Snake Handlers also Fundie?

[apple1]

There are, and yes that's the reason. Here's a site that explains the laws: http://yeltsin.tripod.com/law/law.htm. However I don't think the laws are enforced since the practice has been on decline.

Turns out that is not exactly an unbiased site. The site owner is the brother of a guy who died at the age of 32 from religious snake handling. (OT - terrible site format and structure and a lot of links don't work)

So I take its info with a grain of salt.

As for people like the Hamblins - besides outright specific laws in TN about religious snake handling, there might be numerous other laws that could apply. Wildlife laws. Child protection/child endangerment laws. Etc etc.

[mirele]

Turns out that is not exactly an unbiased site. The site owner is the brother of a guy who died at the age of 32 from religious snake handling. (OT - terrible site format and structure and a lot of links don't work)

So I take its info with a grain of salt.

As for people like the Hamblins - besides outright specific laws in TN about religious snake handling, there might be numerous other laws that could apply. Wildlife laws. Child protection/child endangerment laws. Etc etc.

The article I referenced above mentioned that it's against the law to capture wild animals or keep poisonous snakes. I think the state could swoop in and take the snakes, but then they'd just go out and get more.

ETA: I wrote a post on my blog about this, if only to capture for posterity the picture of the young woman handling a snake: http://jsufyf.blogspot.com/2012/06/snake-handlers.html

[Mary Margaret]

Don't be sorry, that was really interesting to me. Do you have any book recommendations, specifically about the history of religion in Appalachia?

Ahh, after nine months of lurking I've finally been drawn out into the open! If there's one topic that I cannot resist, it's Appalachian Christianity.

I just finished my MA in history and wrote my thesis on the emergence of a distinctive regional religious tradition in antebellum Appalachia. I've also done work on contemporary Appalachian Christianity too. I've spent quite a lot of time in eastern Kentucky, though I'm not from the region, and I dearly care about Appalachian religion's present and past.

Raine is right; there's very little out there that takes a comprehensive look at Appalachia's religious history and McCauley is by far the best (though not without its flaws).

If you're interested in reading about handlers, I'd recommend Taking Up Serpents by David Kimbrough if you're looking for a non-academic account or Them that Believe by Ralph Hood and W. Paul Williamson for something more scholarly. Hood and Williamson are psychologists (I believe-- it's been a few months since I read the book), as are most of the academics who've written about handling. I don't think there's been a book written about handling that does it justice (and there have been many written), but these two probably comes the closest in their respective classes.

I actually really dislike Covington and Salvation on Sand Mountain. I find it voyeuristic and sensationalistic. As a group, Appalachian Studies scholars find Covington's treatment deeply problematic.

If you're interested in contemporary Appalachian Christianity, I'd start with Loyal Jones' Faith & Meaning in the Southern Uplands (1999) and then Foxfire 7, edited by Paul Gillespie (1982, so increasingly out of date, but still worth a read).

If there's another time period that interests you, I have other suggestions, though most of my primary source stuff will be limited to the years before the Civil War.

(And, hello, FJ! :) )

[apple1]

On a roll here. Looking back further in her FB pictures, she has a picture of his hand after a snake bite.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Ahh, after nine months of lurking I've finally been drawn out into the open! If there's one topic that I cannot resist, it's Appalachian Christianity.

I just finished my MA in history and wrote my thesis on the emergence of a distinctive regional religious tradition in antebellum Appalachia. I've also done work on contemporary Appalachian Christianity too. I've spent quite a lot of time in eastern Kentucky, though I'm not from the region, and I dearly care about Appalachian religion's present and past.

Raine is right; there's very little out there that takes a comprehensive look at Appalachia's religious history and McCauley is by far the best (though not without its flaws).

If you're interested in reading about handlers, I'd recommend Taking Up Serpents by David Kimbrough if you're looking for a non-academic account or Them that Believe by Ralph Hood and W. Paul Williamson for something more scholarly. Hood and Williamson are psychologists (I believe-- it's been a few months since I read the book), as are most of the academics who've written about handling. I don't think there's been a book written about handling that does it justice (and there have been many written), but these two probably comes the closest in their respective classes.

