Sons of Jubal in North Korea

[terranova]

mcdonnellblog.com/1/post/2012/05/overseas-tour-part-2-dprk-sons-of-jubal.html

I was interested to see this Baptist Men's choir from Georgia singing in the DPRK. They attended The International Spring Friendship Arts Festival.

Photos clearly show the good side (if there is one) of North Korean life, the side tourists are shown. There is no mention of the starvation outside of the main centres. Either the choir were totally ignorant of the reality in NK, or they just didn't care.

I think it's interesting a religious choir was allowed to sing there at all!

[JesusFightClub]

NK is not in starvation mode at moment

Although you won`t dine luxuriously outside Pyongyang.

[RR88]

NK is not in starvation mode at moment

Bullshit.

[CanadianHippie]

Bullshit.

Having a look at NK economy and politics I'd have to agree with RR88. The whole thing is designed around making people too dependent on the Church of Kim Jong and I have no doubts that Jong-il's death has made it even more important to limit resources to the majority to prevent any sort of uprising.

[uber frau]

Last northern summer there were reports that food was becoming scarcer and more children were becoming malnourished. Since then it's become clear that NK is suffering the worst drought it's had for 50 years and food aid has been cut (again). It's shaping up to be similar to the famine in the 90's.

But anyway, the poor heathens need Jesus far more than they need food in their bellies. :roll: (If you come to a place to help, ppl will become "Christian" just to be fed and we can't have that, can we?)

[Sola]

Bullshit.

It's true.

By that I mean they aren't currently in starvation/famine, but if things don't change over the next couple of months, they will be. It isn't looking good and it seems that crop failure is likely, couple that with sanctions and NK will probably be back in famine and starvation mode by the end of the year.

That said, the only people right now who are fed anything like decently are the ones in the large cities. The rural and farming areas are always one step away from famine.

[crassy]

NK is not in starvation mode at moment

Although you won`t dine luxuriously outside Pyongyang.

Yes they are. It is not quite like the famine/drought like they had in the 90s but food is by no means plentiful for those other than the elite who are allowed to live in Pyongyang. Even there, it is only the elite of the elite who have more than enough. Anyone in the smaller communities/cities are still dying of starvation. In a UN report issued last October, they estimate that 50% of North Korean children who live in the northern districts are chronically malnourished. It is estimated that since Kim Jong Il died in December, over 20 000 people in South Hwanghae Province have died of starvation.

I would say that, yeah, starvation mode is most definitely still in effect just not to the same extent...though it is probably headed that way.

[Esther]

I always wonder that if the US cares so damn much about "nation-building" and the "spread of democracy" as they claim they do, why don't they march into North Korea and take over the damn place? They'd have my blessing. Biggest shithole on earth.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I always wonder that if the US cares so damn much about "nation-building" and the "spread of democracy" as they claim they do, why don't they march into North Korea and take over the damn place? They'd have my blessing. Biggest shithole on earth.

Because they have a huge army, are actively testing nukes, and have a batshit crazy family maintaining an iron grip on the country?

There's a chance that a full-on military approach would just feed into the existing propaganda that North Korea is feeding to its people, making them feel that the government and military are all that stand between them and destruction by the West.

As well, China is propping up the regime, in part because it doesn't want to be flooded with North Korean refugees.

OTOH, it's possible that the regime would not survive increased contact with the rest of the world, since the regime keeps it so closed. One day of satellite television or unfiltered internet access would probably do more harm than a military assault.

[LilMissMetaphor]

NK is not in starvation mode at moment

:roll:

Someone forgot to give this girl your memo, I guess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGR0BD2e1Ok

[2xx1xy1JD]

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr/04 ... s-20120404

http://news.yahoo.com/north-koreans-ric ... 42781.html

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... ea/250244/

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-574 ... er-crisis/

Tell me again how the North Korean regime isn't allowing it's non-elites to starve?

[RR88]

I often say that North Korea is the most religious nation on the planet. I later listened to a lecture that the late Christopher Hitchens gave in which he stated much the same thing.

To North Koreans, the Kim dynasty is a god. After Kim Jong Il died, I watched the footage of his funeral with its masses of hysterical "cry or die" mourners, and said to myself, "So this is what happens when a god dies."

