Is there a difference? (prolife question)

[BelieveinScience]

I'm not sure if this is in the right spot or not so if it needs to be moved it can.

On another forum I post on someone posted about how they know someone who works at Planned Parenthood and several months ago a woman came into get an abortion there. The woman had an abortion and a couple months later came in because she wasn't feeling right and it turns out she's 30ish weeks pregnant and she was really pregnant with twins and they only aborted one of them. The poster posed the question of if it would be okay for this woman to abort at 30weeks since she didn't want the child.(I don't buy this story but lets just pretend it's real)

All the posters said No that it woudln't be okay for her to abort since the baby can live outside the womb. One woman even said "life is sacred"

That same day I had watched Dr Phil and they had an episode of a woman with two kids who were severely disabled (blind, g tube fed, mental retardation, etc..) and she wanted to euthanize them because she felt like they were suffering. So I posed the question of if it would be okay to euthanize children if they are disabled and the woman who wen't on about how life is sacred started talking about how euthanasia is okay to do.

Is there a difference between, in a prolife mindset, of "murdering" a fetus versus ending the life of a disabled person?

[emmiedahl]

It's a hard thing, and I firmly believe that all women will make the right choice.

Seriously, every pro-lifer seems to know someone who works at PP who is soooo willing to share confidential details with them. If I worked at PP, I would not be friends with anti-choice people nor do I expect they would want to be friends with me. And I certainly would not share about some of our more controversial cases.

In most states, late term abortion is illegal or impossible to access. I have a hard time believing all these women are having elective late term abortions when no abortion is even available to them.

[keeperrox]

First, I don't believe the first story, so I'm not even going to comment.

That same day I had watched Dr Phil and they had an episode of a woman with two kids who were severely disabled (blind, g tube fed, mental retardation, etc..) and she wanted to euthanize them because she felt like they were suffering. So I posed the question of if it would be okay to euthanize children if they are disabled and the woman who wen't on about how life is sacred started talking about how euthanasia is okay to do.

Is there a difference between, in a prolife mindset, of "murdering" a fetus versus ending the life of a disabled person?

As to the second story, no, it absolutely would not be okay to euthanize a disabled child. I am pro-choice because when it's in a woman's body, it's her choice. After birth, she can no longer make the decision to end a viable life.

BTW, most people here aren't going to take your bait, so don't hold your breath waiting for an all out war.

ETA: Quote in case someone gets an itchy delete finger.

[BelieveinScience]

First, I don't believe the first story, so I'm not even going to comment.

As to the second story, no, it absolutely would not be okay to euthanize a disabled child. I am pro-choice because when it's in a woman's body, it's her choice. After birth, she can no longer make that decision.

BTW, most people here aren't going to take your bait, so don't hold your breath waiting for an all out war.

What bait? I'm trying to understand the logic between why a prolife person would say one is okay to do but not the other especially since they flat out said "life is sacred"

And I don't buy the first story either and the poster got mad when I told her so.

[Boogalou]

Wait, did the poster say "no life is sacred" or "life is sacred"? I think there is either a typo in your first or second post. And now I am confused!

[BelieveinScience]

Wait, did the poster say "no life is sacred" or "life is sacred"? I think there is either a typo in your first or second post. And now I am confused!

Oh oops! I meant "life is sacred". Sorry to confuse you!

[keeperrox]

What bait? I'm trying to understand the logic between why a prolife person would say one is okay to do but not the other especially since they flat out said "life is sacred"

And I don't buy the first story either and the poster got mad when I told her so.

What bait? You asked if there is a difference between abortion and euthanizing a disabled child. You can't be that stupid.

[emmiedahl]

Life *is* sacred, to the point that we have to have the right to consider ourselves first when making health decisions. I believe life is sacred and that is why I am pro-choice.

keeperrox, I think the OP has been firmly pro-choice in other posts. I'm not handslapping and I can see why this post would be concerning, but I am personally giving her the benefit of the doubt.

[BelieveinScience]

What bait? You asked if there is a difference between abortion and euthanizing a disabled child. You can't be that stupid.

Yeah in the prolife mind set. Because I don't get why someone who said life is sacred someone wanted a 30 week abortion is in an uproar about it but someone wants to euthanize their disabled kid they think its a-okay. I'm just trying try why a prolife person would weigh the two lives differently.

[BelieveinScience]

Life *is* sacred, to the point that we have to have the right to consider ourselves first when making health decisions. I believe life is sacred and that is why I am pro-choice.

keeperrox, I think the OP has been firmly pro-choice in other posts. I'm not handslapping and I can see why this post would be concerning, but I am personally giving her the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, I'm very much pro choice.

