Manly Men Are Mature

[debrand]

familyreformation.wordpress.com/2010/02/27/bill-potter-on-christian-maturity/

 

 

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Maturity is frowned upon – men are kept in adolescence, men are feminized, boys are encouraged to stay boys – pickup trucks are listed as “big boy toys†– Super Bowl ads displayed men as overindulged idiots or those who are weak and stupid, and men just chuckled at the commercials

 

The media stereotypes everyone. It is offensive and annoying but it is difficult to pretend that the stereotyping only happens to men. Women are often depicted as either bossy or sex objects. Don't get me started on racial stereotypes.

 

No one outside of the media and movies want men to remain in perpetual adolescence.

 

 

Quote

Many men in the mid 30’s and 40’s are still boys – playing video games after work, or possibly at work

 

I like video games- a lot. Video games are interactive movies in which you are the main character or hero. Some of the best have complex story lines that depict choices that are neither black or white.

 

The rest of the article has to do with maturity. Christians should NEVER compromise with the world. The Afghanistan word for compromise is surrender so there you go, never compromise. Yep, that is a very mature sentiment.

 

He also discusses the Boer War but I am embarrassingly unfamiliar with the details of that war. However, I don't trust Bill Potter's version of anything historical.

[FloraKitty35]

familyreformation.wordpress.com/2010/02/27/bill-potter-on-christian-maturity/

The media stereotypes everyone. It is offensive and annoying but it is difficult to pretend that the stereotyping only happens to men. Women are often depicted as either bossy or sex objects. Don't get me started on racial stereotypes.

No one outside of the media and movies want men to remain in perpetual adolescence.

I like video games- a lot. Video games are interactive movies in which you are the main character or hero. Some of the best have complex story lines that depict choices that are neither black or white.

The rest of the article has to do with maturity. Christians should NEVER compromise with the world. The Afghanistan word for compromise is surrender so there you go, never compromise. Yep, that is a very mature sentiment. :roll:

He also discusses the Boer War but I am embarrassingly unfamiliar with the details of that war. However, I don't trust Bill Potter's version of anything historical.

Here is some info on the Boer War.

The Boer Wars were two wars fought during 1880–1881 and 1899–1902 by the British Empire against the Dutch settlers of two independent Boer republics, the Orange Free State and the Transvaal Republic (present day South Africa). The Boer's were Dutch farmers. The second Boer War is more famous than the first, because, the British put the Boer women & children in concentration camps and many of them died from disease & starvation.

[JesusFightClub]

I don't believe for a minute he learnt that compromise = surrender in Pashtun from his mate the mujahideen. If you learn a little of someone's language you learn stuff like nouns ("man"/woman"" etc) and things like "I go/I went" and "I like this", not great big huge fancy concept words.

It might be the case he's right about compromise and surrender, but in that case I really doubt it's how he found out. A minor point, granted :mrgreen:

[DaffyDill]

Love to be a fly on the wall* should he ever visit the Arndt family :D What would he think of them, and if he spouted his maturity lines, what would they think of him? Would either side see any irony or have an epiphany? Or would there just be *crickets chirping* (Or ducks quacking, as the case may be...)

*(mind you, love to be a fly in the wall often in that household to try to understand....why???)

[Vex]

Oh FFS. They're bitching about stereotypes while trumpeting the 'video games are for manchildren' stereotype.

Playing video games after work is a perfectly acceptable way of relaxing. What the fuck business of theirs is it what men do with their downtime? How are video games any less mature than movies or sports? Kids enjoy those things too.

These days video games are visual masterpieces. Many have incredibly sophisticated and compelling storylines. I've never been interested in Grand Theft Auto, but because I thought the graphics were gorgeous I watched a walkthrough and I was sold on the game solely based on the fantastic characters and compelling plot.

It's also irritating that female gamers aren't seen as immature for playing games (at least, nobody has ever leveled criticism of my maturity based on my gaming at me), but males are. Then again, the people saying male gamers are immature are probably ignorant of the fact female gamers exist at all.

Can I also just add that video games are not limited to the games on PCs and gaming consoles. How many millions of people play Angry Birds or whatever on their iphones or play those (apparently ridiculously) addictive Facebook games? That's gaming too and people don't bitch about how that's immature. It seems limited to console/PC gamers.

[salex]

Oh FFS. They're bitching about stereotypes while trumpeting the 'video games are for manchildren' stereotype.

Playing video games after work is a perfectly acceptable way of relaxing. What the fuck business of theirs is it what men do with their downtime? How are video games any less mature than movies or sports? Kids enjoy those things too.