(I tried posting this last night, but I kept getting a 503 error each time I attempted to log into FJ.)

I'll add to the above by saying that nation-building wouldn't likely work with North Korea. As a libertarian, I'm not too big of a fan of nation-building, though this is a situation where such action might be warranted. The problem is that the people of North Korea (who, due to malnourishment, are on average half a foot shorter than their South Korean neighbors, even though the two societies are identical in terms of ethnicity and other factors) are so effectively brainwashed into worshiping at the altar of the Kim dynasty that I'm not sure they'd be able to "handle" relative freedom. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't be free, but North Korea is the closest thing to autarky that this planet has seen. And a society based on autarky will have an extremely difficult time transitioning to anything else, I think.

[crassy]

I often say that North Korea is the most religious nation on the planet. I later listened to a lecture that the late Christopher Hitchens gave in which he stated much the same thing.

I have had this argument with theists before. The usual answer from them is 'Oh, well it isn't a real religion so it doesn't count'. O.o

[fakepigtails73]

Bullshit.

agree with you on this, RR88.

DPRK is hell on earth.

It seems like the whole country is a religious cult.

I saw a doc. last year on 4 US soldiers that defected into it from the demarcation line in the 60s-70s. Very interesting doc. Only 1 of them still lives there, 2 of them died and one left with his Japanese wife 5 or 6 yrs ago (he went back to is unit to deal with the consequences, was in the brig for a few weeks).

[emmiedahl]

You can tell a country has problems when it has to lock its citizens inside. Most countries have trouble keeping people OUT. A person has to be very uncomfortable to leave their family, home and culture and risk being shot to crawl over a border.

[frumperlicious]

Woah...it is a rare day indeed when my 2 hobbies (fundie watching and nK watching) coincide!

JFC is right- since the famine of the 90's, nK citizens are much more resourceful. Those who weren't, well, they already died. Everyone left has learned to use the gray market, bribes and whatever else to survive. By American standards, yeah, life sucks, but starving they are not, at least on a grand scale.

It is a giant religious cult though, I agree with that! The Kim family dynasty is God and country all mixed into one. But slowly, slowly, it is changing through zip drives and mobile phones and DVDs of decadent south Korean dramas.

Many of the front line people who help escaping north Koreans are religious groups- I can't snark on that. It is a dangerous job, especially for defectors or ethnic Koreans. As the rest of the world seems to be happy relegating these people to their hell hole for eternity (I include south Korea in that- they don't want reunification and all its problems any more than China does) I applaud their sacrifices and daring.

[LilMissMetaphor]

JFC is right- since the famine of the 90's, nK citizens are much more resourceful. Those who weren't, well, they already died. Everyone left has learned to use the gray market, bribes and whatever else to survive. By American standards, yeah, life sucks, but starving they are not, at least on a grand scale.

Did you read any of the links that 2xx1xy1JD posted? How many people dying of starvation is required before you consider it a "grand scale"? Does 20,000 in one province since December not cut it?

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/htm ... 00587.html

And forget the crap about people in the cities having plenty while only a few unimportant country dwellers who aren't "resourceful" die.

Food shortages mean well-off families in North Korea are getting two meals a day, everyone else makes do with just one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11244825

[RR88]

Also, a "resourceful" North Korean isn't an entrepreneur or a productive farmer. A citizen is fed in accordance with her family's loyalty to the Great Leader, the Dear Leader, and the Great Successor. Loyalty is really the only form of resourcefulness that a North Korean has. The government's harems and "joy squads", for example, are filled with women who are better fed than most citizens because they demonstrate their loyalty by being playthings and sex objects for high-ranking officials.

[0KidsAndHappy]

Has anyone watched the Vice Guide to North Korea? It's one of the most brilliant pieces I have seen about the place.

http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-t ... rea-1-of-3

They have minders and aren't allowed to see the real North Korea, but everything they do get to view is completely surreal.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I often say that North Korea is the most religious nation on the planet. I later listened to a lecture that the late Christopher Hitchens gave in which he stated much the same thing.

