Squeezing the kids in tiny houses

[Feberin]

A while back I used to snoop on fundies using the MOMYS message board and there were some on there who did make their children's space needs a priority. I don't remember anything else about this woman but I remember she had like seven boys who all shared the master bedroom while her husband and her took a smaller room. I remember she posted that there were more boys in the room then her husband and her so of course they needed the larger bedroom. I also believe she had them on a few sets of real bunkbeds.

I think a lot depends on money. My husband and I bought our house in 2008 after prices had already fallen a decent amount in our area however they've continued to really fall and unless they start to improving at best we'll come out even for our house (which is OK since we're saving up quite a bit for the downpayment on the next house). It's a three bedroom townhouse but one of the bedrooms is super tiny. The other two are probably the same size. We figure we could fit at most three kids in our house. Of course I'm not fond of the elementary school so we're hoping to move before our son starts kindergarten. He's only one year old so we have time. However we are a double income family who doesn't have a baby every year. If a fundie was in our area I don't know how they'd manage to afford a house big enough without buying a real fixer up type or being even further into the ghetto then we are right now.

[Olivia]

You know, I'd like a bigger family, but there are limits to how many children I would have because I think every child deserves a good education, a bed of their own, and some one-on-one attention from their parents. I just don't understand these people, at all.

And as for LiaS, she also has that post up about how you too can be a SAHM and a part of it is giving up things like tae kwan do, dance, sports etc for your kids because those are "wants". Well, you know what, as far as I'm concerned your husband working for ministry for a low salary (if there's something else he might be able to do that could have a better salary/benefits), you staying at home instead of working, the two of you having that many kids -- those are all "wants" too, and they shouldn't supersede your children's needs for a decent quality of life with a real mattress of their own.

[gustava]

But don't you think even if they had more room they'd still be stacking the kids like cordwood? It's all about keeping order and subjugating the will of the individual. Besides if they are all together in one room the angelic ones can rat out the others.

I agree--and with whoever said it's intended to keep them from masturbating.

And look at the Duggars: They're wealthy, have a huge house, and not only are the kids stacked like cordwood (figuratively speaking) some of the little ones apparently don't even have real beds.

Stacking like cordwood is a control mechanism.

[doggie]

I agree--and with whoever said it's intended to keep them from masturbating.

And look at the Duggars: They're wealthy, have a huge house, and not only are the kids stacked like cordwood (figuratively speaking) some of the little ones apparently don't even have real beds.

Stacking like cordwood is a control mechanism.

right control loss of individuality and no self sex no freedom no fre time to plan rebellions. When you see all these quiverful parents doing the same thing and the kids love it you know something un natural is happening.

[maybeizfundie]

I do think space and indoor privacy is a luxury that we have gotten used to here, for better or for worse. I used to visit an old lady who told me her parents raised 15 children in a home like the one we had at the time, under 1000 sq ft. The children had the two bedrooms, and the parents made their bedroom in the living room. I went home that day with a whole different perception of that house. HOW did they DO that????

While I think it is possible that LIAS kids are perfectly happy with the arrangment (particularly as it seems they have plenty of space outdoors if they need to get away from each other), it definitely wouldn't be my preference. We live in a more urban area and the kids don't have the ability to get outside, find a tree to climb, go for a solitary jog, etc. We could fit quite a few more kids into our house, but definitely would be moving things around so that they could have at least a small space of their own, if not a whole room.

I grew up room-sharing with my two younger sisters. I liked my quiet/alone space, but it was easily accomplished with creative furniture arrangement. We often had large free-standing closets that basically formed a partial room for me, my bed, and my desk within our shared room.

[YPestis]

What people have discussed regarding squeezing kids in tiny houses are valid. Depending on location, one can augment the house. Others may have no choice due to lack of land/high cost of living. However, the problem would then be because of poor planning by the parents who are having children beyond what they can afford. That appears to be a bigger culprit amongst many fundies who eschew birth control and can only eke out a modest living.

That said, most of what people in the US considers 'necessity' would be considered luxury for the rest of the world. Both my parents grew up in China where sharing beds with siblings is common.

When they first came to this country and heard American children tended to have their own rooms, they were astounded by such luxury. They had thought any family able to provide their children a separate bed was doing "very well", so they were hardly sympathetic when people complaining about small houses.

This doesn't excuse what fundies do with their multitude of children. There's no reason to purposely emulate a third world standard of living but it's not as bad as one would think....

[Kaylee]

The septic/bedrooms thing may have more of in impact with selling a home than living there. My main experience with it has been as a realtor, but there's a rule in NC that if a house has 5 bedrooms but the septic permit is for a 3 bedroom house then it can only be sold/advertised as a 3 bedroom with 2 "bonus rooms" or whatever. Some building inspectors will not issue permits for the extra bedrooms, but some obviously do because it's something I've seen several times.

