The Niqab, a sign of devotion or oppression?

[emmiedahl]

Mine don't, but I have to show ID when I use them.

[Alecto]

Showing ID to use a credit card is actually against the merchant agreement for Visa and Mastercard... I don't know about Discover or American Express.

[freejoytoo]

So do I. I'm creeped out by niquabs and burkas. On the other hand I barely notice women wearing hijabs anymore.

In my mind someone wearing a niquab is akin to sending a giant middle finger to society.

That's incredibly offensive. Niquab-wearers aren't putting them to offend anyone or impose their views - it's an expression of their religion. How is that affecting you? We live in a multicultural society.

I personally find the reasoning behind them oppressive but I don't for a moment think that someone wearing them is trying to enforce their views on me.

[emmiedahl]

Showing ID to use a credit card is actually against the merchant agreement for Visa and Mastercard... I don't know about Discover or American Express.

It might be because I write SEE ID in big letters on my credit card's signature line. Purse snatching and identity theft is a real issue in my town. But you're right, I had not considered that many people just sign them.

[Alecto]

It might be because I write SEE ID in big letters on my credit card's signature line. Purse snatching and identity theft is a real issue in my town. But you're right, I had not considered that many people just sign them.

And writing SEE ID is technically violating your cardmember agreement, though no one enforces that one ;)

[Bella99]

And writing SEE ID is technically violating your cardmember agreement, though no one enforces that one ;)

And after having significant difficulty getting fraudulent charges reversed, I'll never sign the back of my card again. The gal who stole my card was a good forger.

[celestial]

Face covering, even partial, makes it hard to see microexpressions that are a huge part of communication. A lot of communication and expression comes from the muscles around your mouth.

I agree with this. I teach English to international students, and have a lot of students from Saudi Arabia. Many of the women cover their faces except eyes. At times, it is very difficult for me as their instructor to 'read' their level of understanding, comfort, etc. because their mouths are covered. It's their right to dress as they see fit, though, and my job to find a way to make sure they're learning, so I've become very attuned to reading the expression of the eyes only. It's harder than it sounds!

[meda]

the niqab bothers me the same way frumpers and faux - Amish head coverings on Christian women bother me. It's not actual modesty, it's a rather aggressive, often political statement about modesty. From the little I have read, many women who adopt either the niqab or frumper do so as a result of becoming more extreme or fundamentalist in their beliefs.

[valsa]

In my mind someone wearing a niquab is akin to sending a giant middle finger to society.

Funny, that's the exact same thing a fundie would say about a skirt that comes up above the knee.

[emmiedahl]

the niqab bothers me the same way frumpers and faux - Amish head coverings on Christian women bother me. It's not actual modesty, it's a rather aggressive, often political statement about modesty. From the little I have read, many women who adopt either the niqab or frumper do so as a result of becoming more extreme or fundamentalist in their beliefs.

I agree that this is the case with Christian fundies--there is no real tradition of headcovering in evangelical circles for example.

But Amish people as well as some Muslims and Jews have been raised in circles where it is the normal way to dress. It is entirely possible that they feel naked and uncomfortable without the covering. Their mothers, sisters and female role models all cover to some extent, that is what women do in their culture. If you had to spend time with the !Kung in Africa, would you continue to wear a shirt? I would, even if I was with a tribe that had not adopted Western dress. I would feel very uncomfortable going topless even though not doing so would make me conspicuous.

Or, maybe they read a certain passage in the Koran that states women should cover their heads and chests. We have at least member of FJ who does this for religious reasons. Not to piss anyone off, not because she is being oppressed, but because she personally feels it is an important part of her religious observance.

I am not saying that nobody ever adopts hijab as an aggressive political statement, only that it is very unfair to make that judgment on all people wearing it. I am against judging large groups of people in a negative manner with little grounding.

[Kitchen Princess]

Slightly off topic - it is interesting how reading peoples faces and eye contact - or the lack of eye contact - is so important in conversation.. But if you think about it you manage to interact on-line and by phone with people without these clues and it goes okay.

But there is no risk to my person if I am dealing with someone on the phone or online. When I am dealing with a stranger face to face, I have a biologic need to feel safe and be able to trust that person and believe they are sincere in their interaction with me. I use their appearance, including the whole of their face, to read all the signals they are putting off. It's ridiculous to think the eyes are the only expressive parts of the face.

My bank doesn't allow anyone in the bank with hats or sunglasses on. They want to be able to identify a person via the security cameras I'm sure, but anyone who walks in whose face is obscured in some way is automatically going to be suspect. I feel the same way about strangers when I can't really see their eyes or they are otherwise covered up. I do not walk around thinking everyone with a skull cap on is going to cause me harm, but my first instinct is not to trust them when I can't fully identify them, until I know better.

