Snake Handlers also Fundie?

[Deleted05]

I actually took some vacations so I could visit some Church of the Signs. I'm a skeptic, but what I saw amazed me and I have no way to explain any of it. I'm completely fascinated by it.

Like what, if you don't mind elaborating?

[Witsec7]

Like what, if you don't mind elaborating?

I'd been fascinated by them for years. I had a friend of a friend who knew Dennis Covington. Since I frequently visited KY, TN and WVA I was able to schedule a couple of vacations around visiting some Church of the Signs.

Again as a skeptic I have no way to explain what I saw. But I saw men handle snakes. I had never seen women handle snakes. The energy I experienced in these churches was powerful.

As far as the reunion in the cemetery goes, we have pioneer cemeteries in Boregonia. Pioneer families will often times hold their reunions at their Pioneer cemetery.

[Burris]

I feel a certain ambivalence about the snake handlers. We have a few churches 'with signs following' in the backwoods of Alberta. Curious, I decided to learn as much as I could about these people.

They seem genuinely nice – and not in that false “keep sweet†sort of way we find among the fundies discussed here. They're also honest about their beliefs, and yet there's a certain charity in how they share their opinions of the modern world. The bitter hatred we see in some fundies seems absent among the snake handlers. They don't follow the world, and they pity (as opposed to hating) those that do.

From what I gathered, the kids don't handle snakes and nor do any adults not specifically “called†to it.

Handlers also have no illusions that everyone will survive an encounter with a snake, and nor to do they think ill of those who die. As far as the snake handlers are concerned, it's merely God's will if a person dies. It has nothing to do with his character. After all, God's rain falls on both the good and the evil.

I was expecting to find a mean, loud, bitterly hostile 'Fred Phelps' among the preachers, all of whom have hands deformed by snake bites. Instead, there were merely earnest folks who believe what they believe and make no apology for it. They were quiet and sober-minded and seemed genuinely content.

They're generally not well-educated from what I've gathered, and yet most of them would give you the shirt off their back if you needed it. They're isolated but most of them are not isolationist: They keep their heads down more as a matter of self-protection than for any other reason, since their practices are seen as odd and even threatening by mainline churches.

[Ex 2x2]

Contrary,

I also loved the Covington book. I'm interested in reading some of the others mentioned in this thread, but I'd highly recommend Salvation on Sand Mountain. I picked it up on a whim one day couldn't put it down.

I'm amazed at how many friends the pastor's wife has. (The one whose facebook is linked above.) You wouldn't think someone so isolated would have something like 1000 friends.

[Ex 2x2]

Hmm, he also has over 1000 friends. That is just surprising to me. I also noticed that they both list a high school for their education. I assume it's public. I assumed they were home schooled.

[Ex 2x2]

SO i have spent way too much time reading Elizabeth's facebook, and then Andrew's. I'm afraid I'm going to start talking like them! They use some seriously bad grammar.

Anyway, Andrew is very emotional. He mentions being sick and needing prayer a ton in his status updates. They seem to all be about church or about him needing prayer. I wonder if being so emotional is part of what drew him to this type of religion. They also get quite a bit of criticism on their pictures, and they do not always handle it graciously. I was surprised by that.

I'm also confused about whether or not he grew up this way. One comment on a picture said, "Andrew, you were not raised this way!" But then on another post his mom comments and seems very supportive.

I'm fascinated by someone as young and uneducated as he is being a pastor.

Edited to add: He says things often like, "Pray for us...the devil is coming after us!" And, "Well, when it rains it pours!" He also posts statuses about how he's sorry if he's offended anyone. It's strange. You'd kind of expect a pastor to try to appear strong. I guess at least he's honest though!

Edited again to add: She's pregnant again! :shock: And now I really must leave these folks and go to bed!!!

[pixydust]

I'm also confused about whether or not he grew up this way. One comment on a picture said, "Andrew, you were not raised this way!" But then on another post his mom comments and seems very supportive.

I wonder if there was a later in life conversion for mom, maybe when Andrew was a young teen? That would explain the "not raised this way" comment and mom being supportive.

[karupin]

NPR did a Soundportrait of the Jolo church, along with another back in 1992. It's a good listen/read. http://soundportraits.org/on-air/they_s ... _serpents/

[Ex 2x2]

Anyone else still follow them on facebook? Andrew has made a lot of his private now, and the last public thing is something about him asking people to post if they still love him. I don't know what happened. His wife is posting a lot of stuff about the devil coming after them. Not sure what is going on. They have a new baby now.

[Ex 2x2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpHIFlUl ... 8F41A64382

[Mama Mia]

I remember as a little kid reading my mom's Firefox books - LOVED them.

I was probably about 8 and found the culture fascinating. I was obviously a geek who was always picked last for teams. Even then I was just amazed that in the same country there could be such a range of what people did and believed.

ETA: I reading that, I think it could come across condescending or snarky -- I don't mean it that way :oops:

[ems]

found this...

http://holiness-snake-handlers.webs.com/

I thought the site was a joke at first...

What a strange way to live your faith. Did anyone in their services died of strychnine poisoning?