[TMS]

This doesn't excuse what fundies do with their multitude of children. There's no reason to purposely emulate a third world standard of living but it's not as bad as one would think....

EXACTLY. I have heard fundies saying that having a small house filled with many children is fine, because hey, look at the rest of the world, they do it. But there is no excuse for that here in the US. The difference is parents in poor, 3rd world countries don't choose to live in extreme poverty.

[gustava]

The septic/bedrooms thing may have more of in impact with selling a home than living there. My main experience with it has been as a realtor, but there's a rule in NC that if a house has 5 bedrooms but the septic permit is for a 3 bedroom house then it can only be sold/advertised as a 3 bedroom with 2 "bonus rooms" or whatever. Some building inspectors will not issue permits for the extra bedrooms, but some obviously do because it's something I've seen several times.

About septic systems: I'm in the process of obtaining a "right to shit" permit, so I have some knowledge. Where I am, the septic field is designed to accommodate the number of bedrooms in the house. If I were to later add a bedroom, I'd have to apply for another building permit and my septic field would be evaluated and I might have to extend it to accommodate the new bedroom.

I doubt that's why inashoe is stuffing her children into one room, however. She's simply a vicious bitch of a control freak..... Now let me tell you how I really feel about her :D

[Wolfie]

The septic/bedrooms thing may have more of in impact with selling a home than living there. My main experience with it has been as a realtor, but there's a rule in NC that if a house has 5 bedrooms but the septic permit is for a 3 bedroom house then it can only be sold/advertised as a 3 bedroom with 2 "bonus rooms" or whatever. Some building inspectors will not issue permits for the extra bedrooms, but some obviously do because it's something I've seen several times.

Same here- my septic is for 4 or 5 bedrooms, but my house was still listed as two bedrooms with two bonus rooms. (probably because one of the bonus rooms is small- it's sort of an office/sunroom, and the other one doesn't have a closet.) But I do remember the whole septic issue when looking at houses.

[Katiebug]

Mr. Bug and I kind of agonize a bit over our home. While we have 3 bedrooms, the master bedroom and one other are on the upper level while the third bedroom (the original master bedroom) is on the main level. This is very common around here - Cape Cod style homes were built with 1-2 bedrooms on the main floor and then the upstairs would have electrical and rough plumbing for a bathroom and the first homeowner would finish the upstairs to their liking. In our case we have a very large master bedroom and a good-size bedroom upstairs and that original master bedroom on our main level. We use that main level bedroom as a playroom/family room for now.

Because of the housing market tanking, right now our house is worth about what we owe on it (and that's being generous). Quite frankly when we bought in 2006 we assumed that we'd have one kid within a year or two and then sell a few years after that when we were expecting a second child. Neither the baby timing or house selling worked out the way we expected! We have one daughter who is almost 1 and won't be trying for a second child for another year. Mr. Bug and I decided about a year ago that we might as well do what we want with updating/remodeling the house because we'll be stuck here for a while. If the housing market stabilizes and resumes a more-sensible growth rate in the coming years we may be able to sell and buy a bigger house in 7-8 years. If not we will be here longer and will basically only gain equity by paying off the mortgage. If we'd had any idea that our "starter home" would turn into most likely 15+ years of ownership we would have chosen a raised ranch or another layout with three bedrooms on the same level. But we can't change that now, so we're just going to have to make do with what we have.

Our upstairs kids' bedroom is large and we could easily fit a twin bed in there right now along with the crib, dresser/changing table combo, etc. When we have a second baby, s/he will be in our room for the first 6-12 months and then will move into that bedroom with our daughter. Because we have the downstairs bedroom in use as a playroom/family room, all our baby does in her room now is sleep and it will be the same when we have two kids in that room as well. I'm not sure what we'll do if we have three kids and we haven't regained enough equity to sell - probably keep the baby in our room for as long as possible and then move our oldest to the downstairs bedroom. We would not be comfortable with having a child younger than school age sleeping on a different level from us.

So I can see having kids 2-3 in an average-sized bedroom and using another bedroom as a playroom or whatever as long as everyone is happy with the situation. I cannot comprehend stacking children like cordwood at 6-8 to a bedroom, though.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I do think space and indoor privacy is a luxury that we have gotten used to here, for better or for worse.

Having grown up sleeping on the floor and putting the bedding away in the daytime, which was normal for my area, I'd agree. The main space need was room for each kid to have a desk of some sort, and then storage space for stuff. Of course, our parents lived the same way. Rooms and apartments were just small. I have a tiny house by American standards now and to me it still seems huge. Main thing though, if the bedding completely goes away up in the closet in the daytime, that's floor space you don't need to have extra.