[meda]

I agree that this is the case with Christian fundies--there is no real tradition of headcovering in evangelical circles for example.

But Amish people as well as some Muslims and Jews have been raised in circles where it is the normal way to dress. It is entirely possible that they feel naked and uncomfortable without the covering. Their mothers, sisters and female role models all cover to some extent, that is what women do in their culture. If you had to spend time with the !Kung in Africa, would you continue to wear a shirt? I would, even if I was with a tribe that had not adopted Western dress. I would feel very uncomfortable going topless even though not doing so would make me conspicuous.

Or, maybe they read a certain passage in the Koran that states women should cover their heads and chests. We have at least member of FJ who does this for religious reasons. Not to piss anyone off, not because she is being oppressed, but because she personally feels it is an important part of her religious observance.

I am not saying that nobody ever adopts hijab as an aggressive political statement, only that it is very unfair to make that judgment on all people wearing it. I am against judging large groups of people in a negative manner with little grounding.

Good point, but that same poster has stated several times to other Muslim posters that the niqab is correct and other coverings are not modest. That strikes me as a fundamentalist belief, and more a modest that thou stance that we see often with the Christian fundies. To be clear, I fully support any woman's right to dress however she choses, and I do not support bans of niqabs or any other covering. But just as everyone has the right to make choices about religious expression (or lack there of) I also have the right to criticize. Fundamentalism is still worrying to me, whether it's Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist or other wise.

[Mama Mia]

The strong reaction people have is very interesting. I just don't get it. I very rarely have come across a woman who is fully covered, except in large shopping centers in the city near mine ... but I just don't understand the issue. I could see being reluctant to engage in random conversation -- but I would think that might be because I might assume ( possibly wrongly ) that they don't speak English, or that it might be against their rules somehow. Also, I don't like making conversation with random people in any case.

But threatened ? Why ? Same with head covering or frumpers or the guy with the tattooed face or the kid with the mohawk ... who cares ??

[valsa]

The strong reaction people have is very interesting. I just don't get it. I very rarely have come across a woman who is fully covered, except in large shopping centers in the city near mine ... but I just don't understand the issue. I could see being reluctant to engage in random conversation -- but I would think that might be because I might assume ( possibly wrongly ) that they don't speak English, or that it might be against their rules somehow. Also, I don't like making conversation with random people in any case.

But threatened ? Why ? Same with head covering or frumpers or the guy with the tattooed face or the kid with the mohawk ... who cares ??

I agree. Some people here are acting a lot like the fundies on this issue. It's something that does not affect them at all (at least not anymore than, say, gay marriage affects fundies) but it does seem to cause them to react in an odd, visceral way.

I mean, really? A piece of clothing is a middle finger to society, offends you and makes you angry, and violates your biological need to feel safe? Can you be more overdramatic?

[Renting with Raggles]

The hijab seems to me to be like any other religious headcovering. It's not an issue since men are often commanded to wear the same. The niqab obliterates a woman's identity, individuality and personality; there is no male equivalent so there is no way in which men and women can interact on a equal footing in society.

I'm also curious as to the people who claim that women who cover their faces are being independent, being 'known' for who they are rather than what they look like, because I've always noticed a distinct difference in the level of engagement between women who wear the niqab and those who merely cover their hair with society at large. Granted, this is mostly from observation in Western nations, but similarities have struck me in places like Dubai and India when I travel.

I've worked in schools in Australia and Britain with sizeable Muslim populations: the mothers/ girls who wear the hijab are just like any other women - they are active class participants, they go for coffee, work outside the home and have friends of many different backgrounds.

The mothers who cover their faces do not speak English and don't talk much in public in their first language, even with other women - in contrast to other recent immigrant groups, including my father's family. Some of my great aunts don't speak English but they are more than happy to tell you what's what in gesture - this is something I've never seen a niqab-wearer do. Their husbands will speak with me at parent-teacher conferences while they pull the second chair away from my table to sit silently, deliberately off to the side despite my attempts to smile and address them in the conversation (I do this for all parents who are non-English speaking, communicating their child's success/ my concerns through facial expression/ tone of voice - all other cultures I've encountered seem to appreciate this). I'm always baffled by this behaviour because it seems they find this very offensive when I'm trying to be courteous. Their girls refuse to participate in class, and are inevitably withdrawn from school at age 13 in any case. The older women don't frequent local cafes/ shops - they can't eat/ drink in public unless their husband is along with the long spoon and the extra modesty cloth to feed them like infants.

