Fundie spirit crushing - when & how does it begin?

[QAF_Rocks]

Actually there is some evidence for this. The word translated to 'rod' in these verses is the same word, in the hebrew, as the word used for scepter, as in the scepter held out towards Esther, one of protection. The word is also used when refering to a shepherding staff, which is used for guidance, shepherding, not beating. The argument can be made that the rod reffered to above is meant to be correction through dicipline, guidance, not nececarily physical force.

I'm not worried about the word "rod." I'm worried about the word "beat."

Because, frankly, unless there's a mistranslation of that word, I don't see any ambiguity around these verses:

Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."

Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Shoel)."

[BabyFullOfSin]

And this is the thread that brings me out of lurkdom ... and inspired my nickname. :clap:

Because babies are, after all, evil little beasts who spend all of their non-napping time planning out their next sin. I have a 4 month old daughter and I can see it in her sinful little eyes.

Oh wait... no, I see trust, love, dependence, and innocence. I don't believe in God, but the closest thing I've seen to pure, reverent joy is in this baby's face.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong and she's up in her crib right now plotting all the evil deeds she can commit tomorrow.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Strangely enough, this could have been written about how my now ex husband treated me and our pets. I don't really want to go into details, but... this is not discipline. It's abuse, plain and simple.

Speaking of pets... the other big proponent of this "exert your control and crush their will! Every chance you get! To show YOU are in charge! Crush their rebellious spirits! Just because! Make every little thing an epic battle of wills and then CRUSH!" is a guy James Dobson. I first heard him on the radio, and only later was horrified to find that he's written a whole bunch of parenting books.

The reason I bring him up on hearing "pets" is that on his radio show he talked about disciplining his dog - with a belt. Yes, he had a battle of wills with a DOG, and resulted in him beating the dog, to make sure it was submissive.

I just can't even say how much that guy disgusts me, and I've only just heard him on the radio.

It's a common thing he and the Pearls seem to share, along with loads of their followers online - they just can't understand that sometimes it's okay to NOT CARE about what exactly your kid is doing or wants or whatever it is, if it really doesn't matter in the big scheme of things what order your kid does whatever tasks he has, why not just let him do whatever? If it all gets done? Be lazy? But for these authoritarians, no, no NO, they can't pass up any possible chance to have a battle of wills. It's just ridiculous.

And as others said too I agree it seems they have no clue about development. It's easier to teach someone something or explain it to them when they have language and some experience with cause and effect or whatever. If a kid is too young they are just not going to get it, and so rather than try to beat some "don't touch the XXX" into them, why not just put it away? These people go on and on about "oh but you have to start early!!" as if they don't realize that yeah, it will take you five years if you start trying to explain something to a baby but if you just wait until the kid is 5, it takes a short time?? If your kid wants to wear some crazy clothes, as long as they're okay for the weather, does it really matter if he looks goofy, particularly if you're not going anywhere important? But to these people, heaven forbid a kid get his way in anything at all no matter how minor because then they might take advantage...

[Sola]

In utero.

Think I'm kidding? I'm not. The planning starts then, so that's where the spirit crushing starts.

[DarkAnts]

Now of course, one could argue whether to take these literally, but fundies believe that the Bible is inerrant, and that they should follow these instructions when parenting their children.

Except when they dont what it is sayng. Heance the whole Jesus drank grape juice.

[DarkAnts]

Wow, I didn't know that Michelle didn't feed on demand.

Does she spank her kids? I seem to remember her saying she doesn't, but I might be imagining that. Why does the Duggar family promote the Pearl book so much when the Duggars don't use THAT level of physical discipline? Clearly the Duggars control and repress and crush spirits, but I would honestly think they would have a problem with the physical violence toward babies and kids, promoted in the Pearl's book.

She has never said that she dosen't spank. She danes around the subject by saying the child is punished in private for doing wrong. She also says that the child is praised in public for doing right.

[Patsy]

Speaking of pets... the other big proponent of this "exert your control and crush their will! Every chance you get! To show YOU are in charge! Crush their rebellious spirits! Just because! Make every little thing an epic battle of wills and then CRUSH!" is a guy James Dobson. I first heard him on the radio, and only later was horrified to find that he's written a whole bunch of parenting books.