I rented an apartment once (in the US) where the bed was built in and folded down from the wall so it completely disappeared in the daytime also. It was a single room apartment, built somewhere around 1920.

But IF you're gonna buy beds, yeah, seems real bunk beds would be the way to go! You can fit quite a few in one room, and if you put curtains with ties or velcro on them (like they do at youth hostels) you do get some privacy in there. Though I suspect the people who are stacking kids like cordwood so they don't feel themselves up would probably have some weird policy against closing the curtains...

[Crackedeggs]

Having grown up sleeping on the floor and putting the bedding away in the daytime, which was normal for my area, I'd agree. The main space need was room for each kid to have a desk of some sort, and then storage space for stuff. Of course, our parents lived the same way. Rooms and apartments were just small. I have a tiny house by American standards now and to me it still seems huge. Main thing though, if the bedding completely goes away up in the closet in the daytime, that's floor space you don't need to have extra.

I rented an apartment once (in the US) where the bed was built in and folded down from the wall so it completely disappeared in the daytime also. It was a single room apartment, built somewhere around 1920.

But IF you're gonna buy beds, yeah, seems real bunk beds would be the way to go! You can fit quite a few in one room, and if you put curtains with ties or velcro on them (like they do at youth hostels) you do get some privacy in there. Though I suspect the people who are stacking kids like cordwood so they don't feel themselves up would probably have some weird policy against closing the curtains...

They call those Murphy Beds.

[yetanothermeg]

GardenVarietyCitizen, what kind of beds did you have? Were they like futon mattresses? Do you have a link or a pic of what it would look like? I am looking for something like this for a little nap spot for my son (he doesn't like to nap in his bed for some reason).

[clibbyjo]

Same here- my septic is for 4 or 5 bedrooms, but my house was still listed as two bedrooms with two bonus rooms. (probably because one of the bonus rooms is small- it's sort of an office/sunroom, and the other one doesn't have a closet.) But I do remember the whole septic issue when looking at houses.

Wow, I had no idea and never even considered adding more bedrooms would be a problem with my septic! I have 2 tanks, so maybe that counts for more than 3 bedrooms so its a non-issue? I have 3 acres ,so its not like adding another tank or adding on would impact anyone else. I am rural(ish) country area. My zoning is weird anyway, they say I cannot have chickens, when a few acres down they have horses!!

I grew up sharing a bedroom and my boys share now. My Mom grew up with 10 siblings and it was 5 to a bed with the girls in 1 room(9 girls altogther) and 2 boys had the other. My Mom is one of the oldest sos she never had all 9 girls in with her. She moved out around age 16 anyway because she was a live in nanny and then got married at 18.(this was the 1950's in a very poor/ rural area of NY)

[gardenvarietycitizen]

GardenVarietyCitizen, what kind of beds did you have? Were they like futon mattresses? Do you have a link or a pic of what it would look like? I am looking for something like this for a little nap spot for my son (he doesn't like to nap in his bed for some reason).

We had actual futon. Japanese futon. :)

But yes, they're like really thick padded cushions (full body length) on the bottom, and then a lighter one on top (or in summer, just a "towelket" which is like a really big sheet-sized towel). The futon has a cover (a big bag that zips shut), which gets washed, and you air them out regularly. It's very firm, but if you grow up sleeping that way, you get used to it. The handy thing is, you can choose where to sleep every day, so if a kid is sick and wants to sleep with Mom, it's not a problem. I should say too in the house we never wore shoes, so sleeping on the floor isn't a problem.

From a random internet search I found a picture of a baby sleeping on one (the room has a few laid out):

From that same search here is a kid getting one out of the closet:

Thing is though, usually everyone sleeps that way if that's how the house sleeps. In the other thread on bedrooms I was weirded out not so much by the various beds (I'm plain and like a hard surface, I'd probably be okay with even those odd small bunks) but the way the parents in the one house had a huge palatial room while their kids were all crammed in. I mean, our place was small, but it was small for EVERYONE. And even in that one family photo, it's not so much the bed I was jealous of, but all that desk and easel space...! Seemed the kids in that house didn't have much room, period. Hopefully they at least have their own desks and shelves.

[emmiedahl]

I used to visit an old lady who told me her parents raised 15 children in a home like the one we had at the time, under 1000 sq ft. The children had the two bedrooms, and the parents made their bedroom in the living room. I went home that day with a whole different perception of that house. HOW did they DO that????

