Fundie spirit crushing - when & how does it begin?

[fundyfunland]

The topic focusing on who people feel most sorry for in the Duggar & Bates families, has got me thinking. A lot of the comments seem to focus on crushing the spirit of Joyanna, Josiah, Hannie, etc.

This question is mostly aimed at ex-ATI/VF or ex-fundies of any sort but anyone feel free to answer. When & how does the spirit destruction really begin? Adolescence? Pre-puberty? Earlier? And how? What tactics do these fundie families use to crush these precious children's souls? Is it a gradual process, or do they really ramp up forced kool-aid drinking at certain stages? Personal examples would be helpful, or just your own speculations. K thx :D

[lilith]

This is all speculation, based mainly on the Duggars, but.....

I'd say it starts from birth (teaching a newborn that it can't control it's environment by not feeding on demand, enforcing bedtimes etc) and babyhood (blanket training), but that they ramp it up at certain stages.

There seems to be a push to make them conform to gender roles and project a happy happy happy image in the late preschool years (Hannie and Jackson most recently, separating them and getting Jackson to "work" with the boys while Hannie plays with baby dolls at home).

Then another push in adolescence, I guess when all kids start to question and rebel and sexuality starts rearing it's head. The Duggars send their kids to ATI retreats in their mid teens and seem to push them into even more narrow gender roles. Some of the boys have sported shaved heads at this age, which is apparently part of a Gothard training and shaming seminar. Individuality seems to be discouraged even more, things like Josiah being a bit flamboyant and Joyanna being a tomboy are no longer accepted.

Then the last push at 17 or 18, to make sure they stay in the flock. The brainwashing about purity and waiting for prince charming for the girls and pouring all your energy into having your own business and the financial stability to go courting for the guys. This is the point when any illusions they have been allowed to foster about college etc are finally killed and they settle for college minus or manual labour, thus limiting their future options and the possibility they will be exposed to outside ideas. They are then told over and over that they have "chosen" the best and only godly way and their smugness really develops.

[fundyfunland]

Nice recap _lilith. I think you're probably right. It comes in waves with specific goals to attain in each age group. I'd be interested in hearing from some ex-fundies, specific examples about that they can remember, when they noticed they were being pushed into the next phase of The System. Were they told specifically "you're a girl. You should be playing with dolls now....or you'll go to hell", or was it more subliminal and gradual.

[Mela99]

There seems to be a push to make them conform to gender roles and project a happy happy happy image in the late preschool years (Hannie and Jackson most recently, separating them and getting Jackson to "work" with the boys while Hannie plays with baby dolls at home).

That's really depressing. They can't keep playing together? I honestly wonder what they think will happen if they do.

But I agree. From birth. Mullet says in the book as soon as potty training starts she preaches obedience to parents and God.

[lilith]

That's really depressing. They can't keep playing together? I honestly wonder what they think will happen if they do.

But I agree. From birth. Mullet says in the book as soon as potty training starts she preaches obedience to parents and God.

She waits til potty training? Is she trying to foster a rebellious ungodly spirit? I thought blanket training needed to start as soon as the tot could support it's own head enough to lay on its front on a blanket. The Pearls would not approve.....

[margiebargie]

This discussion made me think of Maria Montessori for some reason. Polar opposite philosophy I guess.

How can we speak of Democracy or Freedom when from the very beginning of life we mould the child to undergo tyranny, to obey a dictator? How can we expect democracy when we have reared slaves? Real freedom begins at the beginning of life, not at the adult stage. These people who have been diminished in their powers, made short-sighted, devitalized by mental fatigue, whose bodies have become distorted, whose wills have been broken by elders who say: “your will must disappear and mine prevail!â€â€”how can we expect them, when school-life is finished, to accept and use the rights of freedom? [Maria Montessori, Education for a New World, translator unknown]

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

This discussion made me think of Maria Montessori for some reason. Polar opposite philosophy I guess.

Love this.