So yeah, I'm not for banning the burqa or niqab, but I'm bewildered as to how a garment that thoroughly prevents a woman from engaging in society as an adult can ever be considered empowering? If you're an Emily Dickenson shy type I'm sure they are really comforting/ secure - but that's not the same thing, is it?

[emmiedahl]

So yeah, I'm not for banning the burqa or niqab, but I'm bewildered as to how a garment that thoroughly prevents a woman from engaging in society as an adult can ever be considered empowering? If you're an Emily Dickenson shy type I'm sure they are really comforting/ secure - but that's not the same thing, is it?

I don't think it is empowering, I just think it is not a giant fuck-you to society.

[Renting with Raggles]

It's NOT oppression if a woman is choosing to wear it. If a woman is forced into it, then it is oppression, but when it's a choice it is liberating because I know that I am pleasing my Lord and also because I know that I am being judged based on who I am rather than how attractive I am.

I see a lot of comments like this whenever a 'ban the burqa' type discussion comes up. It's the whole 'freedom is slavery' mindset connected with face-covering that annoys me, just as much as the Christian fundie wifely submission thing. It is indeed a woman's choice, and should remain so. But I think it's rather ridiculous to adopt a lifestyle that prevents you from engaging with others in society and then expect people to judge you as an individual. If a woman has abdicated personal autonomy and adult responsibility that she has to be aired and fed like a 6 month old at her husband's pleasure then people are going to see her character as interchangeable and blank as the infant she resembles.

I don't think it is empowering, I just think it is not a giant fuck-you to society.

I absolutely agree, because I don't think it is freely chosen very often. If someone adopted the niqab deliberately it would be an effective tool for communicating a big 'fuck you' to the world at large, though.

[xReems]

I have a few muslim friends who wear a hijab but by choice and not by force. Unlike most black hijabs, my friends get the fashionable ones or decorate theirs with a variety of designs.

With that being said, I was talking to them regarding a burka and niqabs. For the most part, most mainstream Muslim women tend to wear hijabs but then there are those fundamentalists who prefer to do the full body covering. You will find more of those in the middle eastern countries, but a handful around the states.

I live in Georgia and there is this "Indian" mall not too far from my house where a lot of Muslim women like to go to. Once in a while I'll catch one or two women in full body coverings but that's it.

I really don't think wearing a niqab, burka, or hijab is a sign of oppression if it is worn by CHOICE and not forced or coerced into. There are muslim families who "make" their daughters wear a hijab after a certain age and then allow them to decide whether to continue it or not by the time they turn 18.

[Maul the Koala]

We don't have many women who wear the niqab here. I know there are places that ban wearing hoods or things that obscure the face inside of their businesses. I wonder how that would be handled. I don't think it's ever come up here.

I'm a bit fuzzy on the requirements of clothes along with the hijab. I've been seeing some of the younger girls wearing skin-tight jeans and tight tops along with the hijab. Is that okay? I always thought the clothes had to be a bit loose. I could be completely wrong on that though.

[CanadianHippie]

I see a lot of comments like this whenever a 'ban the burqa' type discussion comes up. It's the whole 'freedom is slavery' mindset connected with face-covering that annoys me, just as much as the Christian fundie wifely submission thing. It is indeed a woman's choice, and should remain so. But I think it's rather ridiculous to adopt a lifestyle that prevents you from engaging with others in society and then expect people to judge you as an individual. If a woman has abdicated personal autonomy and adult responsibility that she has to be aired and fed like a 6 month old at her husband's pleasure then people are going to see her character as interchangeable and blank as the infant she resembles.

Well, freedom is not freedom if you aren't free to chose it (as in it is foisted on you rather than offered). I think it's ridiculous to assume a woman in a burqa or niqab is not capable of fully engaging in society when it is societies reaction to the clothing and not the clothing themselves that alienate the person. A woman in a niqab is fully capable of being her own independent person, voicing her own views, and having her own personality; but you aren't going to know that if you see face covering and think "not engaged in society as an individual".

Face coverings are rare here, but even so I have interacted with a woman wearing one and she was just as much an individual as someone wearing western style clothes. Don't blame someone for your inability to overcome your own judgments of them.

[CanadianHippie]

I'm a bit fuzzy on the requirements of clothes along with the hijab. I've been seeing some of the younger girls wearing skin-tight jeans and tight tops along with the hijab. Is that okay? I always thought the clothes had to be a bit loose. I could be completely wrong on that though.

Requirements are what the person feels the requirements are. Just because someone believes they need to be covered, doesn't mean they believe the shape of their body needs to be hidden.

[Alecto]

I can only speak for the very small Muslim community I have interacted with, but it seems to me that most Muslim women I know have parents who would throw a fit if their daughter started wearing niqab. We don't have anyone who wears it.