To North Koreans, the Kim dynasty is a god. After Kim Jong Il died, I watched the footage of his funeral with its masses of hysterical "cry or die" mourners, and said to myself, "So this is what happens when a god dies."

(I tried posting this last night, but I kept getting a 503 error each time I attempted to log into FJ.)

I'll add to the above by saying that nation-building wouldn't likely work with North Korea. As a libertarian, I'm not too big of a fan of nation-building, though this is a situation where such action might be warranted. The problem is that the people of North Korea (who, due to malnourishment, are on average half a foot shorter than their South Korean neighbors, even though the two societies are identical in terms of ethnicity and other factors) are so effectively brainwashed into worshiping at the altar of the Kim dynasty that I'm not sure they'd be able to "handle" relative freedom. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't be free, but North Korea is the closest thing to autarky that this planet has seen. And a society based on autarky will have an extremely difficult time transitioning to anything else, I think.

The North Korean political establishment has certainly created a Kim cult.

I'm not sure, though, how long such a "cult" would exist without the government making any dissent punishable by death.

In some ways, North Korea has some similarity to China during the Mao cult. If you haven't read it, I'd strongly recommend Jung Chang's "Wild Swans". She talks about how she lost faith in Mao during the Cultural Revolution, and also talks about how everyone was expected to burst into tears when he died. Afterward, when the Gang of Four was purged, there was a period of relative freedom and people got over the Mao cult fairly quickly. Many of those people hadn't been true believers in years, but had been operating out of fear. In that way, it's a bit different from a religious group operating in a society with freedom of religion, where the coercion is largely internal.

What would take longer to erase would be some of the habits and mindsets that come with living in a totalitarian regime. To give a simple example - I've worked with Lithuanians in Canada who didn't believe in the Soviet regime, but who maintained odd (for Canadians) habits when it came to dealings with government agencies. You would see attempts to work with agencies to get freebies, but at the same time they would treat the agencies like the enemy and get all paranoid, or even attempt to the agencies to "inform" on people that they didn't like. Some of these agencies didn't have a lot of power, so it was both a source of amusement and irritation to deal with these tactics.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

The main thing about North Korea is that it's a stratified society. There are three main classes, and everyone blames the people on the bottom (the ones that most of the missionaries talk about, the ones that inspire great rescues, and the ones starving) for their own problems. People don't think "let's all rise up and overthrow this craziness" because they instead think "those people brought it on themselves by [being disloyal, etc]. Smart people know to keep their heads down and follow the rules, those people are just dumbasses and from bad blood, so screw 'em." (Heredity and lineage is also a huge thing in the system, and partly used to justify things like crimes being punished on three generations - so if you commit a crime, your parents AND your children also share the punishment because you're "bad," so they clearly are of bad stock too.)

Divide and conquer works wonders for any regime wishing to stay in power, not just NK. People don't look up when they have convenient scapegoats to look down upon.

But meanwhile there are people who voluntarily cross the border with China and RETURN, smuggling in various goods and whatnot, and yeah, there's a black market. Of course the regime managed to thwart a lot of the black market by changing the money recently - people couldn't hand in any excess "how did you get this much?" banknotes without being noticed, and they just refused to swap the old notes for new (or accept old notes) after a certain date, so people who had hoards saw it evaporate.

When Japan cut off trade with them (cut off more trade with them) the Japanese government had to compensate a bunch of people to make up for the difference in their lost business. NK exports things, including seafood.

[fakepigtails73]

Even their soldiers look seriously malnourished...

A few yrs back a North Korean pilot defected (to Russia or Japan? I forgot) with his MIG. The members of the govt. who debriefed him told the press that the guy was thinner than what is normal for a man his size, and that he wasn't wearing any boots or shoes. Instead he wore self-made "slippers" made out of cleaning paper!

Not many people are able to complete their defections; I think that China ships them back automatically if caught through their borders, and one can't go to South Korea without going through another country first (because of the demarcation zone).

Does anyone here know about the dozens (maybe more?) of citizens kidnapped from other countries (like Japan, South Korea, even Romania and Lebanon) by NK agents in the 70s and 80s?? A Japanese journalist wrote a book on this, sadly it's not translated in neither English or French. Kim Jong-Il was a huge movie buff so he had a fairly famous South Korean actress kidnapped along with her movie director husband. They were sent back some yrs afterwards, after he was made to teach his craft to NK directors. She was forced to act in some of their propaganda films. Weird!