[latraviata]

The topic focusing on who people feel most sorry for in the Duggar & Bates families, has got me thinking. A lot of the comments seem to focus on crushing the spirit of Joyanna, Josiah, Hannie, etc.

This question is mostly aimed at ex-ATI/VF or ex-fundies of any sort but anyone feel free to answer. When & how does the spirit destruction really begin? Adolescence? Pre-puberty? Earlier? And how? What tactics do these fundie families use to crush these precious children's souls? Is it a gradual process, or do they really ramp up forced kool-aid drinking at certain stages? Personal examples would be helpful, or just your own speculations. K thx :D

'To train up a child' by Michael Pearl, that gives you the necessary insight.

http://www.amazon.com/To-Train-Up-A-Child/dp/1892112000

[holothuroidea]

People have already said it but I will reiterate, it begins at birth.

Scheduled feeding and sleeping for newborns, the idea that "If he is old enough to pitch a fit, he is old enough to be spanked." The Pearls give instructions for beating (they call it switching, or spanking, or whatever) infants of any age until their cries turn into a submissive wheeze and they "no longer have breath to defy you."

Of course, the abuse continues well into adulthood and takes different forms at different ages, but it starts at birth.

The attitude they have towards children is abhorrent, they never for a moment consider that they are people, they treat them worse than animals bound for slaughter.

[margiebargie]

People have already said it but I will reiterate, it begins at birth.

Scheduled feeding and sleeping for newborns, the idea that "If he is old enough to pitch a fit, he is old enough to be spanked." The Pearls beating (they call it switching, or spanking, or whatever) infants of any age until their cries turn into a submissive wheeze and they "no longer have breath to defy you."

Of course, the abuse continues well into adulthood and takes different forms at different ages, but it starts at birth.

The attitude they have towards children is abhorrent, they never for a moment consider that they are people, they treat them worse than animals bound for slaughter.

Right. And it's all done for the selfish reasons of the "parents". They want quiet, obediant kids for their own damn comfort and convenience. They want them fearful and docile so they can show them off in public. "Look how well-behaved they are!" They want them brainwashed and indoctrinated so they will live out the parents' foolish superstitions.

Yuck. It just makes me so mad. When fundies talk about their "child training" I always think of my own kid. She's well-behaved but she's still got personality and spark and a mind of her own. I wouldn't have it any other way. As parents, her father and I want her to develop her own interests and ways of thinking. Isn't that what parents are supposed to do? It kills me to think how these kids are being treated.

[delilahdog11]

I imagine that much of the spirit crushing happens because most of these women have entirely too many kids and not enough help or support from their husbands, family, or friends. I imagine that much of the training is out of desperation in order to have some control over the chaos. Not that I agree with that piss poor excuse.

It also seems that most of these fundie families are only concerned with how they appear on the outside. Look at my perfect children. Look at how godly I am. I am following God's plan to open my womb to him and he has blessed me with perfectly behaved blessing. Don't you want to have the same? I read some of the reviews written on Amazon about the Pearls' book. Training up a child. Many of the people who turned to the book did so because they saw another woman and were envious of how well behaved her children were. It is if children are being used to advertise how wonderful life can be if you just become a fundie.

There are days when I wish my two year old would just not throw a tantrum. Most of the time when I need to run errands, but I couldn't imagine hitting him. As it would only make the tantrum last longer. I found that letting him roll around the floor and not interacting with him. Helps a great deal. And/or focusing his attention elsewhere. I see why they advise hitting until the crying stops. A child in the midst of tantrum will only cry more if struck, but if you wear them

out with continual hitting then eventually they will stop. Louis CK has a great stand up routine about how fucked a up a person must be to hit a child.

I imagine that spirit crushing never stops once the child is born. As it seems that most fundie parents don't care about the child's individual nature, but more so that they reflect the parents dedication to raising the child up under godly principles.