I actually really dislike Covington and Salvation on Sand Mountain. I find it voyeuristic and sensationalistic. As a group, Appalachian Studies scholars find Covington's treatment deeply problematic.

If you're interested in contemporary Appalachian Christianity, I'd start with Loyal Jones' Faith & Meaning in the Southern Uplands (1999) and then Foxfire 7, edited by Paul Gillespie (1982, so increasingly out of date, but still worth a read).

If there's another time period that interests you, I have other suggestions, though most of my primary source stuff will be limited to the years before the Civil War.

(And, hello, FJ! :) )

Welcome, fellow humanities nerd! :D This is fascinating. I'll have to check out "Them that Believe." After this thread started yesterday I tried to find some good anthropological research on snake handling but didn't have much luck.

I did find a documentary on YouTube from I believe the 60s called "Holy Ghost People" which mostly just filmed the services and interviewed people in the congregation.

[geniebelle6901]

I knew the history behind the website I referenced, and found funny that these people know they are breaking the law. As for Covington's book, I completely agree. The fact that he got caught up in snake handling while writing the book, makes me question his credibility. The true story behind "Salvation on Sand Mountain" was a bat-shit crazy, alcoholic, and habitual offender preacher who wanted his wife dead and wanted to make it look like a suicide so he could marry someone else. "Serpent and the Spirit" by Thomas Burton does a better job of covering the Glenn Summerford story. It's available on Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Serpent-And-The-S ... 1572332468.

I agree that Andrew Hamblin is a tragic figure. It wouldn't surprise me if he died of a snake bite...leaving behind a wife and kids. Hopefully the USA Today article will prompt law enforcement to intervene before, but that's probably wishful thinking.

ETA: Hit "Submit" too soon.

[apple1]

I knew the history behind the website I referenced, and found funny that these people know they are breaking the law.

In their minds - fifty dollar fine vs. breaking what they believe to be God's law (along with seeing themselves as the only ones in possession of "GOD'S TRUTH") - no brainer.

Natural consequences seem to not be considered.

And there are laws about child endangering that could come into significant play. CPS, anyone?

[contrary]

first sentence of that holiness website:

TAKE MY OPINIONS WITH A GRAIN ASSAULT

eta: while I certainly see all points about the presence of children in proximity to these poisonous snakes, is it really, TECHNICALLY, legally any different than allowing them to walk in the woods of a region known to have rattlers?

[contrary]

As she who recommended the covington book, I will say that it was a fascinating read. It is also, however, the only book of its kind that I've read, so I have no background knowledge or basis for comparison.

It was an absorbing read, though i can see how it's accuracy and integrity are less-than.

I'm now off to see if i can find the Burton book for kindle!

[geniebelle6901]

And there are laws about child endangering that could come into significant play. CPS, anyone?

This should be a no-brainer, and IMO a child being in the same room with venomous snakes is child endangerment. I think the problem here is lack of resources.

[Mary Margaret]

Covington's book is certainly engrossing, there's no denying that! My first read through it didn't really bother me, but the more I read about handling the more I was bothered by him and his presentation of handlers and handling. For what it is, Salvation on Sand Mountain is not a bad book. But it's not about snake handling, imo. The handlers--and Appalachian people generally--seem to serve more like set dressing for Covington's journey of personal discovery than as real, breathing people.

Geniebelle, I was also bothered by his handling in the book, though for different reasons, it seems. I don't object to handling on principle. I feel really strongly that it is a legitimate religious tradition and that practicing it doesn't make an individual crazy or something. What bothered me most was that I question Covington's motives in deciding to handle and I also object to how he handled his fallout with Brown afterwards.

Sorry. This stuff is kind of my hobby horse. :oops: I promise I talk about other things too! And thanks for the welcome, OnceModestTwiceShy!

Off to some other thread I wander...

[geniebelle6901]

And to think the book came about because of an attempted murder trial that really had nothing to do with the church or snake handling, other than the snakes being the weapon of choice. As I said before, media from all over descended on Scottsboro, AL. By the time the trial was over, the people of Scottsboro and Jackson County, AL were ready to run every single one of them out of town. Well, maybe not the local media. They knew better than to piss off a huge chunk of their viewers and readers.