That being said, coming from a background where I have toyed with becoming a plain Quaker, I am sure that some would say the same about those who dress plain. I think some people have on a spiritual level the desire to be set apart from the world. It's nothing new - back in tribal religions, the medicine man, seer or sage frequently lived apart from the rest of the tribe.

I guess I have a hard time being offended by someone else's choices in clothing so long as they don't want to force me to conform to their ideas.

Also - as for the tight clothes and hijab? By definition, showing the form of your body for a man or woman is not considered hijab. As one of my lovely Muslim friends said to me, "It's not a matter of right, wrong or better, but simply a certain style of dress falls under the definition of hijab per the Prophet."

[Maul the Koala]

Also - as for the tight clothes and hijab? By definition, showing the form of your body for a man or woman is not considered hijab. As one of my lovely Muslim friends said to me, "It's not a matter of right, wrong or better, but simply a certain style of dress falls under the definition of hijab per the Prophet."

That makes sense. I'll have to ask one of my friends about it. She doesn't wear the hijab or keep the 'modesty' requirements per se but I'm interested in what she has to say. It completely slipped my mind until this thread.

Edit: I always wondered because a couple of Muslims I knew would openly mock those girls that wore the hijab but decided to wear skin tight clothing with it, saying it completely defeated the purpose of wearing the hijab itself.

[Renting with Raggles]

I think it's ridiculous to assume a woman in a burqa or niqab is not capable of fully engaging in society when it is societies reaction to the clothing and not the clothing themselves that alienate the person. A woman in a niqab is fully capable of being her own independent person, voicing her own views, and having her own personality; but you aren't going to know that if you see face covering and think "not engaged in society as an individual".

Well, if you read my first post, from my experience in Britain, Australia and India, I try to engage with women wearing the niqab as I do every parent, but they are evidently forbidden to interact with me. I would be very interested to hear their views, but they will not speak to me. I work in international schools and my manners are never construed as offensive by any other national/ religious/ cultural group. Saying 'Good Evening, Mrs X, Mr X, please sit down! I'm sure you want to hear all about Child X's progress this semester.' in a warm tone with a smile isn't generally a cue for the mother to look away, drag the chair across from me five feet back and refuse offers to hearing about her child's education directly/ through an interpreter. This is what the ladies who cover their faces do in Britain and Australia.

All the women in niqabs that I've had any experience with cannot engage with the world as any other group, including moderate Muslim women who wear the hijab. I don't see how one can be called independent in any meaningful sense, if their dress-standard prevents them from:

- 1/ Buying food and eating it whenever they feel hungry - this has the added effect of preventing freedom of movement, if they can't consume a meal in public without assistance from their husbands. I have watched a woman in India wait 30 minutes in scorching summer heat for her husband to return to the doctor's waiting room so that he could hold up a cloth while she got herself a drink of water, when the rest of us could help ourselves whenever we chose. I admit that my reaction to the long handled feeding spoons and the baby-bib modesty cloths reflect my cultural bias. I'm sure there are some women who enjoy being helpless and fed baby-bird style by their husbands. I'm sure their are Western body-modification enthusiasts who would have their hands surgically removed so that they could enjoy this lifestye as well. Are there that many fetishists out there that woud freely choose such a thing? I doubt it.

- 2/ Communicating with others - as I said, many of my relatives come from non-English speaking backgrounds - they can make themselves understood through gesture, expression and tone. The niqab-wearing women cannot (apparently) even bow their head in response to a shop-girl's 'Have a good day!' because it violates modesty standards. What would happen if their car broke down? How do they return merchandise to a store? Being independent means being able to move freely in society.

Face coverings are rare here, but even so I have interacted with a woman wearing one and she was just as much an individual as someone wearing western style clothes. Don't blame someone for your inability to overcome your own judgments of them.

I'm glad your aquaintance was not so restricted as the women I have seen. But doesn't that make her niqab rather similar to the Duggar girls' fire-fighting skirts? In that case, yes, she probably chose her lifestyle - and in that case, I will judge her, as I'd judge the decisions of the Duggars' or the woman who cut off her hands. But I don't judge the mothers at my schools, because I don't believe they had any say in the matter of the modesty standards they have to live by.

[CanadianHippie]

So a woman making an informed choice about her own preferences when it comes to living by her religion are worth negative judgment because they don't go along with what you think she should be doing? You know there is this thing called oppression right? And that a woman wearing a niqab or only wearing skirts because they have chosen to do it themselves is not being oppressed right? And that a woman who is not doing what she feels is right because someone decided for her that she can't do it is being oppressed right?

Maybe these women don't talk to you because they can pick up on your obvious disdain for the choices they have made.