[Olive Plant]

As soon as the baby can do anything more than lie still. I recently overheard one obviously-fundie woman describing how her baby was "very strong willed" because she was fussy and that "she'd need a lot of training" in order to be presented to polite society. The infant was also supposedly arrogant because she "looked at other people with disdain." I was not part of this conversation but I did overhear someone replying that the baby might not be comfortable or have something wrong otherwise if she was constantly fussy.

This baby was three months old. That's right. Three MONTHS old. Looking back, I'm sorry I didn't butt in and try to convince this woman more strongly that her viewpoint was insane. But she did listen to the other person detailing some medical reasons (colic, anyone?) the baby could be unhappy. I guess that's a good sign. I can only hope, since the thought that this poor child will be "trained" out of her "strong-willed arrogance" at three months old is heartbreaking. Seriously, the level of child-development ignorance most fundies seem to have is breathtaking.

[Mountain Girl]

If he is old enough to pitch a fit, he is old enough to be spanked.

It's concerning when an infant doesn't "pitch a fit". It's called communication. And how exactly does an infant look disdainful? It's probably normal squishy baby expressions. Ugh, somebody bring a baby over so I can hug it and coo at it :cry:

[latraviata]

People have already said it but I will reiterate, it begins at birth.

Scheduled feeding and sleeping for newborns, the idea that "If he is old enough to pitch a fit, he is old enough to be spanked." The Pearls give instructions for beating (they call it switching, or spanking, or whatever) infants of any age until their cries turn into a submissive wheeze and they "no longer have breath to defy you."

Of course, the abuse continues well into adulthood and takes different forms at different ages, but it starts at birth.

The attitude they have towards children is abhorrent, they never for a moment consider that they are people, they treat them worse than animals bound for slaughter.

That is excactly my point. The misery starts at birth.

[holothuroidea]

I just cannot imagine the kind of fucked-up you'd have to be to beat a hungry, crying newborn with a stick until he wheezes and whimpers.

People like that should be in prison, they shouldn't have contact with the rest of the world.

[holothuroidea]

It's concerning when an infant doesn't "pitch a fit". It's called communication. And how exactly does an infant look disdainful? It's probably normal squishy baby expressions. Ugh, somebody bring a baby over so I can hug it and coo at it :cry:

The Pearl's advocate withholding food from a crying infant until they "act sweetly." This combined with exclusive breast feeding is a recipe for disaster. Their knowledge of what is and is not physiologically and emotionally appropriate for babies is non-existent, and that they claim to be experts is very dangerous. Children have died, they have been beaten and neglected to the point of serious psychological and physical damage.

I just... I can't even talk about it anymore. :cry: :evil: :cry: :evil:

[debrand]

Some mothers practice blanket training. They place their infant on a blanket and purposely place things out of their reach. If the child crawls off the blanket, he or she is swatted. Eventually, the infants learn to remain on the blanket.

In their book, To Train Up A Child, the Pearls describe a 'training' session with their young children. While holding a switch, the parent barked orders at the kids. "Stand!" "Sit!" "Touch the knob!" "Don't touch the door knob!" Their children were expected not only to obey instantly but to do so with a smile. Any hesitation was punished with a swat. The Pearls claimed this was fun for their children.

[latraviata]

I just cannot imagine the kind of fucked-up you'd have to be to beat a hungry, crying newborn with a stick until he wheezes and whimpers.

People like that should be in prison, they shouldn't have contact with the rest of the world.

Not as a professional (no, no credentials this time) but as a mother, I can't imagine treating your own child like that. I personally had a hard time to come up with some sort of punishment when they were older, I totally missed the inventiveness for it. When I did something like sending them to their room, I took them out after 3 minutes, feeling sorry for them.

Spanking babies or pulling their hair, that must feel wrong and against natural maternal feelings. Spanking older children with a plumbing line or wooden object, to break their will, what is the point of that?

The art of child rearing is to teach and guide them how to adept to society or life without losing their autonomy.

But, little do I know.....