This site...wow.

The colors are just blinding...but I think that's the first time I've seen any fundie outright state that "God does not reason."

Looks like I'll be reasoning in Hell then.

[apple1]

He's 21, not sure of her age. They have 4 kids and she is obviously pregnant again.

His mentor from WV just died, but they persist.

Tragic.

Since this thread has been revived, I was looking at her FB page again. Another baby was born (apparently preemie) in January and seems to be having a lot of GI problems. She mentions being happy about feeling much lighter after the baby was born and someone responds "don't get used to it, you'll be pregnant again soon" or some similar words.

So we have a very uneducated (very obvious from FB) at the most 20-ish woman married to a probably now 22 year old uneducated and at least periodically unemployed man who has already been bitten by rattlesnakes a few times.

This whole situation is not something I can snark about at all. I see it as a terrible tragedy that is moving downhill at a rather rapid rate and has 5 children caught up in the mess.

Actually, I will amend that to say 7 children in the mess, because I see it as children attempting to parent children.

This situation is going to make headlines again.

[HereticHick]

Another native Appalachian girl weighing in (hi, y'all) -- I'm from a Western North Carolina county that borders on Tennessee-- snake handlers & their churches (and moonshiners, car thiefs, etc.) historically have moved back and forth across our state line to evade law enforcement.

I want all of you "flatlanders" to remember that no matter how thrilling all this sounds, there are VERY VERY FEW snake handlers in Appalachia. They are a TINY marginalized, dirt poor, uneducated, little sect & always have been, and most of their neighbors find them just as strange as you do.

When I started university, my county was in the news because a local snake handler had just died from bites. It was so awkward as I met people!! ["Where are you from?" "Haywood County." "Oh, did you bring your rattlesnake box with you?" "No, but I see you brought all your Appalachian stereotypes with you." etc.]

A beloved story my father in law used to tell from his University of Tennesee teaching days--

A visiting European professor is teaching a zoology class. He asks the class to name the most likely places to find a rattlesnake. The answers: "Under a rock," "In a Woodpile," "Church"... the professor is mystified.

[apple1]

I want all of you "flatlanders" to remember that no matter how thrilling all this sounds, there are VERY VERY FEW snake handlers in Appalachia. They are a TINY marginalized, dirt poor, uneducated, little sect & always have been, and most of their neighbors find them just as strange as you do..

I, for one, understand that these people are quite the exceptions, not the rule. That doesn't reduce the tragedy of this one family's existence, in which children are caught up.

I found your tone quite condescending, even "handslapping"...

ETA ... I might be a "flatlander" (is that supposed to be an insult?), but I am only one generation removed from as rural as it gets in NE Tennessee ...

[HereticHick]

I am sorry you found my tone condescending, apple1, but yes, I DID intend a little handslapping. I am very glad that you understand that snake handlers are the exception, because I am not sure that everyone understands that they aren't. Maybe I am hypersensitive about some things, but I get really tired of folks treating ALL of Appalachia like its some exotic 19th-century backwater, devoid of the Internet and medical care, where every other person is a snakehandler/moonshiner/inbred cousin of Honey Boo Boo. We aren't, and you aren't either. And no, flatlander isn't an insult, it's just what mountain folks sometimes call non-mountain folks.

Snakehandling is a tragedy, especially since it so often goes hand in hand with distain for education, female subservience, and rejection of science. Having children in the presence of parents and relatives holding poisonous snakes who are WILLING to be bitten, and to refuse medical care and die if they are bitten, is, IMHO, child abuse. I hope the tradition of snakehandling completely dies out. It is not a mountain tradition that I want to celebrate, embrace, or preserve.

[apple1]

I just worry (maybe too much since I have never met this particular family) about the disaster-in-the-making when there are child-parents of 5 kids, the youngest 2 almost exactly 12 months apart (the 1 year old had her birthday the week the preemie was born), with a preemie with feeding problems, no education, no jobs, subsisting on the "safety net", apparently not believing in, or at least not using BC, not even breast-feeding (yes, I know it is NOT a guarantee, but many times, it does space pregancies at least somewhat).

And while snake handling is indeed rare, "fundies" that are barely subsisting, I suspect, are much more common than Botkin-type, even Duggar-type, fundie royalty. Somehow the royalty gets a lot more attention. Families like this one are actually where the rubber meets the road.

I so wish someone could convince this girl to get a GED, go on BC, etc...

[LilMissMetaphor]

distain for education

Disdain.

disdain (n.) mid-14c., desdegne "scorn, contempt," earlier dedeyne "offended dignity" (c.1300), from Old French desdeigne, from desdeignier (see disdain (v.)).

http://www.etymonline.com

[Mama Mia]

I am sorry you found my tone condescending, apple1, but yes, I DID intend a little handslapping. I am very glad that you understand that snake handlers are the exception, because I am not sure that everyone understands that they aren't. Maybe I am hypersensitive about some things, but I get really tired of folks treating ALL of Appalachia like its some exotic 19th-century backwater, devoid of the Internet and medical care, where every other person is a snakehandler/moonshiner/inbred cousin of Honey Boo Boo. We aren't, and you aren't either. And no, flatlander isn't an insult, it's just what mountain folks sometimes call non-mountain folks.