[keeperrox]

keeperrox, I think the OP has been firmly pro-choice in other posts. I'm not handslapping and I can see why this post would be concerning, but I am personally giving her the benefit of the doubt.

Trust me, I'm the first one to call out handslapping, and I don't get that from your post. However, the OP asked if there is a difference between abortion and murdering a living, breathing, disabled child. That's baiting bullshit if I've ever seen it, regardless of whether they are asking from a "pro-life" mindset or not.

[Boogalou]

Oh oops! I meant "life is sacred". Sorry to confuse you!

Ok, thanks. That makes more sense!

I don't think you could ever really talk about a "pro life mindset" because there are a variety of views within that one camp. Everything from birth control = murder to abortion is ok in cases of rape or incest. However, I think that the pro-life poster you were talking to is in the minority. I think that very few pro life people would be in favour of euthanasia of anybody. I am actually pretty surprised that someone who is pro-life would even believe that.

[emmiedahl]

Personally, I think that euthanizing someone without knowing their will could be anti-choice in a way, because one is making decisions for another human being's body. This is speaking in broad generalities, and there are so many gray areas when you are talking about suffering children who have never had to ability to speak for themselves. I know of a child who lost his battle with cancer because there were two recurrences and on the second one, he said he did not want to fight anymore. That was his choice and he was able to make it, and he was old enough to know the consequences which obviously were death. When a child cannot speak for themselves, it becomes very complicated. Euthanasia is not legal in the US, which is an important point to consider. In countries where it is legal, there is immense infrastructure and procedures that are followed.

But this cannot be confused with whether a person should be required to sacrifice for another. Pregnancy is a sacrifice with immense physical, emotional and social complications, and every woman deserves to make this decision alone. Like the child with constantly recurring cancer, only they know what they can take and how much they are willing to sacrifice.

There was a time when I was what I call "baby pro-choice". That is, I knew on a deep level that we deserve bodily autonomy, but I had a hard time with the naive, destructive idea that I could determine what is the right choice for other people. It's important to get over that, and I am glad that so many people pointed out the logical inconsistencies and pure hubris that were muddying the picture. It's very clear when you get to the heart of it: My body, my choice. It's not just a slogan, but a statement of exactly how sacred life is.

[pixydust]

I have never met a person who was pro-choice and also pro-euthanasia, so I have a feeling that this woman on the other forum is a pot-stirrer.

[deelaem]

Trust me, I'm the first one to call out handslapping, and I don't get that from your post. However, the OP asked if there is a difference between abortion and murdering a living, breathing, disabled child. That's baiting bullshit if I've ever seen it, regardless of whether they are asking from a "pro-life" mindset or not.

I think you're way over-reacting. Some of us here don't think euthanasia is murder. We also don't think abortion is murder. I don't think it's fair to pigeon-hole people that way.

[keeperrox]

I think you're way over-reacting. Some of us here don't think euthanasia is murder. We also don't think abortion is murder. I don't think it's fair to pigeon-hole people that way.

Fair enough, but I still think asking if killing euthanizing a disabled child is different than abortion is absolute and utter bullshit and meant to stir the pot. As soon as you expect people to put a parent's decision to end the life of a living, breathing, self-sustained child into the equation it cheapens the pro-choice stance.

.....

Edit: never mind... that part wasn't worth it.

[deelaem]

Just as an aside, I did a bit of research on the mother from Dr. Phil show. Her disabled children are in their 40's, so therefore not children.

[AmeliaM]

I have never met a person who was pro-choice and also pro-euthanasia, so I have a feeling that this woman on the other forum is a pot-stirrer.

Pro-life and anti-euthanasia here - sorry I can't help with your understanding of alternative views but agreeing with the above.

[keeperrox]

Just as an aside, I did a bit of research on the mother from Dr. Phil show. Her disabled children are in their 40's, so therefore not children.

Okay then, I'll amend my statement:

As soon as you expect people to put a parent's decision to end the life of a living, breathing, self-sustained person into the equation it cheapens the pro-choice stance.

[lilwriter85]

It's a hard thing, and I firmly believe that all women will make the right choice.

Seriously, every pro-lifer seems to know someone who works at PP who is soooo willing to share confidential details with them. If I worked at PP, I would not be friends with anti-choice people nor do I expect they would want to be friends with me. And I certainly would not share about some of our more controversial cases.

In most states, late term abortion is illegal or impossible to access. I have a hard time believing all these women are having elective late term abortions when no abortion is even available to them.