[NjoyingNsanity]

These people just make me sick, as a mother of five whose youngest is just three months old it makes me cringe to think of anyone spanking a baby that little for crying. I could never hit her for communicating in the only way she can that she's hungry, needs a change or burp, or just needs some attention. Babies that young are incapable of being manipulative or disdainful they simply need to have their basic needs met promptly so that they know their world is a safe loving place. That's a parents true job with one that little not to cruelly force them into making your job as a parent easier.

I have five ranging in ages for three months to sixteen, and no my kids don't always behave, half the time at least one of them is driving me a little crazy still I'd rather them be happy, normal, well adjusted hellions with their own personalities than little pychologically damaged robots.

[0 kids n not countin]

Kristi from Thimble Thoughts just posted today regarding child rearing and seems the crushing the spirit mentality is thrust on the kids early in life:

I thought of an illustration involving a friend of mine. She is a WONDERFUL mother. She has the most beautiful little girl, who has the sweetest disposition. But that sweet little girl decided to pitch a fit in the vehicle one day, while their family was traveling, and smacked her mother. Not playfully (which is still not a good idea to encourage, btw), but in anger. Now, she's still a baby, barely walking, I think, and like I said, has the SWEETEST little personality you'll ever find on a child. But she is still flesh and bone and her heart is black with sin until she gives it to Christ one day. I had to give a shout out to the mom for spanking her little legs. For a moment, it was a battle of wills between mom and daughter. But you know what? That little angry daughter's will was broken, mom was back in charge, and a happy little girl made it to her destination. A little teary-eyed, no doubt, but with a bright and beautiful smile. Loving our children and training them to do what is right begins from the moment we hold them in our arms for the very first time.

[latraviata]

Kristi from Thimble Thoughts just posted today regarding child rearing and seems the crushing the spirit mentality is thrust on the kids early in life:

Oh dear...

[Mela99]

As soon as the baby can do anything more than lie still. I recently overheard one obviously-fundie woman describing how her baby was "very strong willed" because she was fussy and that "she'd need a lot of training" in order to be presented to polite society. The infant was also supposedly arrogant because she "looked at other people with disdain." I was not part of this conversation but I did overhear someone replying that the baby might not be comfortable or have something wrong otherwise if she was constantly fussy.

This baby was three months old. That's right. Three MONTHS old. Looking back, I'm sorry I didn't butt in and try to convince this woman more strongly that her viewpoint was insane. But she did listen to the other person detailing some medical reasons (colic, anyone?) the baby could be unhappy. I guess that's a good sign. I can only hope, since the thought that this poor child will be "trained" out of her "strong-willed arrogance" at three months old is heartbreaking. Seriously, the level of child-development ignorance most fundies seem to have is breathtaking.

Clearly she must have some amazing genius baby if she knew enough at three months to look at fundies with disdain

[holothuroidea]

"Oh my dear woman, what a sweet black-hearted sinner you have. You are such a wonderful mother. How large of a switch do you whip her with?"

[Sailing on Europa]

I'd say it starts from birth (teaching a newborn that it can't control it's environment by not feeding on demand, enforcing bedtimes etc) and babyhood (blanket training), but that they ramp it up at certain stages.

Wow, I didn't know that Michelle didn't feed on demand.

Does she spank her kids? I seem to remember her saying she doesn't, but I might be imagining that. Why does the Duggar family promote the Pearl book so much when the Duggars don't use THAT level of physical discipline? Clearly the Duggars control and repress and crush spirits, but I would honestly think they would have a problem with the physical violence toward babies and kids, promoted in the Pearl's book.

[lilith]

She not only doesnt feed on demand, she only breastfeeds for six months max before passing the bub off to it's buddy and trying to conceive her next blessing.

One thing I will say for Zsuzsanna, at least she breastfeeds on demand and until either the child weans itself or she conceives. She is just as desperate to fill her quiver, and looks up to Michelle Duggar, but at least she gives her babies the best start she can food wise.

Of course, she breaks their will in many other ways.