Patriarchy in old movies

[teddybear]

I am watching an old favorite, The Quiet Man, starring John Wayne and Maureen O'Hara. But as I watch I find myself increasingly distressed by the way women are treated in this movie. Maureen O'Hara is treated by her family and the community as a possession, first by her brother and then later by her husband. I know that we can't judge something from another time according to what you now know to be just and right, but still I find it upsetting. I find that more and more I feel this way when watching an old movie or tv show. Anyone else find this happening to you? And it isn't just about the way women are treated, but racist stuff and homophobia too.

[debrand]

My husband is a John Wayne fan and we've watched that movie several times. It always amazes me that his interaction with her was meant to be humorous. He drags her off a train, for goodness sake and an older lady offers him a stick to use against his wife. When I watch old movies, I try to keep in mind that they were made in a different time and just pick out the parts that I like. I don't remember if it was the Quiet Man or another movie with John Wayne in which he spanks his wife. Even as a child, I was surprised by that scene.

In some older movies, the man forces a kiss on the resisting woman and she suddenly melts.

I wonder what fundies think about the interaction of men and women in old films. At least in modern movies, a forced kiss is considered wrong.

[anniebgood]

I don't remember if it was the Quiet Man or another movie with John Wayne in which he spanks his wife. Even as a child, I was surprised by that scene.

The spanking scene was in McClintock, which is really one of my favorite John Wayne movies with a very young Stephanie Powers and Jerry Van Dyke. The character of Katie (Kathryn) was a real bitch. Not that it excuses the spanking but in the mindset of the time, it might have fit in better than today.

[twin2]

Not old movies, but old advertisements

http://my-retrospace.blogspot.com/2008/ ... t-ads.html:

[VodouDoll]

I remember being appalled when I saw Father Goose with Cary Grant. A woman and her students are shipwrecked on his island. After he slaps her across the face, she starts wearing skirts and acting submissive to him. After he slaps her a second time, she marries him. It's all played like it's supposed to be hilarious. I watched that movie on tv when I was in my early teens and was horrified.

[Lainey]

I'm always surprised by how risque old movies are. I watched "Breakfast at Tiffany's" last year, and was amazed at the storyline.

ETA: Occasionally, in my city's more conservative paper, some rich old white man writer will rant about how men are portrayed as idiots on television these days, whereas the wife is portrayed as the sensible one. I always wonder if they ever complained about shows like "I Love Lucy."

[clibbyjo]

A friend and I were just discussing "The Little Rascals" yesterday. I LOVED them as a girl and couldn't wait for my kids to see them. I bought a tape and couldn't believe how racist they were.(little while kids ride the rides, little black kids work the rides ) I didn't remember anything like that and it was ruined for me and I decided not to let the kids watch it. Some old cartoons are like that as well. Now my kids are older so we can discuss topics like that as they come up. If my daughter sees an old movie with a woman acting stupid and submissive, she gets furious.I have also pointed out the "stupid,bumbling husband who cannot do anything vs. his perfect wife who has to do everything for him" scenerio so my boys know that is not acceptable either.

[MamaJunebug]

I don't like anybody being portrayed as fools, gender and skin color/nose shape/eyelid variations notwithstanding.

I also love/hate The Quiet Man and McClintock ... but have persuaded myself that the only way filmmakes could show mouthy, rebellious, independent women, back in the day, was if a good man (the Duke) reined in the spirited li'l filly. :rolleyes:

I know that a lot of people disdain the recent Amy Adams film, "Leap Year," for being predictable and trite. I *love* it, in large part because it reminds me of an enlightened "The Quiet Man." There's way more mutual respect between the two characters, and the hot Irish guy wouldn't think of raising his hand to the hot gal.

And O'Hara and Adams are both great gingers, the luckies!!!!!!! :D

[Boogalou]

Although I absolutely adore I Love Lucy I sometimes cringe when I watch it. I have noticed that a lot of the sexism seems to be far more prominent in earlier episodes and I wonder if the show got somewhat more progressive in later years or if it is just coincidental. Has anyone else noticed that (you might have to watch it as religiously as I do to see that though)?

[lilwriter85]

I have watched McClintock years ago with my dad who is Wanye fan and I found the spanking scene to be disturbing.

[apple1]

My husband is a John Wayne fan, and I have see those movies many times.

I actually like the movie McClintock, but every time I see it, I think, they could have come up with something a lot better than that spanking scene; it bothers me, too. I do think it *somewhat* reflected the times, but still...

[kb2]

I'm always surprised by how risque old movies are. I watched "Breakfast at Tiffany's" last year, and was amazed at the storyline.

ETA: Occasionally, in my city's more conservative paper, some rich old white man writer will rant about how men are portrayed as idiots on television these days, whereas the wife is portrayed as the sensible one. I always wonder if they ever complained about shows like "I Love Lucy."

I like to watch old Hitchcock shows and the Twilight Zone, where they show married couples' bedrooms as having two twin beds. But then the storylines often involve extra-marital affairs! They are subtle about it, I guess kids wouldn't know what was going on, but any adults watching it could be happily scandalized.

I watched "Firefox" the other day. There are scenes where it looks like the movie is trying to say that you shouldn't have stereotypes of Native Americans/Indians, and then other scenes where it re-stereotypes them. I find it weird when that happens--you get the feeling a movie/book/whatever was ahead of its time, but it hasn't quite caught up to yours.

[masagoroll]

I've seen The Quiet Man and McClintock, too! I saw them first as a kid. I love the actors, hated the misogyny! I think even at the time, I thought "Why would he spank her? Grownups don't actually do that..."

Another movie that I enjoyed other than SLAPPING misogyny was Young Bess with Jean Simmons and Stewart Granger. It was about Queen Elizabeth I and it was a really good movie, but at one part the guy who is supposed to be her main love interest slaps her across the face! WTF?

[duplessis3]

My 14 yr old son and I watch the old Dick Van Dyke series together, and have had a lot of constructive conversation (beyond the "where the hell is Ritchie?!") about the gender roles in the show. Dick laments occasionally that he can't bring himself to spank his son or be the lord and master of his home. They sleep in twin beds too - but with all the smooching going on, you know Laura and Rob were getting plenty from each other.

[FireIsCatching89]

I don't know about old movies so much, but I know that growing up in my house, there were a couple banned classic Disney movies, namely Peter Pan for their stereotypes of Native Americans and the whole Wendy/Tinkerbell Madonna/Whore thing, and Bambi for its ability to traumatize anyone under the age of ten. And the Little Mermaid, but that was because Ursula gave me nightmares and not because of the problematic gender depictions (mostly about Ursula...a woman with power being portrayed as overly sexual, fat, and evil! agh!). Beauty and the Beast and Pinocchio also have some....issues... Though, these sort of movies can be a great springboard for talking to children about gender roles and the like.

I also recall in True Grit, the Cohen Bros remake, some of the ooky sexual/patriarchy shiz between Matt Damon's character and Mattie Ross, like when he says he wanted to steal a kiss from her while she slept and switches her over his knee. She's too young to get a kiss from a grown man and WAY too old to be spanked without it taking on really gross overtones. I liked the movie, but when I saw it with my father (who admittedly, gave me a swat on the bum once in a while, but not after I was six or seven), and the spanking scene made me INCREDIBLY uncomfortable. Like more uncomfortable than I felt watching Wedding Crashers with my brother and dad when I was 16.

I have to go cleanse myself now, I feel squicky.

[ladypuglover]

It's not just the movies but in the books too, in fiction and non fiction.... along with all the code words/verbs of fundy speak.

[debrand]

MamaJuneBug, I hate romantic movies but I loved Leap Year. The characters had to learn to respect and trust one another and I liked that. Plus, I've always wanted red hair.

Boogalou, I enjoy I Love Lucy also but it used to annoy me that she was treated like a child by her husband. It used to amaze me that he could tell her that she couldn't work. It's been several years since I saw the show, but it wouldn't surprise me that the show grew less misogynistic as time passed. If my memory is correct, Ricky seemed less controlling in later episodes.

Like ClibbyJo, I point out to my children that the image of men as bumbling idiots and their wives as perfect, mature individuals is wrong. Somewhere I read that male writers still are the majority in the media and that they write such characters because they think that they appeal to women. I have no idea if this is true.

[emmiedahl]

We have Little Rascals here (dh had them before we married) but I discourage the kids from watching them. They *are* funny and cute, but they have some bad stuff. I like that the black people aren't invisible, like in most older sitcoms, but LR are only slightly less racist.

Don't get me started on the way Buckwheat's mother talks.

[Nothing2CHere]

In some older movies, the man forces a kiss on the resisting woman and she suddenly melts.

Did anyone else here ever have to read the book "Pamela"? Now, granted, that is WAY old (18th century), but I was an English major so I had to read it, and I HATED. Hate, hate, hate, hate, HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATED it! :angry-screaming: Actually, I don't know of anyone I went to school with who actually enjoyed that book.

I've tried to block any memory of that book from my mind, but to summarize, servant gal Pamela is constantly being chased around by her master, who keeps trying to rape her, but she is a Virtuous!Maiden! and therefore resists his advances, and is thusly rewarded later on in the book when her master finally admits that He!Loves!Her! and that is why he keeps trying to rape her, and suddenly, she loves him in return. It's the making of fundie wet dreams, I swear.

[ladypuglover]

Did anyone else here ever have to read the book "Pamela"? Now, granted, that is WAY old (18th century), but I was an English major so I had to read it, and I HATED. Hate, hate, hate, hate, HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATED it! :angry-screaming: Actually, I don't know of anyone I went to school with who actually enjoyed that book.

I've tried to block any memory of that book from my mind, but to summarize, servant gal Pamela is constantly being chased around by her master, who keeps trying to rape her, but she is a Virtuous!Maiden! and therefore resists his advances, and is thusly rewarded later on in the book when her master finally admits that He!Loves!Her! and that is why he keeps trying to rape her, and suddenly, she loves him in return. It's the making of fundie wet dreams, I swear.

I haven't ever read it but I have heard of it through other novels or non-fiction. Mixed reviews of those who had read it from what I gathered. My taste tends to run more toward Mark Twain's when reading old books anyway.

[Shina]

Did anyone else here ever have to read the book "Pamela"? Now, granted, that is WAY old (18th century), but I was an English major so I had to read it, and I HATED. Hate, hate, hate, hate, HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATED it! :angry-screaming: Actually, I don't know of anyone I went to school with who actually enjoyed that book.

I've tried to block any memory of that book from my mind, but to summarize, servant gal Pamela is constantly being chased around by her master, who keeps trying to rape her, but she is a Virtuous!Maiden! and therefore resists his advances, and is thusly rewarded later on in the book when her master finally admits that He!Loves!Her! and that is why he keeps trying to rape her, and suddenly, she loves him in return. It's the making of fundie wet dreams, I swear.

Ewwwww! I seriously kept a bottle of wine on hand to get me through Pamela this last term.

And I completely agree, the idea that Pammy's Virtuous Maidenhood TM reforming Mr. Rapist is the making of fundie dreams come true.

And now, off I got to vomit

[PBrooke]

Regarding True Grit - I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's the entire point of that scene. She's at an incredibly difficult age, and it's dangerous for her to be out there - young enough to be as vulnerable as a child, old enough for men to be leering at her. And Matt Damon's character is young enough that for him to be spanking a child who's not that much younger than he is, really, is showing his blustering insecurity. The relationship with the other guy (mind blanks at the moment, I'm on vacation on a iPad) works more because it's a more secure father-daughter sort of thing (albeit dysfunctional). Or maybe mentor-mentee. Anyway, the spanking - it's supposed to seem wrong, and uncomfortable.

[debrand]

Ewwwww! I seriously kept a bottle of wine on hand to get me through Pamela this last term.

And I completely agree, the idea that Pammy's Virtuous Maidenhood TM reforming Mr. Rapist is the making of fundie dreams come true.

And now, off I got to vomit

Didn't Felding write The History of Tom Jones partially because he hated Pamela? I might be wrong, but I think that I read that somewhere. If you've never read the book, Felding's novel is wonderful and very funny.

[Nothing2CHere]

Didn't Felding write The History of Tom Jones partially because he hated Pamela? I might be wrong, but I think that I read that somewhere. If you've never read the book, Felding's novel is wonderful and very funny.

I don't know if The History of Tom Jones had any connection to Pamela (since I never read it), but he did write Shamela, aka "An Apology for the Life of Mrs. Shamela Andrews," which was a direct reply to Pamela. That was also the only good thing about having to read Pamela in the first place; our professor had us read Shamela immediately afterwards.

[GenerationCedarchip]

Did anyone else here ever have to read the book "Pamela"? Now, granted, that is WAY old (18th century), but I was an English major so I had to read it, and I HATED. Hate, hate, hate, hate, HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATED it! :angry-screaming: Actually, I don't know of anyone I went to school with who actually enjoyed that book.

I've tried to block any memory of that book from my mind, but to summarize, servant gal Pamela is constantly being chased around by her master, who keeps trying to rape her, but she is a Virtuous!Maiden! and therefore resists his advances, and is thusly rewarded later on in the book when her master finally admits that He!Loves!Her! and that is why he keeps trying to rape her, and suddenly, she loves him in return. It's the making of fundie wet dreams, I swear.

Oh, I loathed that book. Looking back, I'm surprised it wasn't in our church library because they had all kinds of books with similar themes. My old fundie church youth group was definitely into the "Girls need to be good and modest or else you'll tempt a boy to rape you" teachings.