Is there a strong connection between Paganism and Feminism?

[finleeport]

I've never heard of any Goddesses or Priestesses in the Abrahamic religions; although in Christianity, there is the Virgin Mary who has many similarities to the Goddess. There was a site called 'Thinking in Christ' saying that Feminism is a Pagan thing and that the bible never treated its women unkindly, they even used this to justify it; The truth is that it is only within a Judeo-Christian worldview that women can be “happy.†But can we back this contention up from the Scriptures? What about Genesis chapters 34 and 35?

 

Now Dinah the daughter of Leah, whom she had borne to Jacob, went out to see the women of the land. And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, the prince of the land, saw her, he seized her and lay with her and humiliated her. -Genesis 34:1-2

 

Typical, right? A man in the Scriptures treating a woman as if she’s just an object. To make matters even worse, Hamor, Shechem’s father, treats her —and all the other women in their communities— as bargaining chips for wealth and power. They essentially offer to buy Dinah in a bid to gain all of Jacob’s wealth. Dinah’s brothers also treat her as a bargaining chip to gain revenge over Shechem. In the next chapter, Reuben uses Bilhah as an object to gain power.

 

But when we really look back over these two chapters, we find the theme is a little deeper than what we first imagine. This isn’t about men abusing women, but assimilation into the larger culture. In fact, all of these acts are placed within the context of Jacob’s family assimilating into the pagan society around them. While the women are treated horribly, their treatment is used to illustrate the depths to which Jacob’s family is assimilating. As if to push this point home, the specific offer Hamor makes to Jacob is assimilation —â€come and be one people with us through intermarriage.â€

 

God doesn’t approve of the way these women are treated. This way of treating women, as objects, is part and parcel of the system of worship around Jacob’s family, a system of idols and false gods they are slowly assimilating in to. Those who follow God are supposed to be shocked at the mistreatment of the women in these two chapters, to see this mistreatment as a sign of low morals. Feminist who blame Christianity for the treatment of women as objects have the problem precisely backwards. It is paganism that treats women as objects. It should be no surprise that as our culture has become increasingly centered on the worship of those idols we’ve created for ourselves —fame, wealth, and sensation— that women should increasingly be treated as object.

 

If you want to solve the problems supposedly addressed by feminism, you have to run away from the fundamental tenants of feminism itself, away from a culture and worldview that treats all humans as objects, and towards a worldview and culture that treats people as people, made in the image of God.

 

 

I've read books by Marion Bradley Zimmer that says just the opposite.

[Crackedeggs]

Depends on what branch of Paganism you are talking about. Dianic? hell yes. Wicca? Yes. Asatura? Uh.. no. Ceremonial? Kind of irrelevant there, but IMHO needed, the men in that tend to be overbearing assholes. (yes, I'm generalizing, shoot me...but in general, I've seen that)

[finleeport]

I was wondering if this story I am writing on would be a good Feminist/Pagan/Christian story. I'm still working on it but here is what I have so far, in a summary;

'There was a far away country that held many beliefs of the Goddess and the Virgin Mary, but some years later a Patriarchal Puritan religion came to that country and weeded out the Catholics and Pagans and destroyed their 'Divine Queens'. One mother died giving birth to an independent and stubborn girl beneath a statue of the Virgin Mary/Goddess. The girl's father was a strict Puritan but did have a soft side for his daughter. Until he married again to a homely unkind woman who had 2 beautiful but self-righteous daughters trained in homemaking and scripture. The father died from an illness, some say it was a curse from God because he didn't trained his daughter to be obedient and meek. The stepmother married again, as is a custom in the new religion for a widow to marry again, to a slow-witted but rough and harsh Pastor who also had 2 harsh 'manly' sons. The women of this religion were looked down and often called 'daughters of serpents' women distrusted other women, which is one of the reasons the stepmother is cruel even to her own kind, but especially towards her stepdaughter; while her own daughters were trained in chores, meekness and manners, the stepdaughter was independent and 'unfeminine'. The stepfather disliked his wife's stepdaughter more than she did; he would strap her with his belt until she was bloody. Even the stepmother and stepsisters would insult her in front of their community. They threaten her that if she does not marry her stepfather chooses, she will be sent to a brothel; but if she runs away they will slander her as a thief and criminal and have chased by dogs. Everywhere the girl turned, she saw images of Jezebels, burning witches, Eve eating an apple from the serpent, Potiphar's wife seducing Joseph, the Whore of Babylon. It frighten and grieved her and she ran into a forest where she bumped into the statue of the Goddess/Virgin Mary and wept beside it. Just as she was about to give in, she felt tears falling on her head, she saw the statue weeping. and out the dark she saw an old pagan witch dressed in black and in the company of owls and black cats. She was frighten but the witch helped her in a fairy-godmother way. But when the girl turned around to thank the witch, her carriage was flying by winged animals. There in the clouds she saw the shape of the Queen of Heaven, smiling and winking at her'.