These days video games are visual masterpieces. Many have incredibly sophisticated and compelling storylines. I've never been interested in Grand Theft Auto, but because I thought the graphics were gorgeous I watched a walkthrough and I was sold on the game solely based on the fantastic characters and compelling plot.

It's also irritating that female gamers aren't seen as immature for playing games (at least, nobody has ever leveled criticism of my maturity based on my gaming at me), but males are. Then again, the people saying male gamers are immature are probably ignorant of the fact female gamers exist at all.

Can I also just add that video games are not limited to the games on PCs and gaming consoles. How many millions of people play Angry Birds or whatever on their iphones or play those (apparently ridiculously) addictive Facebook games? That's gaming too and people don't bitch about how that's immature. It seems limited to console/PC gamers.

My thought is that the men and women I know of all ages seem to be mostly pulled together and capable. Yes, there are a few who are on their 4th marriage, but most get their life figured out long before that. And if they play video games (I played a lot of stupid puzzle and scrabble games the last 3 days while I've been sick), unless it gets in the way of what they need/want to do otherwise.. it is just another form of recreation. People have complained about video games, television, radio, movies, novels and teaching their children to play the piano as time wasting extravagences.... so, a big "whatever" to that.

The men I know are not feminine or emasculated, so I don't get what he's talking about. If he is basing this on pop culture (TV Series?) well-- no real people are like the television characters. I feel like a lot of these writers have to set up little straw men to light with a match or their have no fire at all in their writing.

[latraviata]

Here is some info on the Boer War.

The Boer Wars were two wars fought during 1880–1881 and 1899–1902 by the British Empire against the Dutch settlers of two independent Boer republics, the Orange Free State and the Transvaal Republic (present day South Africa). The Boer's were Dutch farmers. The second Boer War is more famous than the first, because, the British put the Boer women & children in concentration camps and many of them died from disease & starvation.

And that is the reason that the word Boer(s) has no negative connotation in Dutch.

[thoughtful]

I'm reading that, thinking of the things Peter Bradrick has posted lately, and Doug Phillips, and JimBob and Josh Duggar, and David Waller, etc.

Except for scary dudes like Botkin, Maxwell and Pearl, it strikes me that a lot of these fundy men are very childlike, even babyish -- blithely worshipping and following a leader, and/or grabbing at everything they want without thought of others. That, to me, is more childish than playing games.

As salex said, most of us know that TV characters are often nothing like real people. Sitcoms have almost always depended on exaggerated or flawed types to get to their humor. In fact, that's one of the reasons a lot of them lose me -- watching various types of exaggerated assholes being assholey, or two stereotypically divergent types being oh, so different from one another, just to get to an obvious punch line, doesn't cut it for me.

The set-up has often included dopey, big-baby-boy men, and it's generally a type that annoys me. There have been exceptions, like The Dick van Dyke show. :D

[NoneandDoneinCali]

Oh please. The gender dichotomy presented in advertising is insulting to pretty much everyone. Yes, the men are shown to be incompetent with any sort of homemaking or childcare - setting fires in the kitchen, unable to make so much as a sandwich, sweeping dirt behind the couch, completely inept as parents. By the same token, women are shown doing all of the cleaning (and really CARING about having spotless grout, like it's some huge blow to their womanhood if a tiny mark exists), being complete control-freaks, and manipulating their husbands. I think most people are smart enough to know that this is a very narrow (and annoying) view of gender differences. Yet the fundamentalist movement seems to prize these rigid boundaries as ideal. So what was his problem again?? I mean, men aren't supposed to have to lift a finger at home anyways, right?

[Rescinded and Mended]

Oh FFS. They're bitching about stereotypes while trumpeting the 'video games are for manchildren' stereotype.

Playing video games after work is a perfectly acceptable way of relaxing. What the fuck business of theirs is it what men do with their downtime? How are video games any less mature than movies or sports? Kids enjoy those things too.

These days video games are visual masterpieces. Many have incredibly sophisticated and compelling storylines. I've never been interested in Grand Theft Auto, but because I thought the graphics were gorgeous I watched a walkthrough and I was sold on the game solely based on the fantastic characters and compelling plot.

It's also irritating that female gamers aren't seen as immature for playing games (at least, nobody has ever leveled criticism of my maturity based on my gaming at me), but males are. Then again, the people saying male gamers are immature are probably ignorant of the fact female gamers exist at all.

Can I also just add that video games are not limited to the games on PCs and gaming consoles. How many millions of people play Angry Birds or whatever on their iphones or play those (apparently ridiculously) addictive Facebook games? That's gaming too and people don't bitch about how that's immature. It seems limited to console/PC gamers.

Exactly all of this in its entirety.

