Ingrained sexism in nonfundie women?

[YPestis]

Women have come a long way since the 1960's. We have females in every level of political office and even a serious presidential contender. Heck, even the right wing have come out with their NEW strong, conservative women. But when Palin was running, there were still grumblings about how she can head a country when she have FIVE KIDS OMG. We all know what Bachmann said about her headship.....The Mormon church, with their emphasis on family, still considers a woman's highest calling to be stay at home mom.

Why do people still cling onto these old fashioned views on women so tightly even as we shed racism? Is it because letting black people become lawyers don't threaten people as much as letting women have jobs? In this country, people more easily embrace the idea of racial equality than sexual equality.

My theory is that sexism exists because so many mainstream women still embrace these attitudes. For some women, the homemaker/breadwinner model means a lifetime of financial "ease" (with the right husband), a less stressful home life (no duo careers). I think it's this idealization which prevents some women from supporting working mothers/ambitious wives, even as they mouth platitude on women's "choice".

I went to a selective college who took pride in their graduate school acceptance rate. However, even among my very liberal girlfriends, I saw quite a few fantasize the life of a comfortable SAHM. I had one roommate say she wanted to marry a doctor like her father, so she can have the lifestyle her mother enjoys (her words!). Another girl, my best friend, told everyone that while she wanted an interesting career, she was more focused on being a mom. I saw her downgrade her career choices as they edged closer to marriage and children. Neither could understand why I wanted to be a fulltime working mom. A third (nonfundie) friend even said she didn't believe a woman could be a good mother while working fulltime.

Fast forward ten years, the first friend is still working fulltime, now with a young child. The second friend is now the breadwinner after her husband's long bout of unemployment. It just behooves me that two, bright young girls wasted their 20's waiting/looking for the "right husband", not caring about their careers. Now, they are forced to work because Prince Charming did not come with a six figure salary. I feel it's not just fundies which reinforces sexist attitudes, it's people like my friends. Had either one met a husband with a better paying job, I feel like they would be the ones arguing against parental leave and child care subsidies.

We talk about fundies and right wingers taking away women's rights. However, I feel it's the mainstream women who ache for a traditional home life that can stand in the way. I feel their attitude can make it difficult to sympathize with working mothers (until they become one). No one listens to some fundie in Little House dresses. A nice suburban mom who has a graduate degree and LOVES to stay home and can't understand why no one else can? That's harder to combat.

I hope I hadn't offended anyone with my rant. I think women should have the choice of staying home or working, and especially the ability to interchange throughout their lifetime. I just find myself constantly fighting this attitude that my place, by default, is at my SO's side.

My SO and I recently had to come upon a difficult career decision. I was mortified when my own mother hinted strongly that I should make the decision to curtail my career in support of my SO. Yes, he's more successful right now---but unfair since he's at the tail end of his residency. I also have an M.D....where's my dutiful wife? :| I also have potential! My mom was always a supporter of working women. But her answer made me realize there's still a deeply ingrained sexism in the most surprising places.

[smores]

I don't know that it's always sexism. I know there are a lot of people who look back at their childhoods fondly, when their moms were SAHMs and did a lot with them. They think, "I had a good childhood, I want that for my child." Similarly, I know of friends with working mothers whose mothers didn't make time for them, and they think they can change that as a SAHM and provide a better childhood for their children. It's just that traditionally, it has been cheaper for moms to stay at home since even now, male workers make more; thus, the SAHM mindset has carried down even for those who are educated.

I think there is sexism towards stay at home dads, though; a lot of it comes from SAHMs. I think that needs to stop.

[Anise]

As a society, there are still vast inequalities between men and women and sexist ideologies keeping this hegemonic relationship in place. I think people simply absorb these ideas and reflect them without ever questioning or being aware of them. Fundies just take it to an extreme.

[freejoytoo]

Not to do with SAHMs, but a lot of women I know who are generally very liberal really dislike women having casual sex and think it's disgusting.

[Austin]

YPestis, I totally agree. Although "we've come a long way, baby", in my view, we are often our own worst enemy. The patriarchal system that we all exist within doesn't help, but women do not help themselves when they do not support other women's choices, no matter what they are. The "mommy wars", for instance, are a symptom of this problem.