[Guest Anonymous]

One mother died giving birth to an independent and stubborn girl beneath a statue of the Virgin Mary/Goddess. The girl's father was a strict Puritan but did have a soft side for his daughter. Until he married again to a homely unkind woman who had 2 beautiful but self-righteous daughters trained in homemaking and scripture. The father died from an illness, some say it was a curse from God because he didn't trained his daughter to be obedient and meek. The stepmother married again, as is a custom in the new religion for a widow to marry again, to a slow-witted but rough and harsh Pastor who also had 2 harsh 'manly' sons. The women of this religion were looked down and often called 'daughters of serpents' women distrusted other women, which is one of the reasons the stepmother is cruel even to her own kind, but especially towards her stepdaughter; while her own daughters were trained in chores, meekness and manners, the stepdaughter was independent and 'unfeminine'. The stepfather disliked his wife's stepdaughter more than she did; he would strap her with his belt until she was bloody. Even the stepmother and stepsisters would insult her in front of their community

I don't like to be a killjoy, but it is a bit too predictable. Why does the stepmother have to be homely and unkind? Why do the "manly" sons have to be harsh? Too many villains in my opinion. Think about the movie "Ever After" - there are only three villains and the "independent and stubborn" girl rescues the prince and herself! Even one of the stepsisters is sympathetic to the protagonist. What if the stepmother is pushed into her role, what if one of the sons is wrestling internally with his feelings for one of the stepsisters, why is the Pastor slow-witted (he'd be a much better villain if he was quick and observant)? The basic idea is good, but you have to flesh it out.

In the words of a dear friend, "Keep writing."

[valsa]

Deut. 22:23-29:

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Exodus 21:7:

7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do.

Judges 19:22-30:

22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, “Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him.â€

23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, “No, my friends, don’t be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don’t do this outrageous thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But as for this man, don’t do such an outrageous thing.â€

25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. 26 At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.

27 When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. 28 He said to her, “Get up; let’s go.†But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.

29 When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel. 30 Everyone who saw it was saying to one another, “Such a thing has never been seen or done, not since the day the Israelites came up out of Egypt. Just imagine! We must do something! So speak up!â€

Judges 21:10-14:

10 So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. 11 “This is what you are to do,†they said. “Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin.†12 They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.

13 Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. 14 So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them.

Judges 21:20-23:

20 So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, “Go and hide in the vineyards 21 and watch. When the young women of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, rush from the vineyards and each of you seize one of them to be your wife. Then return to the land of Benjamin. 22 When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, ‘Do us the favor of helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war. You will not be guilty of breaking your oath because you did not give your daughters to them.’â€

23 So that is what the Benjamites did. While the young women were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them.

Oh yeah, Christianity is great for women.

[valsa]

Also, feminism is not a "pagan thing". There were feminists in the U.S. long before being a pagan was something you would have announce publically. They were, you know, the ones getting us the right to vote, etc.

[emmiedahl]

I think that women have traditionally been viewed as inferior because they are generally weaker than men and also are disabled by childbearing throughout their lives. This has happened in almost all cultures, even indigenous, non-Western ones.

Feminism is a by-product of the modern world. There are many jobs in a post-industrial society that the average woman can perform as well or better than a man. We aren't warring with neighboring villages and tribes anymore in most places of the world so our lack of natural upper body strength is irrelevant. Birth control and abortion frees us from constant, debilitating, and life-threatening child-bearing.

In other words, I don't think there is a strong connection. Of course there are many, many kinds of paganism (it's impossible to paint them all with one brush), but if you look at Celtic, Roman, Greek, etc, pagan lives, women were treated very poorly in general.

[JesusFightClub]

Modern day paganism sometimes has a strong feminist streak. It wasn't a given in the olden days, as folk have pointed out ;)

Crackedeggs, I agree with you about ceremonial magicians. There seems to be something in that which leads to sexism. The few female practitioners I have known see themselves as "one of the lads" and almost not as women at all.

[Crackedeggs]

Modern day paganism sometimes has a strong feminist streak. It wasn't a given in the olden days, as folk have pointed out ;)

Crackedeggs, I agree with you about ceremonial magicians. There seems to be something in that which leads to sexism. The few female practitioners I have known see themselves as "one of the lads" and almost not as women at all.

Most of the cerimonialists I have known were insufferably egotistical, male and female. I agree with you, the males are still males, but the females become nearly sexless - like honorary males or something. I have my theories as to why, a lot of it having to do with the work of Crowley.

[Rosa]

Yeah, i just spent the weekend with mostly-naked pagans. Many pagans are feminists but there's no cause and effect and we're just as likely to fail at actual gender equity as anybody else. And these are supposedly egalitarian pagans, not any sort of traditionalists.

[nuri]

So were you at a festival or some other retreat type deal? PSG is in my neck of the woods now, but I had a bellydance convention to go to instead.

[Rosa]

Festival, but a lot smaller than PSG.

[keeperrox]

You've asked here several times about themes for your stories. Who do you write them for?

[Deleted12]

A friend of a friend is a feminist Pagan/Mormon.

She's all about the whole "mother in heaven" thing.

[JesusFightClub]

Most of the cerimonialists I have known were insufferably egotistical, male and female. I agree with you, the males are still males, but the females become nearly sexless - like honorary males or something. I have my theories as to why, a lot of it having to do with the work of Crowley.

*wants to know theories* :think:

Share? :)