I think the part I bolded is the main idea. My maternal family grew up in third world conditions, and they grew up happy. There is imo a huge difference between children sacrificing so their parents can have a dedicated library, and parents sacrificing so their kids can have a little more space. It sucks that in every single quiverfull family, the kids are the ones doing the sacrificing. It says something to the kids about their worth and their place in the family. It would be one thing if the parents were sleeping on Costco shelving, modeling that JOY they are always talking about.

I know what it's like to give things up for your kids. I currently have the baby in my room so my 7 yo can have a little more space and privacy. He gets headaches and needs his quiet sometimes. And my teenage boy will always have his own room from here on out, even if I had to sleep on the couch. He is the oldest in a house full of kids. He deserves 'teen space' to do his thing, talk to friends in privacy and keep his stuff out of toddler reach.

That's how normal poor parents think. How can I make this easier on my kids?

[maybeizfundie]

There is imo a huge difference between children sacrificing so their parents can have a dedicated library, and parents sacrificing so their kids can have a little more space

Absolutely.

Which brings it back to whether one believes the *kids* asked for the library as she says, or the parents wanted it and are lying about that.

[Daisy4]

I mean, carpenters and plumbers and such are needed everywhere, right?

Nope, in this economy no job is safe. I have a brother who is a union carpenter and another who is a contractor and they have both had a rough time with work in the past few years.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Denying privacy can be a prelude to mental health issues. Everyone needs "alone" time. I think these families make such a huge deal out of "impure thoughts" that I wonder how their kids avoid having them? And, when do they get to just breathe?? Never, I guess. So sad.

I saw families in Africa living in one or two rooms. Whenever possible each child at least had a mat or blanket of their own. It's a myth that families in 3rd world all sleep together because it's so "natural." It's pure economics. When they can afford it they add a blanket--or a ROOM. It's not something they choose.

[Brainsample]

Which brings it back to whether one believes the *kids* asked for the library as she says, or the parents wanted it and are lying about that.

Which brings up the next question as to what kids ask for and whether that makes it right. I wanted a baby lion and tiger as a pet, I read "My Side of the Mountain" and wanted to do live off the land in a cave for a year as an eight year old, wanted to build a place to hide Jews in our house after I was taken to see "The Hiding Place" in the theater at age 7 or 8 after standing in line for hours, etc... I would have loved a library, and I'd have probably loved to have slept in the library on a shelf, too, when I was very young.

And sometimes, with some things, you state "Yeah, Mom" because you know if you express your real feelings, you'll be shamed into oblivion.

I thought that one of the big selling points in patriarchy is that a parent must know best. A kid could ask that you take them on a trip to the moon, or Disneyworld, or the local amusement park every day. Part of the parent's job involves providing rules to protect the child's safety and well being because they lack that ability as children or young adults.

But in this case, there are testimonials from the kids, I guess.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I will say that even if people sleep on the floor, in our case there were multiple rooms in the apartment (even with someone sleeping in the main room) so there can be a door between people. Little kids sleeping earlier sleep in a room with the door closed off from the main room. You can even have your own room and sleep on the floor - just means your room can be far smaller, because during the day there's no bedding out.

We also definitely had individual desks and shelves (my desk is MINE, you don't sit at it!).

But the other thing is, there was no expectation that people be home all the time either. You can go to the park, you can just plain go out, hang out in the stairs, whatever it is. Stay at school, go roam around with your friends, go to the library... What strikes me about so many of the families followed here is how hard they insist that people should rightly want to stay at home all the time, in the house. Spending 24/7 in my house would drive me NUTS, even if I had some spacious palace.

[jenny_islander]

Exactly. I mean do you really need a library or a music room? I have a ton of books and they're just kind of everywhere because if we designated a room for books, we would have either a) less living space or b) one less bedroom and while I would like it if we had an extra room to make into a library, we don't. You just have to make do with what you have sometimes. Why they don't try to make it more comfortable for the children they love so dearly is beyond me.

I suspect that for some of these families, the arrangement is perfectly logical. The children are the accessory to the lifestyle. They are there to be photographed reading wholesome books in the library and playing sacred music in the music room. When they aren't playing their assigned roles, they go back on their shelves.

[doggie]

I suspect that for some of these families, the arrangement is perfectly logical. The children are the accessory to the lifestyle. They are there to be photographed reading wholesome books in the library and playing sacred music in the music room. When they aren't playing their assigned roles, they go back on their shelves.

seen but not heard.

[Brainsample]

Does Kim show pictures of the library? Is it a proper room? Could it just actually be a fairly large bookcase that is called their "library"?? I've known people to call their "library" a pile of Reader's Digest condensed bound books their which consisted of the space against the wall under and beside a window with books just stacked and laying on their sides.

Has anyone considered that it might not be a proper room that is suitable as a bedroom, and something more of a breakfast nook?