[contrary]

For what it is, Salvation on Sand Mountain is not a bad book. But it's not about snake handling, imo. The handlers--and Appalachian people generally--seem to serve more like set dressing for Covington's journey of personal discovery...

totally true. I didn't read it, even the first time, as an unbiased account. He admits many times in the book that his family had a history/he has a connection to the culture and the people that impacted him.

[Not That Kind of Dr]

I can see the appeal, outside any spiritual fulfillment, of serpent handling for Andrew Hamblin. He gets to be a pastor of a congregation, after all, and in what other context would a lightly educated, relatively poor twenty-one-year-old man get to exercise that kind of authority and receive that kind of respect?

[emmiedahl]

first sentence of that holiness website:

TAKE MY OPINIONS WITH A GRAIN ASSAULT

eta: while I certainly see all points about the presence of children in proximity to these poisonous snakes, is it really, TECHNICALLY, legally any different than allowing them to walk in the woods of a region known to have rattlers?

A snake confined in a small area and handled by humans will be very agitated. If you come on them in the wild, they usually move, or warn you in some way to move away. I grew up playing at my grandparents' house in the mountains, and there were rattlesnakes everywhere. They are not aggressive unless they feel threatened. I imagine this whole debacle makes them feel threatened. If they get free, they are going to hightail it out of there and bite everything in their path.

[contrary]

ah. gotcha.

i mean, the danger is clear, and i wouldn't let my own children within a thousand feet of a snake handling event...but i had not thought of the snake's potential change in behavior due to its surroundings.

[emmiedahl]

I don't know if this is true for every type of snake they handle, but I am very familiar with rattlesnake behavior. :) I used to run around in mountains that had them under every rock and never was bitten. When you hear that tsch-tsch-tsch, you need to stop moving, figure out quickly where the snake is, and then move slowly in the opposite direction. They are terrified of people, so they will not force a confrontation unless you are.

[JMarie]

Anderson Cooper just did a segment about snake handlers tonight. Well, Anderson didn't trek down to Tennessee and West Virginia, someone else did. The segment discussed the handler who recently died from a snake bite, as well as interviewing Andrew Hamlin. Hamlin's attitude was that everyone has to die from something, and besides, he's already been bitten four times in the past two years.

Anderson had no comment.

[dorothybaez]

I have so many problems with this. I doubt the snakes are caught and kept humanely. I don't think they have the experience or the facilities to adequately contain them,

Actually, they don't keep the snakes permanently. Since snakes aren't typically handled at every meeting, they are caught and then released after maybe a week. The cages you see the snakes in are not meant to be permanent.

That being said, since these churches are congregationally governed, your mileage may vary.

[NjoyingNsanity]

I guess I'm the rare oddball that has actually been to one of these churches. I live in rural southwest Virginia right in the heart of Appalachia and the Blue Ridge Mountains. My hometown is small but not so small as to be insular and suspicious of outsiders. However there are many communities not far from where I live that are. My dad's ex was from one such community and her parents attended a snake handling church, a small bit of info she didn't see as being relevant when insisting we attend her family reunion. The reunion was supposed to be on the church grounds after church so we went to church with them. I had pretty much the same reaction as someone in an old song about accidently attending a snake handling church did.

Pastor- Don't you believe?

Person - Yes I believe, I believe I'll leave.

Pastor goes to hand person a big ol' rattler

Person - Where do you want the new door because I'm about to make you one.

The other really weird thing was the had the reunion in the church graveyard yeah they just spread out a blanket and had a picnic setting on top of the resting place of their dearly departed.

[debrand]

He hadn’t much hope for churches in West Virginia, where serpent handling is legal. Some surrounding states, including Tennessee and North Carolina, have outlawed it. He had his eyes on a Baptist church near Marion, North Carolina, where, he said, “there’s been crowds coming†and its leaders wanted to introduce serpent handling, the law be damned.

Apparently, in West Virginia, where this practice is legal, snake handling is dying out. My guess is that making it legal also shines light on the practice and takes away some of its mystique. Also, it's hard to deny or keep hidden the fact that some Christians-who obviously have faith- die because of handling snakes.

My opinion is that it should be legal for consenting adults but regulated. Anyone who endangers a child by letting them get too close should have that child removed. Legalization would also ensure that the animals be treated well.

I saw an interview with an older pastor who handled snakes. He called a particular snake his pet so I wonder if some of these people grow fond of the animals. Is that possible? Maybe if a particular snake is well fed and used to handling it will be less likely to bite? Can any snake experts explain if that is possible?

[debrand]

I guess I'm the rare oddball that has actually been to one of these churches. I live in rural southwest Virginia right in the heart of Appalachia and the Blue Ridge Mountains. My hometown is small but not so small as to be insular and suspicious of outsiders. However there are many communities not far from where I live that are. My dad's ex was from one such community and her parents attended a snake handling church, a small bit of info she didn't see as being relevant when insisting we attend her family reunion. The reunion was supposed to be on the church grounds after church so we went to church with them. I had pretty much the same reaction as someone in an old song about accidently attending a snake handling church did.

Pastor- Don't you believe?

Person - Yes I believe, I believe I'll leave.

Pastor goes to hand person a big ol' rattler

Person - Where do you want the new door because I'm about to make you one.

The other really weird thing was the had the reunion in the church graveyard yeah they just spread out a blanket and had a picnic setting on top of the resting place of their dearly departed.

I would LOVE to go to one of these churches. Not to mock the congregation, just for the experience. If children aren't involved, it sounds very fascinating.

[dorothybaez]

Maybe if a particular snake is well fed and used to handling it will be less likely to bite? Can any snake experts explain if that is possible?

I wouldn't call my self an "expert,"I but for a while years ago my husband and I took in neglected/unwanted "pet" snakes, got them healthy and then found homes for them.

I always found it to be pretty straightforward and simple to re tame them. Notice I didn't say easy.

You have to remember though, that reptiles are wild animals and always will be. I know a guy who almost died from a rattler bite, and even non poisonous snakes will bite.

[gustava]

I guess I'm the rare oddball that has actually been to one of these churches. I live in rural southwest Virginia right in the heart of Appalachia and the Blue Ridge Mountains. My hometown is small but not so small as to be insular and suspicious of outsiders. However there are many communities not far from where I live that are. My dad's ex was from one such community and her parents attended a snake handling church, a small bit of info she didn't see as being relevant when insisting we attend her family reunion. The reunion was supposed to be on the church grounds after church so we went to church with them. I had pretty much the same reaction as someone in an old song about accidently attending a snake handling church did.

Pastor- Don't you believe?

Person - Yes I believe, I believe I'll leave.

Pastor goes to hand person a big ol' rattler

Person - Where do you want the new door because I'm about to make you one.

The other really weird thing was the had the reunion in the church graveyard yeah they just spread out a blanket and had a picnic setting on top of the resting place of their dearly departed.

Just pm'd you.

[Witsec7]

I guess I'm the rare oddball that has actually been to one of these churches. I live in rural southwest Virginia right in the heart of Appalachia and the Blue Ridge Mountains. My hometown is small but not so small as to be insular and suspicious of outsiders. However there are many communities not far from where I live that are. My dad's ex was from one such community and her parents attended a snake handling church, a small bit of info she didn't see as being relevant when insisting we attend her family reunion. The reunion was supposed to be on the church grounds after church so we went to church with them. I had pretty much the same reaction as someone in an old song about accidently attending a snake handling church did.

Pastor- Don't you believe?

Person - Yes I believe, I believe I'll leave.

Pastor goes to hand person a big ol' rattler

Person - Where do you want the new door because I'm about to make you one.

The other really weird thing was the had the reunion in the church graveyard yeah they just spread out a blanket and had a picnic setting on top of the resting place of their dearly departed.

I actually took some vacations so I could visit some Church of the Signs. I'm a skeptic, but what I saw amazed me and I have no way to explain any of it. I'm completely fascinated by it.