I make absolutely no apologies for the fact that I am an adult gamer who also happens to be a wife and mother. In my downtime, I enjoy playing video games of all genres. As you stated, games are better now than they ever have been, and as hobbies go, video gaming can be reasonably cheap if you wait to buy games and consoles after they get a bit older (Amazon and Ebay, I love you and your prices).

I have also seen the double standard of gaming used primarily against men. Pretty much every man I know who games is successful and has a good job, but most of them have still been criticized at some point for gaming as a hobby. On the other hand, that's never happened to me. I play co-op with my son, and he, his friends and most of my inner circle all think that's pretty cool.

And Vex, your observation about casual gamers is spot-on. I once read an interview written by the editor of Game Informer where he actually complained about the fact that there were so many casual gamers. He stated he didn't think they were "hardcore" enough and shouldn't consider themselves gamers as such because they played casual games like Angry Birds and Farmville. This made me angry because I figured, as long as these people are enjoying gaming on some level, it will be more accepted by everyone as a hobby overall, so where's the harm?

[hoipolloi]

And here's the oh-so-mature manly speaker, Bill Potter, with his favorite dress-up buddy, Doug Phillips Is A Tool:

[snarkyjan]

And here's the oh-so-mature manly speaker, Bill Potter, with his favorite dress-up buddy, Doug Phillips Is A Tool:

Any veteran, especially those who served in World War II, would find these two poseurs parading around like this far more offensive than confessing to a fondness for video gaming.

[Ari]

Yes, the Afghans are definitely who we want to be learning from when it comes to battle-related concepts. Because clearly it's worked out so well for them.

[Sola]

And here's the oh-so-mature manly speaker, Bill Potter, with his favorite dress-up buddy, Doug Phillips Is A Tool:

Reminds me of a scene from Dad's Army...

[OkToBeTakei]

Reminds me of a scene from Dad's Army...

:lol:

[debrand]

A gamer can buy a war game and be the hero in a WWW II campaign. Doug dresses up and pretends to be a hero in a WWW II campaign. What is the difference? Why is it better and more mature to dress in the outfit from another era than to play a video game about being a soldier from another era? I don't see the difference.

[salex]

The majority of the men described in the royal families seem immature to me, and I think their belief system and lifestyle contributes to it.

1) By keeping their children at home for school and church, the kids are kept from developing same age relationships under non parental guidance (ie, limited). No, school is not always fun. There are conflicts between students, even bullying. But getting to know other people who don't share you belief system, standing on your own creating relationships with teachers, other students, etc.... including getting along with people you don't like, learning to resolve conflict on your own and dealing with classmates who are not your siblings is a different sort of learning than mom grading your paper and the occasional disagreement with your sister.

2) Dad and mom seem very hands on. When a 13 year old decides to build a house by 18-- that is not a wholly self defined idea, generally. While I know all parents direct their children, having your son build a house on land you give him on your property is not expanding his options, it is narrowing them. He is not likely ever going to be able to sell that house (perhaps hand it off to a sibling) since it is in the "family compound." It limits his gifts for years to storm windows, sinks and toilets, instead of anything that might be of interest to him in his teen years, when he might be exploring where his interests lie. Building and owning a house on the family compound defines his boundaries very early--they don't seem to include moving out of state for a career that isn't readily available near Dad's house. Fewer options means fewer chances to make one's own decisions--and more obedience to dad and mom--which is more or less the opposite of maturity and independence.

3) No dating. Dad is heavily involved in finding the son's mate, based often on some godliness rules, but taking into account dad's pride in who he can snag for sonny vs who might be a good fit . No dating means not getting to meet different kinds of women\\. Instead, women are basically sold as interchangeable "good Christian women" whose personality is less important than their obedience to dogma.

4) The young men are not likely sent to college. Career paths are designed perhaps in part taking skills and interests into play (as long as these skills and interests don't require college degree). Joining the family business of the patriarch means always being a prince, never quite a king in the business. Great for dad, not so wonderful for many sons, as far as becoming more mature. We've also seen a few starting businesses... not sure with what money (possibly what would have been a college fund?) the MLM's are destined to be iffy at best, I fear, but I know people who do quite well with lawn services, windshield repair, etc. However, if these families are in small towns, there will be limit to how many of these occur. And, if there are 7-12 sons, can any family business absorb them all and support, instead of one family with 10 kids, 8 families with the 7 sons having 10 kids each? WIll the Princes begin to turn on one another? How much kowtowing to the patriarch does it take for these sons to be more mature than the ordinary American male?