[JesusFightClub]

Making a technical point not a political one. Do not love NK gov't

But they are not meeting UN criteria for a famine. Tho as is said they soon may do

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Some military member defected last year (well, he and 9 members of his family sailed away on a tiny boat, ended up drifting, and were rescued by the Japanese Coast Guard). The family was eventually sent to South Korea as they requested, but in the meantime of course were interviewed by the Japanese government. That guy did say that things are getting tight even for the military, so yeah, while things aren't like it was in the 90's, things are not very prosperous over there again. If the military is facing lack, other people are definitely facing lack.

The Kidnap Victims issue is HUUUUUGE in Japan. Basically some NK agents kidnapped Japanese citizens (from beaches, usually) and took them back to NK to have them train up spies in Japanese so they could pretend to be Japanese on various missions. SK people were similarly taken, to enable people to pretend to be SK citizens.

Probably the most famous kidnap victim in Japan is Yokota Megumi, she was kidnapped on her way home from school in 1977 when she was 13 years old, never to return. There are pictures of her in NK, she married a NK citizen and had a daughter "Kim Hegyon" (not sure how the romanized spelling is) who looks VERY much like her. According to the kid (and NK officials) Megumi committed suicide at some point when Hegyon was small, her father remarried. Megumi's parents (Hegyon's grandparents) have written to her, etc, supposedly she has no desire to leave NK. Megumi's parents and some others in Japan (as well as the official position of the government) is that she might still be alive and so they demand her return. Personally, I doubt she's still alive.

Meanwhile there was an American defector in the Korean War, Charles Jenkins. He voluntarily crossed into NK with some other Americans, he similarly was used in the spy training service, teaching English and making films and similar. He married a Japanese kidnap victim while he was there, and they have eventually left NK and live in Japan now. Some of the other Americans still in NK who insist they don't want to leave regularly trash Jenkins now.

Some of the kidnap victims have been returned to Japan now, NK insists the others are dead, people want to hope they're alive and still being kept for some reason, but... I dunno.

[shesinsane]

I often say that North Korea is the most religious nation on the planet. I later listened to a lecture that the late Christopher Hitchens gave in which he stated much the same thing.

To North Koreans, the Kim dynasty is a god. After Kim Jong Il died, I watched the footage of his funeral with its masses of hysterical "cry or die" mourners, and said to myself, "So this is what happens when a god dies."

(I tried posting this last night, but I kept getting a 503 error each time I attempted to log into FJ.)

I'll add to the above by saying that nation-building wouldn't likely work with North Korea. As a libertarian, I'm not too big of a fan of nation-building, though this is a situation where such action might be warranted. The problem is that the people of North Korea (who, due to malnourishment, are on average half a foot shorter than their South Korean neighbors, even though the two societies are identical in terms of ethnicity and other factors) are so effectively brainwashed into worshiping at the altar of the Kim dynasty that I'm not sure they'd be able to "handle" relative freedom. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't be free, but North Korea is the closest thing to autarky that this planet has seen. And a society based on autarky will have an extremely difficult time transitioning to anything else, I think.

Exactly. A few years ago, National Geographic got permission to film western doctors doing cataract surgery - due to poor nutrition there are tons of North Koreans with cataract caused blindness. There was a room full of people, with the front row filled with patients with gauze/padding over their eyes. One by one the doctor would remove the bandages, and the once blind could see! The first thing each patient did was turn to a picture of Kim Jong Il (this was a few years ago) and praise him and thank him for restoring their sight. Sure, if KJI didn't allow the doctors into North Korea they'd still be blind, but even though the doctor that gave them their vision back was standing right there, all thanks and praise went to the picture of Kim Jong Il.

Part of me assumes they've been programmed to thank KJI for everything and didn't want to get in trouble with the government, but their thanks seemed so genuine, it really looked like many of them were truly thanking Kim Jong Il for restoring their sight (instead of the doctor who did the surgery also standing in the room).