provide support, but it must be an added burden to deal with those who oppose her decision when she is in the process of making such important decisions.

Yes, but she knew she'd get hate mail and be pressured not to reduce when she decided to do this. I think she's one of those people who find blogging their struggles while they happen therapeutic, but I also think she's chosen to make a sacrifice in order to help others in her situation by live-blogging as opposed to relaying it all from memory later. Towards the beginning of her journey, when only a few people read her blog, she asked that those readers who knew her in person keep it a secret for now so that they could make a decision without her friends and family weighing in. Sounds like she knows what she's doing on all fronts.

[desertvixen]

People who judge other people having to make those kinds of decisions make me want to vomit. I hope to hell that they never have to face karmic retribution and find themselves in the position to KNOW what kind of hell that is. I was one of those lukewarm "oh, I suppose it's individual choice but I'd NEVER choose that!!" people before. Now I have nothing but the deepest respect and yes, admiration, for people who made different choices. I'll never know what kind of strength that took because I was a selfish wimp when I faced it. A lucky selfish wimp. Anyone who hasn't been there who thinks that they should judge those can fuck off as far as I'm concerned. When you are faced with that kind of decision, there IS no feel good choice, and there IS no happy choice. No matter what a woman chooses, she deserves to be supported and loved. No matter what you decide, you are probably going to feel pain and regret about the what-ifs for many years to come.

Welcome, and thank you for sharing. I think one of the things about FJ that is awesome is that we have people who have made the hard decisions and are willing to share their stories.

I agree that as a woman making a choice related to reproduction, you're pretty much doomed to having someone judge you negatively.

[OkToBeTakei]

Yes, but she knew she'd get hate mail and be pressured not to reduce when she decided to do this. I think she's one of those people who find blogging their struggles while they happen therapeutic, but I also think she's chosen to make a sacrifice in order to help others in her situation by live-blogging as opposed to relaying it all from memory later. Towards the beginning of her journey, when only a few people read her blog, she asked that those readers who knew her in person keep it a secret for now so that they could make a decision without her friends and family weighing in. Sounds like she knows what she's doing on all fronts.

I think I understand that, she is exceptionally well informed to the point of appearing clinical. I do get the impression as a previous poster said she is expressing her decision in such a way as to seem unemotional. I think she is far from that. The fact that it has brought forth both negative, positive and personal emotive response here and on the other place (not tempted to look) Does support what you are saying. If her reasons is to open the discussion for others, she has succeeded. I wonder if that was her intention?

[Minerva]

I think I understand that, she is exceptionally well informed to the point of appearing clinical. I do get the impression as a previous poster said she is expressing her decision in such a way as to seem unemotional. I think she is far from that. The fact that it has brought forth both negative, positive and personal emotive response here and on the other place (not tempted to look) Does support what you are saying. If her reasons is to open the discussion for others, she has succeeded. I wonder if that was her intention?

She has said she's doing it so that others making the same decision as she will have a resource to turn to, as there are so few at the moment. I get the feeling she considers the controversy it generates a necessary unpleasantness.

[OkToBeTakei]

She has said she's doing it so that others making the same decision as she will have a resource to turn to, as there are so few at the moment. I get the feeling she considers the controversy it generates a necessary unpleasantness.

In that case fair play to her. I think she is very brave. She certainly made me think.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

I think any woman putting a human face on abortion and countering the "Recreational Abortionist" stereotype is heroic.

Don't forget, this is another one of those infrequent but real situations where "personhood" laws, if passed, can have enormously devestating consequences.

[kb2]

kb2

I'm not surprised at the embryo splitting at all. I'm surprised at it splitting three times. In the multiple world, identical twins aren't terribly uncommon, but identical triplets are. I personally find that fascinating.

That's cool that you're interested, but I don't see how you can be all, "Oh that's an interesting fact about fertility treatments that I didn't know!" and then be all, "A lot of people seeking fertility treatments are woefully unaware of these very important facts about it that I know." It seems wrong to judge people seeking fertility treatments for not planning ahead for multiples when you yourself aren't fully informed on how multiples happen. For the most part, people aren't running around making frivolous decisions about how many eggs to transfer, they're just making hard decisions that sometimes work out in their favor and sometimes don't.

[FaeT]

That's cool that you're interested, but I don't see how you can be all, "Oh that's an interesting fact about fertility treatments that I didn't know!" and then be all, "A lot of people seeking fertility treatments are woefully unaware of these very important facts about it that I know." It seems wrong to judge people seeking fertility treatments for not planning ahead for multiples when you yourself aren't fully informed on how multiples happen. For the most part, people aren't running around making frivolous decisions about how many eggs to transfer, they're just making hard decisions that sometimes work out in their favor and sometimes don't.

It's interesting yes, but it's something I did know. I didn't know it about this particular case though. I'm not trying to be judgmental. I know I come across that way and I apologize. I find high order multiples fascinating in a strange and odd way and I do find it fascinating that an embryo split multiple times. It's just not something that happens that often. Anyhow, I'm not trying to be judgmental. So I'll just drop it.

[Maul the Koala]

It can always happen with higher order multiples. The Dionne quintuplets were identical.

[OkToBeTakei]

I think any woman putting a human face on abortion and countering the "Recreational Abortionist" stereotype is heroic.

Don't forget, this is another one of those infrequent but real situations where "personhood" laws, if passed, can have enormously devestating consequences.

THIS and this. Make no apologies. Use whatever words you please.

How sad and very insightful that this woman knew not to be 'googleable' One day maybe...

[pomology]

I stumbled onto a blog about quintuplets awhile ago and this is what the father had to say on the subject of selective reduction. www.wilkinsonquints.org/blog/2007_03_01_archive.html

I think that even though they're probably pro-life (devout Mormons) and chose to keep all the babies, I think it's an interesting perspective on selective reduction. It's shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that anybody who wants to reduce a pregnancy has a lot of serious, important things to consider. Honestly, I get the impression that this couple wouldn't judge another couple for reducing their high order multiples pregnancy, but it's possible that I'm way off base.

[dawbs]

I stumbled onto a blog about quintuplets awhile ago and this is what the father had to say on the subject of selective reduction. http://www.wilkinsonquints.org/blog/200 ... chive.html

I think that even though they're probably pro-life (devout Mormons) and chose to keep all the babies, I think it's an interesting perspective on selective reduction. It's shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that anybody who wants to reduce a pregnancy has a lot of serious, important things to consider. Honestly, I get the impression that this couple wouldn't judge another couple for reducing their high order multiples pregnancy, but it's possible that I'm way off base.

It may be my cynicism showing through, but I didn't see him seriously looking at the 'other stuff'--he considers trasportation/5 infant seats and risk to his wife...but he mkes no mention of the rest of it--handicapped kids, loosing the pregnancy, loosing one or more baby at delivery, severe handicaps.

And the fact that it was in 'discussion' with a church muckity-muck that his wife came to the conclusion to keep them all doesn't give me the warm fuzzies at ALL--quite the opposite.