Feminism, beyond putting forth the truth that woman are human beings, too, is about choice and defines no specific choice as ideal or "right". When women tear each other down for their choices, we hurt our own cause.

[Knight of Ni]

I've encountered this as well. i majored in chemistry in undergrad and there was a fellow chemistry major who said that she would have no problem being a SAHM/SAHW. She would say she wanted her husband to take care of her so she could sit at home all day and never go to work. She was planning on going to pharmacy school at the time so some of that talk may have just been longing to be done with a hard major and have it easy. Basically a reaction to being overwhelmed by work. I'll admit I even sometimes thought that lifestyle would be nice as I was trying to get through my upper level science courses. But then I would remember how rewarding it would be to accomplish my goals that I had set and not give up just because something was hard. For me a career to keep me occupied would be far more rewarding than to be a "kept woman."

[Anise]

Feminism, beyond putting forth the truth that woman are human beings, too, is about choice and defines no specific choice as ideal or "right". When women tear each other down for their choices, we hurt our own cause.

QTF

[doggie]

Because people chance slowly. each generation Changes the attitude and it gets a better. things have changed so fast compared to history. it is education of the new generations that changes it.

[Cordelia]

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to be a stay at home mom. My cousin is a kick ass SAHM. That is what makes her happy. It's her choice, only meant for her and her family.

I consider myself a feminist, and plan on being a working mother, which is also a valid choice.

However, I have moved twice now so that my fiance can advance his career. Once because we wanted to live together and it made more sense. Where he lived had more job opportunities. We have since moved to an area where I wanted to live, but he found a job first. He is loving it and can see himself growing in his new company. I am thrilled for him. He has a plan, and an ultimate goal (PhD and possibly teaching).

I am still looking for a job. I also just see it as a job. I don't have huge career plans. I just want something where I can think, and I don't hate my coworkers. I am perfectly ok with that. I work to live not live to work. Again, that's my choice.

[eohiken]

Women are often the best policing factor for sexism, by criticizing ourselves and other women is a powerful and yet invisible tool of oppression. Sexism is more than just a man (or group of men) discriminating against a women (or group of women) because of her sex. It's more noticeable on the fringe/extreme, but it can also seem very innocuous looking and minor. That's why feminists get accused of being shrill harpies all the time, making little things such a big deal, but really it's the little things that add up that cause the biggest problems.

[kpmom]

Yeah, look at Dr. Laura and TTH (assuming she is a she). Much as I can't stand sexism from men, it's even harder to hear from women.

[YPestis]

I understand that some people prefer being SAHM and I think it's great. I hope I didn't come off sounding like SAHM are the problem because they are not. What I'm "harping" (LOL) about is the idea that, by default, women should play second fiddle to the husband.

For people to support of female breadwinners, it's usually "well, I make far more than him" or "I'm a lawyer at a high powered firm and he's the paralegal so I have more potential". It's a clear cut decision. The men's career usually takes priority if there's no clear financial incentive otherwise, regardless of best fit (i.e woman is better at her job, may end up making more).

In my case, my SO is going to make more than me (most likely). I understand that. However, I feel the fact he's also male adds on the pressure that I'm going to follow him around and make the sacrifice. Had the situation reversed and I had more income potential, I don't think there would be as much pressure for him to follow me. My SO is supportive of my career but the rest of the family is....less sanguine. I'd have to be a surgeon to make them think my career is worthy of some sacrifice on his part. I guess I haven't come a long way, huh.

[Austin]

I understand that some people prefer being SAHM and I think it's great. I hope I didn't come off sounding like SAHM are the problem because they are not. What I'm "harping" (LOL) about is the idea that, by default, women should play second fiddle to the husband.

For people to support of female breadwinners, it's usually "well, I make far more than him" or "I'm a lawyer at a high powered firm and he's the paralegal so I have more potential". It's a clear cut decision. The men's career usually takes priority if there's no clear financial incentive otherwise, regardless of best fit (i.e woman is better at her job, may end up making more).

In my case, my SO is going to make more than me (most likely). I understand that. However, I feel the fact he's also male adds on the pressure that I'm going to follow him around and make the sacrifice. Had the situation reversed and I had more income potential, I don't think there would be as much pressure for him to follow me. My SO is supportive of my career but the rest of the family is....less sanguine. I'd have to be a surgeon to make them think my career is worthy of some sacrifice on his part. I guess I haven't come a long way, huh.

I don't think you came across as thinking SAHMs were a problem.

I do find it interesting that women who are the main breadwinners in their families seem to need to explain it. As you mention, "well, I make far more than him" or whatever. Men never need to explain why they're working and their wives are home with the kids. That's one way we know there's still a problem. And as another poster said, those of us who point it out get the "shrill" label.

[freejoytoo]

I find that women who don't have children need to explain themselves and it has to be something more than 'I don't want children'.

[Shirley MacLaine]

We have to explain everything. Why children, why not. Why abortion, why not. Why working, why not.

[BelieveinScience]

I find that women who don't have children need to explain themselves and it has to be something more than 'I don't want children'.

Women/Men shouldn't really have to explain themselves for things like working and having kids. I don't want a baby I have no desire to have a baby and people question me about it. I want to do adopt a toddler or older child with HIV/AIDS but my friends think I'm nuts for not wanting to skip the baby phase.

[kpmom]

We have to explain everything. Why children, why not. Why abortion, why not. Why working, why not.

Amen sister! Just tell 'em to stfu!

[freejoytoo]

Women/Men shouldn't really have to explain themselves for things like working and having kids. I don't want a baby I have no desire to have a baby and people question me about it. I want to do adopt a toddler or older child with HIV/AIDS but my friends think I'm nuts for not wanting to skip the baby phase.

I mentioned this on another forum and a poster said from her experience most women who don't have children regret it later in life! What rubbish!

[Shirley MacLaine]

Amen sister! Just tell 'em to stfu!

Exactly! It's important to look critically at our own choices, because it's not like any of them are made in some kind of patriarchy-free vacuum, but fuck feeling like you have to justify your life.

[ADoyle90815]

Yeah, look at Dr. Laura and TTH (assuming she is a she). Much as I can't stand sexism from men, it's even harder to hear from women.

There was also a talk published by the Mormon church relatively recently that was given by Julie Beck called "Mothers who Know" that basically reiterated the church's teaching that mothers are better if they stay at home. Ms. Beck is a well known Mormon woman who gave that speech at some conference in 2007.

[deelaem]

YPestis, I totally agree. Although "we've come a long way, baby", in my view, we are often our own worst enemy. The patriarchal system that we all exist within doesn't help, but women do not help themselves when they do not support other women's choices, no matter what they are. The "mommy wars", for instance, are a symptom of this problem.

Feminism, beyond putting forth the truth that woman are human beings, too, is about choice and defines no specific choice as ideal or "right". When women tear each other down for their choices, we hurt our own cause.

QFT

[Austin]

I mentioned this on another forum and a poster said from her experience most women who don't have children regret it later in life! What rubbish!

And even if it was true, so what? Part of having choices is living with the results of them. Women are adults and we are no less able to live with our choices than men are.

BTW, I am certainly not saying that it is true (I know it is not), but the paternalistic attitude that we have to be protected from our own "bad" decisions drives me nuts.

[Shirley MacLaine]

And even if it was true, so what? Part of having choices is living with the results of them. Women are adults and we are no less able to live with our choices than men are.

BTW, I am certainly not saying that it is true (I know it is not), but the paternalistic attitude that we have to be protected from our own "bad" decisions drives me nuts.

PREACH.

[BelieveinScience]

And even if it was true, so what? Part of having choices is living with the results of them. Women are adults and we are no less able to live with our choices than men are.

BTW, I am certainly not saying that it is true (I know it is not), but the paternalistic attitude that we have to be protected from our own "bad" decisions drives me nuts.

This!

[Nesomja]

I sometimes fantasized about a life as a SAHM when I was studying and working. Then I had children and realised that being at home with them was much harder than any job I have done. I really hate the depiction of staying home with kids as fun and rewarding and a relaxed life style, I think that is sexist as it completely undervalues the work women do. Now I work part time and I couldn't manage without it, it is my sanity time when I can drink a hot cup of coffee. I do feel like I am judged though, that people think I don't love my children enough to stay at home, whilst my husband never feels like that.