5) The fact that when a young man (older boy) marries a woman woman whose father worked with his father and him to develop a courtship, and she and he are told that he is in charge, she is to obey, take care of him, do what he says, pray if she disagrees, etc, this would seem to move maturity backwards for him --since he may not need to or choose to develop interpersonal relationships (I am thinking of M. Pearl here... was anything in his self description of his honeymoon how an adult male who liked women in general or his wife, specifically, would act?) The role the patriarchal male is told they are to assume, ruling their home as patriarch to be obeyed at all costs and in all things while abdicating the tedious/handson work to their spouse and children seems to me to reduce their maturity level to that of spoiled 5 year old. Oh, the one issue? No matter how miserable, they can't leave the church or their wives. If staying in a marriage is proof of maturity, then that is a maturity forced upon them.

How any of this is supposed to make these men more mature than others in our culture baffles me.

[Mama Mia]

Oh please. The gender dichotomy presented in advertising is insulting to pretty much everyone. Yes, the men are shown to be incompetent with any sort of homemaking or childcare - setting fires in the kitchen, unable to make so much as a sandwich, sweeping dirt behind the couch, completely inept as parents. By the same token, women are shown doing all of the cleaning (and really CARING about having spotless grout, like it's some huge blow to their womanhood if a tiny mark exists), being complete control-freaks, and manipulating their husbands. I think most people are smart enough to know that this is a very narrow (and annoying) view of gender differences. Yet the fundamentalist movement seems to prize these rigid boundaries as ideal. So what was his problem again?? I mean, men aren't supposed to have to lift a finger at home anyways, right?

I've actually noticed that changing quite a bit over the last few years. I've noticed many commercials that feature men cleaning and caring for children. Without the hopeless / helpless spin. I have a hunch it's due to the economy leading more men to be the primary caretakers.

[thoughtful]

I've actually noticed that changing quite a bit over the last few years. I've noticed many commercials that feature men cleaning and caring for children. Without the hopeless / helpless spin. I have a hunch it's due to the economy leading more men to be the primary caretakers.

I think it comes and goes in waves, and it varies by product. Off the top of my head, I've noticed the "that's my Tide ads" showing lots of men doing laundry competently and in an everyday manner.

Clorox seems locked into women doing it all and being the only ones who care.

[Vex]

Rescinded and Mended, people would probably consider me a pretty dedicated gamer even though I don't think of myself that way. I currently have a PS3, an Xbox 360, a Wii and a 3DS. I have gamer friends who I play co-op with. I play rpgs and I have several rpgs where I have logged in literally hundreds of hours of gameplay (over the course of years or multiple playthroughs). However, I'm not a trophy/achievement collector or really even a completionist. Of my 30 or so PS3 games I've earned exactly one platinum trophy. 'Non-gamers' think I'm a pretty hardcore gamer even though actual gamers would disagree. I sometimes go weeks, even months without playing anything.

Yet I know so many so-called 'causal gamers' who have literally logged more hours and money building up their Cityville games than I have on all three consoles combined over several months. A lot of people criticise 'gamers' from their facebooks and then log in to play more Farmville.

I don't really get much heat as a female gamer even though the games I play tend to be especially male-dominated (I play a lot of survival horror). Guys on the other hand tend to be excoriated for gaming because consoles are seen as such a waste of time and money and as something antisocial and immature. Some of my closest friends are guys I've met through gaming, guys who have jobs or go to university and use gaming to unwind.

It really angers me that people give them a hard time, especially people who actually spend more time gaming on their phones or browsers than my friends do on their consoles.

[thoughtful]

Another slant on this -- for better or worse, modern life includes things that ancient life didn't.

From indoor plumbing to not needing to build our own homes to buying food rather than hunting and growing it, it's here to stay.

So, we have leisure time that most people didn't have in the past. Gaming is no more childish or irresponsible a way to spend it than fishing, reading, praying or playing rugby.

Some of the fundies romanticize whatever part of Olden Times they like, and ignore the rest. They also cherry pick what they use from modern life. I don't see most of them condemning cars, toilets or mass-printed Bibles.

As Salex pointed out so well, their system has parents limiting a boy's life rigidly. It's as if they are pretending college, modern leisure choices, modern professions, and a million other things most of us accept, don't even exist, then claiming that their particular choices are inherently more noble, manly and mature. :roll:

[Palimpsest]

Reminds me of a scene from Dad's Army...

Me too!

Who do you think you are kidding Mr. Satan?

If you think we're on the run,

We are the boys who will stop your little game.

We are the boys who will make you think again.

'Cus who do you think you are kidding Mr. Satan?

If you think Vision Forum's done?

I see Captain Mainwaring and Sergeant Wilson. I vote for Bradrick! as Private Pike. :lol: