Somehow I doubt she's an expert on this...

[penguinagogo]

i am not an expert in this

but my mother grew up stunted by poverty and insufficient food

and of course as the eldest was expected to give food to the babies and defer to her brothers. lots of stories about sneaking, stealing and hoarding from her childhood

she was determined not to do the same to us

although money was tight when we were children my parents went to all sorts of shifts to make sure we got a balanced nutritious diet with lots of veg etc eg growing veg, protien from snared rabbits, poached fish, æots of cheap pulses

but her insecurity manifest itself as insisting we ate, very strict rules, for she was fearful of us not reciving enough protien etc and not growing, or going to bed hungry like she had

and my sister and i now are overweight (not obese but greater than we should be)

i noticed recently i keep her rules almost unconsciouly, im a good girl, i clear my plate without thinking of it, even if im not hungry. my husband has no weight issues but watching him he eats well but stops when hes full, responds to his own hunger cues rather than social ones. Its not in any way to blame my problems on my mother - ive been an adult for a long time but since realising the unconscious cues and behaviour that helps me overeat ive been able to change things and lose some weight. and am trying not to impose the same patterns on my kid

perhaps moderately irrelevant to the debate but i think what im trying to illustrate is how deep it goes and how unconscious the attitudes we imbibe are- from the mother described who starves her daughter as she doesnt like to see a 'greedy girl' to the child in the OP whos struggling with food and security issues. Its terribly tragic that these self rightous buffoons cant develop some empathy, put themselves in the shoes of this poor girl and try and come up with a way of making her feel reassured and secure, and hopefully defuse the issues shes having and allow her to develop a non disorderd relationship with food. Because as far as I can see they are probably going about the issue in the worst way possible and will perpetuate any problem

[Patsy]

perhaps moderately irrelevant to the debate but i think what im trying to illustrate is how deep it goes and how unconscious the attitudes we imbibe are

Absolutely agree. Even those who try find it difficult not to partially pass on their disordered thinking and food behaviour issues. It really bothers me that parents of children with such trauma about nutrition wouldn't even try in the first place.

[SoybeanQueen]

I doubt she's an expert, too, because if you read a book on the subject, imposing strict limits isn't the way to handle food issues that stem from neglect. I do want to say, though, that if you haven't dealt with neglect-related food issues in a child, it is alarming and can be worse than you would imagine. My son will say he's hungry literally all of the time. While he's eating one meal, he wants to discuss what we're having for the next meal, when it will happen, and what we'll have for a snack in between. He asks for seconds before he finishes the first bite of his firsts. He sneaks out of his room at night (after a full dinner. The kid is not starved by any stretch of the imagination) to steal food. Once, he at an entire loaf of bread during the night. He's 5.

She's whack for the way she's handling it, but if her child was neglected early in life, it's probably far more than just normal growth spurt hunger.

[grateful1230]

I'm no expert, and I admit I have not read a single book on the subject. However, I am raising 3 boys that eat like food may disappear from the earth at any moment. My solution is one that arose of needs. I was still in high school when my oldest nephew came to live with me, and 21 when I had my son (and my second nephew). We were completely broke and dependant on my waitress salary and the WIC i was getting for the little 2. I never bought junk food because we flat out didn't have the money for it. Produce and veggie stands are rampant here, and it was/still is MUCH cheaper to feed the neverending hungry monsters with fruit. They don't seem to be hurting..all 3 are tall and thin, and grow out of their clothes and shoes on a nightly basis. I don't remember ever telling anyone no to food, unless it was while i was cooking (that is the perfect time for a snack, you know). I am still listening to the sounds of little feet going to the kitchen in the middle of the night for snacks tho. This month they've been obsessed with oatmeal and peaches. As someone above said, we also have the rule of "if you ate the last of ___, put it on the list". Mom's not a psychic.

[Koala]

Rachel:

I do tell my 4-year-old that it's not healthy to eat too much, and eating too much could make her fat.

Lori's reply:

That is so sad Rachel. I know heavy people are miserable and hate to be that way. Trying to train your children correct eating patterns when they are young just seems right to me. " Train a child in the way he shall go and when he grows up, he will not depart from it."

:angry-steamingears:

[Koala]

Emily:

I just wanted to add that when you have a larger sized family this inevitably is brought up during table manners b/c one must not be greedy in taking too much food thus not considering there is a crowd to feed. Just another benefit to having MANY children. :D There just isn't room for selfishness/overindulgence and this is learned very young.

Maybe Emily should stop being so selfish and overindulging herself by having more kids than she can easily feed.

[Seven Severn]

I doubt she's an expert, too, because if you read a book on the subject, imposing strict limits isn't the way to handle food issues that stem from neglect. I do want to say, though, that if you haven't dealt with neglect-related food issues in a child, it is alarming and can be worse than you would imagine. My son will say he's hungry literally all of the time. While he's eating one meal, he wants to discuss what we're having for the next meal, when it will happen, and what we'll have for a snack in between. He asks for seconds before he finishes the first bite of his firsts. He sneaks out of his room at night (after a full dinner. The kid is not starved by any stretch of the imagination) to steal food. Once, he at an entire loaf of bread during the night. He's 5.

She's whack for the way she's handling it, but if her child was neglected early in life, it's probably far more than just normal growth spurt hunger.

Have you heard of Prader-Willi Syndrome? It's a genetic condition in which the brain is constantly relaying the message that it's hungry. There are other things associated with it, too, but constant, uncontrollable hunger is the primary factor.

[constantgardener]

I have almost the opposite problem with my eldest son - he just won't eat. He is nearly 8 but very small and underweight for his age (still wears some age 3-4 clothes as he is so skinnny). He has always seemed to find it incredibly difficult to sit at a table and enjoy eating. He even used to fall asleep breastfeeding as a baby! He is a very 'busy' boy and I think meals just bore him. The only times he eats well are if we eat out (because he can 'people-watch' and distract himself) or if I let him eat in front of the TV, which I hate doing but sometimes resort to just to get some food into him. We recently found out he has a lactose intolerance too which makes it even harder because he does like milk. I just hope for the day when he turns into one of these fridge-raiding teenagers!

[chaotic life]

Children with food insecurity and significant starvation in their history, in particular children from international adoption situations, often cannot self regulate food when they are adopted. NO reputable therapist will EVER tell you to limit their food. If you limit their food, they won't work through the issue, but will get significantly worse. However, if you have not lived with a child suffering from this, you cannot imgaine how distrubing and frustrating the behavior can be.

I cannot count the number of adoptive parents I have watched decide that extreme control of the diet is the appropriate response to the problem. The ONLY time food should be controlled a child coming out of immediate, active starvation where overeating will cause significant medical problems. Even then, it should be overseen by medical professionals. These same parents who are so obssessively controlling about their adoptive children's food consumption are also often dramatically low-balling the calories and food that these children require to recover from the long-term depravity.

My normal response is to follow the advice of the experts on this issue. Provide the child with their own hoard of non-perishable food they can keep with them at all times, so they have food security. Let them eat, even if they eat until they puke. It won't take that long that they will learn that the puking is unpleasant and will slow down.

I had ONE child with significant eating issues who was frequently eating until he puked. When he would get emotional, he would eat even more to fill emotions that he could not handle. He never got fat, but I became seriously concerned when the gorging until puking was happening nearly ever dinnertime. For one BRIEF moment, I considered controlling his portions to stop the vomitting. Instead, I reminded myself of everything I believe in with these kids and tried something different.

I began to give this child a small salad plate with his meal on it. I deliberately gave him approximately half of what I *thought* was his requirement to be full for the meal in a first serving on the very small plate so it LOOKED overflowing and full. With each additional serving he would request of food, I would decrease the portion size. It would take three servings for him to consume what I had estimated was the appropriate amount for that mean. If he went for a fourth serving, he was still only slightly more than what I estimated he truly needed. However, from his psychological viewpoint, he had been served four servings, the first two large, and had eaten and eaten and eaten into a stupor. This way, if he was truly hungry, then I never told him no or denied him food. It gave him the chance to feel emotionally full. If on occasion he still ate the point of puking, it wasn't happening nearly as often and became a rare occurance.

Today, I only have to use this trick for this child for awhile after that. However, if he gets under high stress or strong emotions, he will revert back to those eating habits. These days he and I TALK about it because he is older. When he's feeling so emotional and wanting to emotionally eat, I don't tell him no. I offer him strong comfort foods, and I let him decide how far he wants to go. He rarely eats to puking anymore. The last time he did was last summer under extreme stress while I was in the hospital with a sibling and I forgot to warn his caregiver he might do it, so she didn't know to help him pace his eating slowly for fear of that outcome from emotional eating.

The problem is that most of these people are obssessed that these kids are gorging and will get FAT. Heaven forbid, but I really think that given what these kids have endured being FAT might be the least of these kids concerns. I would rather my children have their emotional needs met, their nutirtional needs met, and work through the struggles themselves to learn SELF CONTROL than to have me perpetruate the food insecurity and cause their problems to be worse. Anyway, the research very clearly shows that teaching them self regulation will make them far less likely to be fat in the long-term, and perpetuating the food insecurity will create emotional over-eaters who will struggle for their lifetimes with it.

[mockingbird]

The comment from Rachel is really sad (as is Lori's reply).

I was a kid who had a lot of trouble gaining weight/keeping it on. My brother is the same way (still, as a teen) and to make it worse, he has ADD and the medication he's on decreases his appetite. We were definitely raised with the grazing mentality. Before he started his medication my brother used to be a huge eater while I've always been the type of person who can't eat a lot at once but will come back later. I still need to eat snacks as an adult. My parents also gave us things like Boost and Carnation Instant Breakfast growing up just to get some extra calories in. (I honestly didn't mind the taste of Boost, lol.) Also, if either of us ever requested a certain food, no matter how "bad" it was our parents would buy it because that would mean we'd eat it which was the goal. My mom always keeps a stock of a certain brand of chocolate chip cookies because those are the only cookies my brother will eat and he is really picky about snack foods in general, but needs to be encouraged to eat so he doesn't lose weight.

My sister (younger teen than my brother) has more of a "normal" metabolism and she eats more than either my brother or I. I think my parents try to keep things equal but they don't let her drink the Carnation milkshakes or things like that and if she is really hungry my parents try to encourage her to eat healthy options. Like they will ask her to only eat a certain portion of cookies but if she wants something else for a snack after that they have other healthy snacks. I and my brother also had/have the same limits on "junk" food but the difference is we'd usually stop after the 4 Oreos and my sister wants 8 more. IMO that was a good balance growing up between not villianizing certain foods and still encouraging a balance of healthy foods. (I've noticed that when I have a candy jar out in my apartment I'm usually able to stop myself from eating a ton at once which is good and maybe reflects that.) My mom told me she thinks my sister is doing fine because she is pretty active in tae kwon do so it balances out and she is still growing.

[dairyfreelife]

Children with food insecurity and significant starvation in their history, in particular children from international adoption situations, often cannot self regulate food when they are adopted. NO reputable therapist will EVER tell you to limit their food. If you limit their food, they won't work through the issue, but will get significantly worse. However, if you have not lived with a child suffering from this, you cannot imgaine how distrubing and frustrating the behavior can be.

I cannot count the number of adoptive parents I have watched decide that extreme control of the diet is the appropriate response to the problem. The ONLY time food should be controlled a child coming out of immediate, active starvation where overeating will cause significant medical problems. Even then, it should be overseen by medical professionals. These same parents who are so obssessively controlling about their adoptive children's food consumption are also often dramatically low-balling the calories and food that these children require to recover from the long-term depravity.

My normal response is to follow the advice of the experts on this issue. Provide the child with their own hoard of non-perishable food they can keep with them at all times, so they have food security. Let them eat, even if they eat until they puke. It won't take that long that they will learn that the puking is unpleasant and will slow down.

I had ONE child with significant eating issues who was frequently eating until he puked. When he would get emotional, he would eat even more to fill emotions that he could not handle. He never got fat, but I became seriously concerned when the gorging until puking was happening nearly ever dinnertime. For one BRIEF moment, I considered controlling his portions to stop the vomitting. Instead, I reminded myself of everything I believe in with these kids and tried something different.

I began to give this child a small salad plate with his meal on it. I deliberately gave him approximately half of what I *thought* was his requirement to be full for the meal in a first serving on the very small plate so it LOOKED overflowing and full. With each additional serving he would request of food, I would decrease the portion size. It would take three servings for him to consume what I had estimated was the appropriate amount for that mean. If he went for a fourth serving, he was still only slightly more than what I estimated he truly needed. However, from his psychological viewpoint, he had been served four servings, the first two large, and had eaten and eaten and eaten into a stupor. This way, if he was truly hungry, then I never told him no or denied him food. It gave him the chance to feel emotionally full. If on occasion he still ate the point of puking, it wasn't happening nearly as often and became a rare occurance.

Today, I only have to use this trick for this child for awhile after that. However, if he gets under high stress or strong emotions, he will revert back to those eating habits. These days he and I TALK about it because he is older. When he's feeling so emotional and wanting to emotionally eat, I don't tell him no. I offer him strong comfort foods, and I let him decide how far he wants to go. He rarely eats to puking anymore. The last time he did was last summer under extreme stress while I was in the hospital with a sibling and I forgot to warn his caregiver he might do it, so she didn't know to help him pace his eating slowly for fear of that outcome from emotional eating.

The problem is that most of these people are obssessed that these kids are gorging and will get FAT. Heaven forbid, but I really think that given what these kids have endured being FAT might be the least of these kids concerns. I would rather my children have their emotional needs met, their nutirtional needs met, and work through the struggles themselves to learn SELF CONTROL than to have me perpetruate the food insecurity and cause their problems to be worse. Anyway, the research very clearly shows that teaching them self regulation will make them far less likely to be fat in the long-term, and perpetuating the food insecurity will create emotional over-eaters who will struggle for their lifetimes with it.

This.

I know my cousin did the same (eating until she made herself sick) and with therapy and a doctor they worked to help HER (the child) work to learn her own food cues (hungry/full) and realize she was always going to have food. Telling an adopted to not eat with food insecurity issues is a problem. Taking food away won't help. They need to help the child feel secure and the child has to learn their own self-control. The child won't get "fat" that fast. I also wonder if the lack of self-control is a problem too. That children should be obedient and controlled and these children aren't there yet.

[SoybeanQueen]

Have you heard of Prader-Willi Syndrome? It's a genetic condition in which the brain is constantly relaying the message that it's hungry. There are other things associated with it, too, but constant, uncontrollable hunger is the primary factor.

I'll look into that, thank you. My son was neglected in infancy by his biological parents, though, and his therapist and doctors have been working at this as a lingering effect of the abuse. It's my understand that neglect even for very small babies causes their brains to become hard-wired to expect food to be unavailable. I have a friend who was neglected as a child, and she said she still has to talk herself out of buying irrational amounts of food when she shops. The desire is still there, but she is able to control it.