The reason I bring him up on hearing "pets" is that on his radio show he talked about disciplining his dog - with a belt. Yes, he had a battle of wills with a DOG, and resulted in him beating the dog, to make sure it was submissive.

I just can't even say how much that guy disgusts me, and I've only just heard him on the radio.

My mum owned a parenting book by him about five years ago. I picked it up, recognised the name as a Focus on the Family guy who'd abused a dog, skimmed some of it (I remember something about 'tough love' with teens, and being disapproving of a hypothetical scenario that included homosexuality) and mentioned the book the next day, without saying who he was. "Yes. I don't think I like what that book says." /coolstorybro, but for a fleeting terrifying moment I thought she was going to take his advice seriously :/

[QAF_Rocks]

Except when they dont what it is sayng. Heance the whole Jesus drank grape juice.

Sure, they often spin the Bible to fit their preconceived notions. Liberals and moderates do the same thing. But in the case of beating children, the verses seem pretty straightforward. The problem isn't that they're misunderstanding the verses. It's that they look to the Bible as a source of authority and are willing to do anything it says, no matter what kind of harm it causes.

[IamCanadian]

We went to a fundie church (Plymouth Brethren) but we weren't really all that fundie at home. Except for belt whippings. I was the oldest of four girls. I was not an unruly child so I didn't get the belt as often as the next two sisters (afaik my youngest sister was never whipped or spanked). My spirit started to feel crushed at fundie Bible school (unaccredited college...I only went there because the boy I had a crush on went there), then further when I panicked at a Blll Gothard seminar, back when it was in its infancy ('70s). There was no frickin way I was going to heaven if all that Bill Gothard crap was right...so, I did not return to Bible school and spent the next 15 years sowing my wild oats. My parents were having marriage problems, I think they were glad to get rid of me.

This may be OT, but maybe you can give me advice. I just applied for an English teaching job and although the job posting mentioned nothing about religion, a quick google search (after I submitted the application, of course) indicates that the school is run by the exclusive brethren. Is that the same as the Plymouth Brethren? I found this video on youtube (not breaking link because it's youtube), and now I don't know what to think.

I'm pretty sure I don't want to teach students who think that I'm an evil worldly, but it does appeal to my fascination with all things fundy.

Edited because of wrong link

[BabyFullOfSin]

This topic is just crushing my heart - I can't imagine looking into the eyes of a child (or baby! WTF) who trusts and adores me, and purposely causing them harm and pain. I felt nauseous when I accidentally pinched my baby's finger.

[nomoxian]

In utero.

Think I'm kidding? I'm not. The planning starts then, so that's where the spirit crushing starts.

I think you're right :(

[Hevcoh]

Sorry, but this argument strikes me as the same kind people use when they try to say that the Bible doesn't actually condone sexism, or homophobia, or slavery, or genocide. There are verses that explicitly mention beating children.

Prov 13:24: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes (diligently)."

Prov 19:18: "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying."

Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."

Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Shoel)."

Prov 29:15: "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."

Now of course, one could argue whether to take these literally, but fundies believe that the Bible is inerrant, and that they should follow these instructions when parenting their children.

In that case they shouldn't eat pork, seafood, wear clothes of fabric blends and so so so many other things. Those good people forget that the Old Testament is not pick and choose your own doctrine...

[Wandering]

For our fundy-lite family the "spirit-crushing" was mostly reserved as a job for our church elders. I remember HATING going to Sunday School because I was always being "corrected" i.e. being forced to write Bible verses over and over and over again for infractions such as laughing with another girl who sat next to me while the teacher was talking. The more fundie families would have the Sunday school teacher report on their behavior in class so they could "correct" their children themselves. For our personal family it was being forced into gender roles VERY early on. At 3 I loved playing with plastic dinosaurs and one day they were gone and replaced with Barbies. When I was 13 a well meaning teacher (we went to public school) gave me a book on feminism and a collection of Kate Chopin's work and my parents went nuts. From then on out I had to hide all of my books from my parents or they would be replaced with material that would be "better suited for the health of my spirit". The stricter parents we know start mandating certain behaviors as young as 18 months.