Snakehandling is a tragedy, especially since it so often goes hand in hand with distain for education, female subservience, and rejection of science. Having children in the presence of parents and relatives holding poisonous snakes who are WILLING to be bitten, and to refuse medical care and die if they are bitten, is, IMHO, child abuse. I hope the tradition of snakehandling completely dies out. It is not a mountain tradition that I want to celebrate, embrace, or preserve.

I'm sorry if my post came across as condescending. I do admit to finding the cultural differences fascinating, and do understand that of course these are broad generalizations and stereotypes. And that of course most people in that area aren't snake handlers etc. Just like everyone in my area isn't a gay hippie socialist with a weed farm. Just most of us 8-)

[Ex 2x2]

Another native Appalachian girl weighing in (hi, y'all) -- I'm from a Western North Carolina county that borders on Tennessee-- snake handlers & their churches (and moonshiners, car thiefs, etc.) historically have moved back and forth across our state line to evade law enforcement.

I want all of you "flatlanders" to remember that no matter how thrilling all this sounds, there are VERY VERY FEW snake handlers in Appalachia. They are a TINY marginalized, dirt poor, uneducated, little sect & always have been, and most of their neighbors find them just as strange as you do.

When I started university, my county was in the news because a local snake handler had just died from bites. It was so awkward as I met people!! ["Where are you from?" "Haywood County." "Oh, did you bring your rattlesnake box with you?" "No, but I see you brought all your Appalachian stereotypes with you." etc.]

A beloved story my father in law used to tell from his University of Tennesee teaching days--

A visiting European professor is teaching a zoology class. He asks the class to name the most likely places to find a rattlesnake. The answers: "Under a rock," "In a Woodpile," "Church"... the professor is mystified.

I'm pretty sure we all know not everyone from this area does this, and that in fact, most don't. That's why it's so fascinating. Obviously you've encountered negative comments about where you are from, but that didn't happen here. We are talking about snake handlers. Period. No handslapping needed!

[Ex 2x2]

Back to the topic at hand, I agree that there are concerns for this couple and their children. Fairly recently, she mentioned on her facebook that she wanted people to pray because she had to take the new baby in to get tested. People asked questions and she said the baby failed a test, and she thought it was for Down Syndrome. She seemed unsure though of what it was exactly. I haven't seen an update on it. A special needs child growing up in that environment would be very concerning.

[SomewhatFundy]

I just spent the last thirty minutes watching some videos of the snake handling. I'm.....puzzled. Even more so about how defeated the snakes look as these people fondle them all over the church floor.

I mean, here they are..... swinging these copperheads and rattlers over their shoulders, screaming in gibberish and dancing simultaneously. The snakes are just lying there like "please snake-Jesus, just rapture me already". Do they like, dose these snakes with Valium before playing with them in church? I honestly don't understand why the snakes aren't biting the crap out of them. They've got to be scared or something. These people should be dying in record numbers, not one pastor every couple of years.

I'm not much of an animal lover, but I feel kind of bad for the snakes. Hopefully they are making sure they are fed and stuff in between Sundays.....

[Ex 2x2]

I just spent the last thirty minutes watching some videos of the snake handling. I'm.....puzzled. Even more so about how defeated the snakes look as these people fondle them all over the church floor.

I mean, here they are..... swinging these copperheads and rattlers over their shoulders, screaming in gibberish and dancing simultaneously. The snakes are just lying there like "please snake-Jesus, just rapture me already". Do they like, dose these snakes with Valium before playing with them in church? I honestly don't understand why the snakes aren't biting the crap out of them. They've got to be scared or something. These people should be dying in record numbers, not one pastor every couple of years.

I'm not much of an animal lover, but I feel kind of bad for the snakes. Hopefully they are making sure they are fed and stuff in between Sundays.....

I felt really bad for the snakes too, and snakes freak me out. They just seemed so...docile I guess. Did you watch this one? http://youtu.be/J79ThhMuxWg

[Ex 2x2]

This one is also fascinating. http://youtu.be/v0IRXwsXYxs

[pixydust]

I just spent the last thirty minutes watching some videos of the snake handling. I'm.....puzzled. Even more so about how defeated the snakes look as these people fondle them all over the church floor.

I mean, here they are..... swinging these copperheads and rattlers over their shoulders, screaming in gibberish and dancing simultaneously. The snakes are just lying there like "please snake-Jesus, just rapture me already". Do they like, dose these snakes with Valium before playing with them in church? I honestly don't understand why the snakes aren't biting the crap out of them. They've got to be scared or something. These people should be dying in record numbers, not one pastor every couple of years.

I'm not much of an animal lover, but I feel kind of bad for the snakes. Hopefully they are making sure they are fed and stuff in between Sundays.....

They keep the snakes cold before hand. A snake needs to be kept at around 80 degrees, F, to be active and healthy. If you cool them down to about 62, they will be near hibernation and very slow and disoriented. Most likely they keep them warm during the week, so they can eat, and then the night before the handling start dropping the temps.