This. I wouldn't either. I have a friend who worked as an administrator at a PP center and abortion clinic in the city I live in. She worked at those places in the late 90's and early 2000's. Some of her anti-choice friends and relatives knew she worked there but they never really asked her about her workplaces. She now works as an administrator for a nursing home facility and she doesn't tell anyone there about her previous jobs. She told me several months ago about her past work history after the topic of abortion came up in a conversation. She didn't give me deep details on cases and I didn't. ,She just told me about cases in which women from smaller towns and smaller cities had to travel to get to the abortion clinic because they weren't providers in their communities. She said that she dealt with protesters here and there and the clinic employed security guards to watch over the clinic 24/7. The security guards would catch people trying to vandalize often after hours.

[bananacat]

There's a big difference between aborting a pregnancy and euthanizing a disabled child. In one case, it's inside of my body and in the other case it isn't.

But yeah, it's amazing how everyone who is anti-abortion just happens to know a friend of a friend that experienced these ridiculous stories. It sounds like this person was lying, big surprise there.

[Maul the Koala]

There's a big difference between aborting a pregnancy and euthanizing a disabled child. In one case, it's inside of my body and in the other case it isn't.

But yeah, it's amazing how everyone who is anti-abortion just happens to know a friend of a friend that experienced these ridiculous stories. It sounds like this person was lying, big surprise there.

They're aborting babies after birth too dontcha know. :roll: I'm not shocked that the pro-life movement relies on hyperbole and half truths.

I think I know the disabled children case too. Is that the one where they were healthy and they had a degenerative disorder that started to manifest itself around age 6 or 7? This sounds awful but I hope they aren't conscious of what is happening. I've met people who were trapped inside their own minds, unable to communicate with the outside world. They've told me that it is utter hell. I don't wish that on anyone. Thankfully the people I knew recovered from their brain injuries but they were so very lucky. Not many people are that lucky.

[snarkbillie]

I have never met a person who was pro-choice and also pro-euthanasia, so I have a feeling that this woman on the other forum is a pot-stirrer.

I'm pro-choice and pro-informed consent euthanasia. So like....no you can't kill your disabled kids. If your mom is old an dying and in her right mind and wants to end it.....I'm pretty okay with that.

I'm not okay with 3rd trimester elective abortions.... but like sometimes shit happens? I don't even know. The story in the OP sounds bullshit but it's maybe an interesting thought exercise.

Maybe fetuses feel pain after 20 weeks? That could be why some people would be okay with an 8 week abortion but not a 30 week one. Or the heartbeat thing, or the "could possibly be viable outside the womb" thing, or they're just arbitrary for no reason (can you have a good reason to be arbitrary? I don't know!) or whatever.

Regardless, my stance on abortion is I wish they didn't happen. I think they should be legal and freely available. I think we should focus more on prevention of unwanted pregnancies.

[BelieveinScience]

Personally, I think that euthanizing someone without knowing their will could be anti-choice in a way, because one is making decisions for another human being's body. This is speaking in broad generalities, and there are so many gray areas when you are talking about suffering children who have never had to ability to speak for themselves. I know of a child who lost his battle with cancer because there were two recurrences and on the second one, he said he did not want to fight anymore. That was his choice and he was able to make it, and he was old enough to know the consequences which obviously were death. When a child cannot speak for themselves, it becomes very complicated. Euthanasia is not legal in the US, which is an important point to consider. In countries where it is legal, there is immense infrastructure and procedures that are followed.

But this cannot be confused with whether a person should be required to sacrifice for another. Pregnancy is a sacrifice with immense physical, emotional and social complications, and every woman deserves to make this decision alone. Like the child with constantly recurring cancer, only they know what they can take and how much they are willing to sacrifice.

There was a time when I was what I call "baby pro-choice". That is, I knew on a deep level that we deserve bodily autonomy, but I had a hard time with the naive, destructive idea that I could determine what is the right choice for other people. It's important to get over that, and I am glad that so many people pointed out the logical inconsistencies and pure hubris that were muddying the picture. It's very clear when you get to the heart of it: My body, my choice. It's not just a slogan, but a statement of exactly how sacred life is.

That's how I feel too thanks for putting everything so eloquently.

[BelieveinScience]

There's a big difference between aborting a pregnancy and euthanizing a disabled child. In one case, it's inside of my body and in the other case it isn't.

But yeah, it's amazing how everyone who is anti-abortion just happens to know a friend of a friend that experienced these ridiculous stories. It sounds like this person was lying, big surprise there.

Just to clarify the person who made the comment about life is sacred when referencing the 30 week old fetus but was okay with euthanizing the disabled adults/kids was not the person who "knows the person who works at PP who happens to know about this case" which I agree with everyone when saying the PP story is complete bull shit.